SSjin 2 Vegeta (Pre Majin) vs Super Perfect Cell

[Pakl]

Who wins?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd say the majority of evidence from both the manga and supplementary material such as guidebooks points to Pre-Majin SS2 Vegeta > Dabura > SPC, so Vegeta wins with either mid or high-diff.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

SPC is up there with SSJ2 Kid Gohan. And Vegeta is not quite at that level. Cell wins

 

[Pyro]

Agreed, Vegeta gets beaten after a tough fight.

 

[Pakl]

I'd say the majority of evidence from both the manga and supplementary material such as guidebooks points to Pre-Majin SS2 Vegeta > Dabura > SPC, so Vegeta wins with either mid or high-diff.

How is Dabura stronger than SPC if he was having troubles with SSjin Teen Gohan?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

How is Dabura stronger than SPC if he was having troubles with SSjin Teen Gohan?

1. Gohan being only a SSJ is an opinion, one contradicted by official sources such as the Daizenshuu at that. The majority of the narrative points to him being a SS2 whereas the art is mainly what favours SSJ, so it's down to what you place more stock in, and I'd personally rather say Toriyama didn't do his best at conveying the differences with the art than contradict the entire narrative.
2. Dabura wasn't having major trouble with Gohan. Quite the opposite when Gohan was the one in need of a senzu after the match whereas Dabura was confident in taking him down in Round 2. The only evidence to the contrary is him not doing any significant damage, which isn't that substantial when his comment about Pui Pui leaving nothing left for him makes it apparent he likes to toy with his opponents.
3. If Dabura was comparable to a weaker version of Cell, there'd be no reason for Goku to not distinguish between Cell's levels rather than saying in general that Dabura was about as strong as Cell, something backed up by almost every guidebook. This says more about Cell's standing compared to SS2 Gohan, if anything.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

Toriyama doesnt forget to add the sparks. They are there during the fight between Goku and Majin Vegeta

 

[GSM123]

Vegeta stomps. Even Gohan, be it his whacky teen self or his kid self with one arm and not even half his power, was holding his own against Cell (Or someone even stronger than him).

 

[Pakl]

How is Dabura stronger than SPC if he was having troubles with SSjin Teen Gohan?

1. Gohan being only a SSJ is an opinion, one contradicted by official sources such as the Daizenshuu at that. The majority of the narrative points to him being a SS2 whereas the art is mainly what favours SSJ, so it's down to what you place more stock in, and I'd personally rather say Toriyama didn't do his best at conveying the differences with the art than contradict the entire narrative.
2. Dabura wasn't having major trouble with Gohan. Quite the opposite when Gohan was the one in need of a senzu after the match whereas Dabura was confident in taking him down in Round 2. The only evidence to the contrary is him not doing any significant damage, which isn't that substantial when his comment about Pui Pui leaving nothing left for him makes it apparent he likes to toy with his opponents.
3. If Dabura was comparable to a weaker version of Cell, there'd be no reason for Goku to not distinguish between Cell's levels rather than saying in general that Dabura was about as strong as Cell, something backed up by almost every guidebook. This says more about Cell's standing compared to SS2 Gohan, if anything.

1.Gohan being a SSjin is not an opinion. He was drawn as SSjin therefore he was a SSjin. Also nothing indicates He was a SSjin 2. If anything everything indicates the opposite. If anything Gohan being a SSjin is the most logic thing as Vegeta and Goku were still not known to have SSjin 2. Well, Goku was implied to by Vegeta but it was not known that Vegeta could. Toriyama likely wanted Goku and Vegeta to be relevant. Gohan had SSjin aura with no sparks. In the manga every SSjin has sparks. As for the Daizenshuu, I think Daizenshuu 2 states Gohan only transformed into SSjin 2 vs Kibito. One can argue that he probably was a SSjin 2 in the anime only and that's why this contradiction exists.

2 While I agree that Dabura is somewhat stronger and can defeat SSjin Gohan, He is not able to toy with him. He was having troubles hitting him with his sword. He even spat on him and tried to turn him into a stone. Talk about toying lol. Also since you mentioned guidebooks and and official sources, it's funny you forgot to mention this guidebook which states Gohan had troubles with Dabura who has inferior power due to his rusty skills.

Spoiler

3. What do you want Goku to tell Kaioshin? "this guy is about as strong as the suppressed Cell I fought"? That would be pretty idiotic from an artist and reader point of view. Goku just needed to compare Dabura to someone and the strongest character that he could be compared to is Cell. That doesnt mean Dabura is as strong as Cell's FP. If anything Goku could of meant to SPC if you wanna take Goku's statement to Cell's strongest state and it's clearly ridiculous. I don't take the guidebooks at face value. The guidebooks like to take a comment from the series and state it again. We see it happen all the time in the Daizenshuu. Dabura was considered as nothing special before it was known to the readers that Goku and Vegeta were SSjin2s and it's obvious SSjin Majin Vegeta was the biggest threat at this point and stronger than Dabura. Vegeta even said he can beat Dabura before we and Goku knew he had SSjin 2. Goku even never contradicted Vegeta's statement despite not knowing he could transform into a SSjin 2.

