SSJ/SSJ2 Gohan Discussion

[p123]

I want to try this out. Even if we have to change a few quotes around I don't mind. I think that Gohan's anger is supposed to be something special. I don't believe that it's merely transforming into Super Saiyan 2. That kills the whole story. Here's a couple things I'd like to play with, please play along and see if we can reasonably make it work. Not really trying to debate against the many points that might not work just yet. If we have to change just a couple of quotes we could...



Ok, heading into the Budokai, Gohan can indeed transform into Super Saiyan 2. He cannot tap into his full power, which is he enraged power. He was able to tap into his enraged power against Cell. His rage allows him to hit larger portions of his current potential. It's like a potential unlock more or less. His training in the ROSAT allowed him to focus his rage more, unlike ever before.

So. Gohan goes in the Buu Saga, capable of transforming Super Saiyan 2 at will. Let's roll with that and see what happens.

Gohan's "True Power" would be his enraged, all out power, which he CANNOT tap into, during the Buu Saga.

Now when we talked Enraged Teen Gohan and Enraged Kid Gohan, it seems crazy because Kid > Teen, but actually, Enraged Teen has more potential and would actually be much stronger than SSJ2 Goku. Hell, he might be getting within range to SSJ3 Goku if you consider his Z Sword training just allowing his to access his current maximum potential.

This makes Goku's comment about how Gohan is second to no one if he lets all of his power go like he did against Cell. Or he said, he wouldn't lose to anyone.

I like making Enraged Teen Gohan >> SSJ2 Goku with that in mind.

Imagine if Zeta Sword Gohan = Enraged Teen Gohan. What a monster. He's probably stronger than Base Gotenks and approaching Majin Buu level somewhat. Impressive as fuck.

This also plays into Vegeta's wary about a fully enraged Gohan. Sure, he's stronger. But he knows that fucking with Gohan is a dangerous gamble. This plays into the story much better than Gohan just turning Super Saiyan 2 imo.

Kaioshin's comments are retarded and need to be altered a bit, but all in all, I don't think I see any major issues with what Vegeta/Goku say other than the surprise the other has Super Saiyan 2. That ruins everything. But honestly, besides that, I don't see many issues as of now.

There might be an issue with the Tired Goku/Vegeta > Majin Buu > SSJ2 Gohan thing, but I'm not sure.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I think that Gohan's anger is supposed to be something special. I don't believe that it's merely transforming into Super Saiyan 2. That kills the whole story.

Super Saiyan 2 was supposed to be the manifestation of Gohan's rage. There was so much build up to that. AT later
turning it into a simple power up any Saiyan and their mommas could do, that's what killed the story and belittled the
importance of Gohan's rage.
Anyway, according to my headcanon, Gohan's SSJ2 had a greater multiplier than Goku's/Vegeta's, because of Gohan's
greater potential. At Buu Saga, Gohan had the same Base/SSJ1 PL as 7 years before, but, because of his lack of
training, he could not draw out all his SSJ2 power so easily. How much of it he could draw out depended on his
emotions. Alas, at 25th TB, where he was somewhat pissed (Spoppo vs Videl), he could access a greater part of
his SSJ2 power than he could against Dabura (hence the sparks at 25th TB and the lack of them against Dabura).
However, in both those cases, he could not use the full SSJ2 power he had used against Cell, when he was like
super pissed.
As for Gohan surpassing SSJ3 Goku, i think that's ridiculous. I prefer the SSJ2 Z Sword Gohan=SSJ2 Kid Gohan=Full
Potential Gohan theory. I guess, when Goku transformed into SSJ3, his potential was reset, so, in that form, he
could surpass his son, whose potential had remained the same because of slacking off (i have already explained
the difference between Current Potential, which can increase by training, and Lifelong Potential).
Lastly, Goku's statement about Gohan being the best if he gets mad reminds me of what i heard one day in a supermarket,
when a toddler lifted a bag and his father was like 'wow, you're stronger than me'.

 

[p123]

I think Teen Gohan has more potential than Kid Gohan. He's damn near a grown man now, of course he will have higher potential than what he had as a kid.

Gohan's rage only being Super Saiyan 2 kills the entire 30 volumes that say otherwise. Vegeta scoffs at Gohan's power at the Budokai, yet seems hesitant about his standing against a pissed off Gohan.

Goku says release your power like you did against Cell, not Kibito.

