SSJ Trunks gap over Mecha Freeza

[ahill1]

But I could go with something like this, too:

Mecha Freeza : 160
SSJ future Vegeta : 160
SSJ future Gohan (2 arms) : 175
Future #17 : 200
Future SSJ Gohan (2nd time) : 220
Future SSJ Trunks (age 17): 240
Goku SSJ : 280

 

[ahill1]

He wasn't reckless for 13 years. Why would he be reckless now? 1 arm Gohan is hardly rational, he's driven by an indication he is stronger no doubt, but he should wait for Trunks to catch up. He's driven by the deaths of the civilians.

2 Arm Gohan is rational.

That's all assuming though that Vegeta was a SSJ... That SSJ Vegeta back then was slightly above Namek Goku... There's too much conjecture that doesn't have a solid basis.

 

[Power Level Guy]

But I could go with something like this, too:

Mecha Freeza : 160
SSJ future Vegeta : 160
SSJ future Gohan (2 arms) : 175
Future #17 : 200
Future SSJ Gohan (2nd time) : 220
Future SSJ Trunks (age 17): 240
Goku SSJ : 280

Yes, I really think this is the way. Think about it narratively. For 2 Arm Gohan to fight the Androids, it seems logical he'd be stronger than Future Vegeta. He's doesn't need to be tremendously stronger of course, but this is the better option then him not being stronger. We are in a highly speculative realm, where we are almost creating the narrative. Put it this way, let's paint the best narrative possible and make the Future Saga as fun and enjoyable as possible. The best possible option. Then let the fandom determine they want a worse option. You know? Sometimes a fan's interpretation reigns supreme and becomes adopted. We've seen this kind of stuff happen in Super and with those guys who did the meme DBZ some of their jokes got adopted into Super like the Popo one.

That's all assuming though that Vegeta was a SSJ... That SSJ Vegeta back then was slightly above Namek Goku... There's too much conjecture that doesn't have a solid basis.

Every option is conjecture. In a highly speculative realm, one must choose the best, most rational, most exciting path.

The Mecha Freeza Arc showcases suggested powers tremendously superior than the Namek Arc. Yardrat Goku is suggested to be head and shoulders above his previous self and Vegeta and Piccolo most likely kept up with those types of gains.

Also, we have the possibility that Goku's death altered Vegeta's ability to train and perhaps he's stayed the same or even lost power because of the loss of his rival. Perhaps his Super Saiyan was brought out based on his rage of Goku's death and how pointless his pursuit of power was with Freeza and Goku dead.

This is a blank page, we create the narrative. Let's come up with something Toriyama level worthy.

The Future Saga should be interesting!

 

[SSJ2]

How much do we actually know about the future events? Let's say Vegeta did become a Super Saiyan, there is no evidence that he ever surpassed his 1 year post-Namek self. If that is the case, SSJ Future Vegeta might not even be Mecha Freeza level, leaving more room for 2 arm SSJ Gohan.

 

[Power Level Guy]

How much do we actually know about the future events? Let's say Vegeta did become a Super Saiyan, there is no evidence that he ever surpassed his 1 year post-Namek self. If that is the case, SSJ Future Vegeta might not even be Mecha Freeza level, leaving more room for 2 arm SSJ Gohan.

Well, this gets into the woods a bit. First you have to ask yourself a number of questions, but there is indeed quite some variety in what you come up with here.

I've always doubled up everyone essentially. Krillen, Vegeta, Goku all get 2x increases for the Mecha Freeza Saga for me.

Piccolo gets a 5x increase.

But with this Future Vegeta stuff, I might be thinking a bit differently. Also how much stronger are you going to have Trunks > Vegeta? Does Super Saiyan allow for faster growth in Base Form than what Vegeta is capable of doing, a Base Saiyan near SSJ unlocking but not there yet?


Here's what I go with for my Namek to Mecha numbers for Base

Namek Piccolo 175
Namek Vegeta 450
Namek Goku 750

Mecha Piccolo 875
Mecha Vegeta 1,000
Mecha Trunks 1,200
Mecha Goku 1,500


For me to make my Future Vegeta really flow, I'd love to limit him to Namek Goku in the Mecha Saga. That would make a rational change. But I like the idea of Vegeta somewhat catching up to lead into his Androids Saga lead. But yeah...