Goku never expected to use his Super Saiyan 3 power, so that's not in consideration here, but Enraged Gohan over all including Goku and Vegeta imo. Gohan is still the king, if he taps into it. It's not until FP Majin Buu and SSJ3 Goku that Gohan isn't king circumstantially.

 

[SSJ2]

Personally I go with retconning Gohan displaying SSJ2 at the Budokai due to Kaioshin's statement to Kibito, but your theory isn't bad P. I don't mind the train of thought of Gohan having SSJ2 + rage boost these days, but it still leaves several questionable statements within the manga which don't add up.

 

[p123]

I think a lot of them add up.

Vegeta makes it clear he feels there is a difference between Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Angry Gohan. He considers Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power pathetic. He however states that he is unsure of how he matches up against an Angry Gohan.

Goku specifically tells Gohan to get angry like he did against Cell, not for him to just power up like he did at the Budokai. He also says that if he taps into his anger, he won't lose to anyone, after it's been clearly displayed his mere Super Saiyan 2 power definitely cannot beat everyone.

Gohan says he is angry, but not like back then, signifying he cannot tap into his true power.

Gohan uses up a lot of stamina in his fight against Dabura, stamina which doesn't make sense if it was in Super Saiyan.

There's quite a few issues with this line of logic, but overall it's probably the best. Most of Kaioshin's statements are terrible anyhow.

Remove the surprise about Super Saiyan 2 for Vegeta and Goku and that's that. It's probably the best option.

Also no one mentions the elephant in the room that if Gohan is a Super Saiyan, why on Earth isn't Vegeta and Goku screaming for him to become a Super Saiyan 2 like he was just hours ago.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

The Saiyans not calling Gohan out on using a weaker form is something a lot of people have mentioned throughout these debates.

Like I always say, the writing implies Gohan's a Super Saiyan 2. The artwork implies Gohan's a Super Saiyan.

Goku wouldn't urge Gohan to get angry and tap into all of his power if his normal Super Saiyan 2 could take Dabra with ease. It wouldn't make sense for him to resort to such an extreme method when a much easier option was available.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm kind of with SSJ2 here. I do believe Gohan could use have used some rage boosts here and there, but i don't think they were the main source of Gohan's power. Assuming a retcon makes things flow greatly better with both sides's implications.

 

[p123]

I don't think so. How do you explain Vegeta's clear as day statements that Gohan has two levels of power? How do you explain the 30 volumes suggesting that Gohan has something extra to his power?

 

[SSJ2]

There's not really a way to explain it, similarly to how there isn't really a way to explain Kaioshin's bizarre statement to Kibito that makes it sound like Kibito never saw Gohan's power. That's why I just retcon Gohan turning SSJ2 at the Budokai entirely.

 

[p123]

Nothing wrong with that. However, this thread's sole intention is to discuss a different source of retcon, one in which assumes Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2. So please play along for now, I want to take that point of view to it's furthest extent and see what we have. I think I've provided some very fluid changes that make the entirety of it all work.

 

[SSJ2]

As I said before I don't mind your train of thought at all. If I didn't go with the retcon, this is what I'd go by. I don't really have anything else to add to the thread.

 

[p123]

Sure you do. You can point out the flaws in the system.

1) Kaioshin's statements need to be amended.
2) Vegeta/Goku's shock over each other having SS2 has to be altered.
3) Gohan's own comments about his standing vs Fat Buu probably have to be amended as well.
4) The art

Those are major leaps, but they make a better overall story I feel. You have to give Gohan credit for his potential. This is how we go about it properly in my book.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don't think so. How do you explain Vegeta's clear as day statements that Gohan has two levels of power? How do you explain the 30 volumes suggesting that Gohan has something extra to his power?

This one, right?:

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”

I'm actually half on half on this. While i do think Gohan's transformation was retconed, Vegeta's statement clearly implies Gohan isn't only about transformations like he and Goku. The thing is that i think transforming into a SSJ2 isn't a part of Gohan's regular power as he never trained the transformation, more like it's the tip of the Icerberg on Gohan's power.

 

[p123]

Exactly!

Gohan is different. It can't be just a transformation. Also, Gohan got a slight rage boost in Super Saiyan while Cell was pissing him off. Gohan's power is a volatile mess of awesomeness, he's kind of like what we would think a Legendary Super Saiyan could be. Anger fueling his power. He's like the Hulk.