 

[SSJ2]

When I look at the reactions to Base Trunks' ki, it makes me think everyone there is inferior by a good margin. Krillin is so shocked about it that he can barely speak properly, and that's only about Base Trunks.

Does Super Saiyan allow for faster growth in Base Form than what Vegeta is capable of doing, a Base Saiyan near SSJ unlocking but not there yet?

I think it absolutely does. Gohan was considered dead weight in the RoSaT until he learned Super Saiyan. Look at the enormous gains that were made after that. Sure you can say that it was due to Goku's unique SSJ mastery training, but the results still back it up. Thos gains would not have been made pre-Super Saiyan, meaning it provides a much faster avenue to gaining power.

 

[Power Level Guy]

When I look at the reactions to Base Trunks' ki, it makes me think everyone there is inferior by a good margin. Krillin is so shocked about it that he can barely speak properly, and that's only about Base Trunks.

I can agree with this.

I already had Trunks superior by quite a margin, but having Trunks and Goku a full tier above is fine too.

Also, Vegeta is under the assumption Goku and Freeza are dead, perhaps his gains aren't as substantial.

If we have him matching Namek Goku by the Mecha Freeza Arc, that would be great.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I think it absolutely does. Gohan was considered dead weight in the RoSaT until he learned Super Saiyan. Look at the enormous gains that were made after that. Sure you can say that it was due to Goku's unique SSJ mastery training, but the results still back it up. Thos gains would not have been made pre-Super Saiyan, meaning it provides a much faster avenue to gaining power.

Yeah, I like this. Super Saiyan helps for sure. I'm with it.

 

[SSJ2]

I can agree with this.

I already had Trunks superior by quite a margin, but having Trunks and Goku a full tier above is fine too.

Also, Vegeta is under the assumption Goku and Freeza are dead, perhaps his gains aren't as substantial.

If we have him matching Namek Goku by the Mecha Freeza Arc, that would be great.

Yeah I like that as well. I feel like Namek Goku shouldn't be left in the dust so quickly. He was so far ahead of everyone else at the time.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yeah I like that as well. I feel like Namek Goku shouldn't be left in the dust so quickly. He was so far ahead of everyone else at the time.

Great point. And this allows us to make Future Vegeta weak enough to make 2 arm Gohan above him while also not having to force Future Vegeta to lose power to do so.

I like it.

Damn, the Future Saga is so much improved with Vegeta being a SSJ, I have to admit. And it has anime and movie support and its just good ol fashioned fun for narrative purposes as well.

Do you keep Future Vegeta at Namek Level SSJ Goku or make him Mecha Freeza? Maybe keeping him Namek Saga Goku is the way to even increase the gap between 2 Arm Gohan and him?

 

[ahill1]

To me working with a hypothetical 2 arms SSJ Gohan and a hypothetical future Vegeta which we have 0 info besides him being killed, as far as the manga goes, it going too much into speculation, for me personally. I'd rather work with the more established basis that is the future Gohan we saw, the perception of < 50% 17's power and that's it. I would not factor into a hypothetical Vegeta and hypothetical Gohan who faced them firstly, to me it'd distance from what we can get from the material, leading to imagination that imo just lacks anything other than thinking "hmm how strong was Vegeta?" etc.

I like < 1/2 future #17 > Mecha Freeza given then way Gohan seemed to treat the androids, as well as Trunks... They knew of the power < 1/2 future #17 (Gohan did at least), but he wasn't walking there like it'd be a non-factor at all, like Trunks vs Mecha Freeza.


SSJ Namek Goku : 150
Mecha Freeza : 155
Less than half future #17 : 180
SSJ future Gohan : 200
SSJ future Trunks : 220
SSJ Goku : 250


That works well imo.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I would not factor into a hypothetical Vegeta and hypothetical Gohan who faced them firstly, to me it'd distance from what we can get from the material, leading to imagination that imo just lacks anything other than thinking "hmm how strong was Vegeta?" etc.

I hear you, completely avoiding the Future Saga and 2 Arm Gohan is a wise choice.

We have plenty of surrounding evidence to make some educated guesses though.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

He transformed off world

That’s filler. Goku also transformed training with Piccolo. Goten and Trunks transformed too and nobody knew.

2 Arm Gohan is rational.

Dunno. I want to say we should rely on the tv special, but when you think about it, it makes as little sense as the manga. Gohan took base Trunks to the fight lol.

 

[Power Level Guy]

That’s filler. Goku also transformed training with Piccolo. Goten and Trunks transformed too and nobody knew.

Good point. So is that your final answer? Piccolo and Future Vegeta fought Android 17 and 18 and were not sensed by Gohan?

Dunno. I want to say we should rely on the tv special, but when you think about it, it makes as little sense as the manga. Gohan took base Trunks to the fight lol.

Yeah, there's only a handful of power scaling things I really don't like in the manga and that's one of them. We can rationalize that Trunks is tired and all that, but it's just stupid. You should never make SSJ look stupid as an author, it just goes against everything.

My big thing here GSM is let's put your narrative against mine. If mine is superior, adopt mine and vice versa. That's what makes sense.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So is that your final answer?

I just remembered, Toyotaro’s special chapter says Gohan was on the battlefield. Ki sensing tends to be inconsistent and I could go all day listing examples, but Gohan likely saw Vegeta vs androids.

but it's just stupid. You should never make SSJ look stupid as an author, it just goes against everything.

Isn’t that the theme of the Cell Saga? Making SSJ look pathetic for Goku and co. to look beyond it?

 

[Power Level Guy]

I just remembered, Toyotaro’s special chapter says Gohan was on the battlefield. Ki sensing tends to be inconsistent and I could go all day listing examples, but Gohan likely saw Vegeta vs androids.

Ok perfect for me. So Gohan sensed Vegeta vs Androids.

That should mean Gohan 2 Arms > Future Vegeta. Agreed or disagree?

Isn’t that the theme of the Cell Saga? Making SSJ look pathetic for Goku and co. to look beyond it?

Yes, a new foe appears that forces them to go beyond. But instead of truly going beyond, they bring out all of it's potential and it's substantial.

MSSJ is always a respected power, despite being weaker.

A Base Saiyan trashing SSJ a year after SSJ is introduced is lame.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ok perfect for me. So Gohan sensed Vegeta vs Androids.

That should mean Gohan 2 Arms > Future Vegeta. Agreed or disagree?

Agreed. And Vegeta was probably a SSJ right? 2 pieces of evidence that he was (TV special and anime filler) vs 1 that he maybe wasn’t (Toyotaro special, which only shows the aftermath). So the chain was right all along.

Yardrat Goku > Initial Trunks > 1 arm Gohan > 40% 17 > 2 arm Gohan > Vegeta > Mecha.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Agreed. And Vegeta was probably a SSJ right?

Well you know me. My original stance for years has been that he hasn't achieved it in the Future timeline. But I've just recently had a change of heart. You know what's better than Vegeta not achieving Super Saiyan? Vegeta achieving Super Saiyan! Lol

This makes the narrative so much more fun and exciting. Plus, I'm already coming up with some cool ideas. How do you like this one.

Future Vegeta and Future Piccolo end up matching Namek Goku and Namek Freeza, so the Androids stomping them out are equivalent to them defeating the Namek powers. I think that has a cool ring to it.

Piccolo is able to keep up with Vegeta since Vegeta slacks a bit. And Vegeta never trains hard enough since Goku's death but achieves SSJ out of rage of not having real competition anymore.

What do you think? I think this is pretty elite level story telling.

Also I want to revisit those Namek numbers with you.

Yardrat Goku > Initial Trunks > 1 arm Gohan > 40% 17 > 2 arm Gohan > Vegeta > Mecha.

It might be the case. But to keep things from getting out of hand, I like Vegeta around Namek Goku to Mecha Freeza. I don't think we necessarily need Future Vegeta stronger than that, if we set it up good in the Mecha Saga and narratively with no gain in power after Goku's death.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Nah I don’t buy Piccolo getting up there without training with Goku.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Nah I don’t buy Piccolo getting up there without training with Goku.

Really? That's surprising. In my scenario I have Piccolo achieving around 30% of his power he reached in the Androids Saga.

That isn't far enough way? Sheesh!