 

[Papasmurf]

Cell wins. While Gohan didn't say Cell was now stronger than him, he did say he underestimated Cell's power when a simple finger beam meant for a weakling like CG Vegeta took out over half his power. I'd still have SPC losing in a head on fight against a fresh SSJ2 Gohan, but with his regeneration, Shunkan Ido and other haxes as well as Vegeta presumably having poorer stamina due to SSJ2 draining more ki than MSSJ, Cell has this in the bag.

 

[SSJ2]

This fight will look a lot like FPSSJ Goku vs Cell, except Vegeta won't have the benefit of having better stamina. Considering Vegeta doesn't have anything like the Shunkan Ido KHH in his arsenal, I can't see any way for him to defeat Cell. Vegeta will give him a tough fight but will ultimately be worn down.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

1.Gohan being a SSjin is not an opinion. He was drawn as SSjin therefore he was a SSjin.

It is when the narrative has many hints towards it.

Also nothing indicates He was a SSjin 2.

- Goku not specifying a specific form of Cell.
- Goku tells Gohan to get angry like against Cell to beat Dabura, despite his SS2 transformation at the Budokai being a more recent example.
- Shin saying Kibito never saw how strong Gohan was despite him sensing SS2 Gohan.
- Daizenshuu 7 outright confirming him to be a SS2, as well as El Manga Legendario alluding to it when stating Shin ~ MSSJ CG Goku.

You'd have to actively ignore evidence from both the manga and official sources to say there's absolutely nothing conflicting with the idea of Gohan being just a SSJ.

If anything Gohan being a SSjin is the most logic thing as Vegeta and Goku were still not known to have SSjin 2. Well, Goku was implied to by Vegeta but it was not known that Vegeta could.

Vegeta outright challenged the idea of Gohan still being the strongest at the beginning of the arc and made it apparent he thought Goku had SS2 before he was shown it against Yakon. Unless you seriously believe Vegeta believed himself to have caught up to SS2 Gohan with just SSJ, it's pretty obvious from the start he'd attained the form.

In the manga every SSjin has sparks.

Think you made a typo there. Also, Gohan lacked sparks after being wounded by Cell until Goku's pep talk, so that point is false.

As for the Daizenshuu, I think Daizenshuu 2 states Gohan only transformed into SSjin 2 vs Kibito. One can argue that he probably was a SSjin 2 in the anime only and that's why this contradiction exists.

Daizenshuu 7 explicitly states Dabura fought SS2 Gohan, and it's pretty clear this wasn't referring to the anime when it treats anime exclusive content in its own part of the character profile.

2 While I agree that Dabura is somewhat stronger and can defeat SSjin Gohan, He is not able to toy with him. He was having troubles hitting him with his sword. He even spat on him and tried to turn him into a stone. Talk about toying lol.

And he then goes onto say he'd have no trouble with Gohan and calls him trash. Unless you believe Dabura was that deluded despite his fighting experience and skill, his performance can be chalked up to the same as any character fighting at a "warm up level" and showing effort despite hiding their full power such as Freeza or Cell.

Also since you mentioned guidebooks and and official sources, it's funny you forgot to mention this guidebook which states Gohan had troubles with Dabura who has inferior power due to his rusty skills.

Not only does that guide refer purely to the anime as it's an episode guide, but the anime contradicts it when Dabura fights Fat Boo by him powering up and Trunks noting him to make a large increase in Ki.

3. What do you want Goku to tell Kaioshin? "this guy is about as strong as the suppressed Cell I fought"? That would be pretty idiotic from an artist and reader point of view.

It neither requires context from Shin or is forced for Goku to say something as simple as "Granted, Cell got way stronger" or something along those lines.

Goku just needed to compare Dabura to someone and the strongest character that he could be compared to is Cell. That doesnt mean Dabura is as strong as Cell's FP.

The statement loses all meaning if referring to anything less than Cell's peak. Not only would it be pretty pointless to compare him to the suppressed level of someone Shin's never met, but it makes Dabura lose his point in the narrative as a benchmark for how much the Saiyans have progressed.

If anything Goku could of meant to SPC if you wanna take Goku's statement to Cell's strongest state

Which I do.

and it's clearly ridiculous.

Elaborate, because all I see for you stating it's "ridiculous" is pure conjecture when the idea that Gohan has to be a SSJ isn't an absolute, nor is the idea that Boo Arc SS2 Gohan must be far away from SPC's level contradictive.

I don't take the guidebooks at face value. The guidebooks like to take a comment from the series and state it again. We see it happen all the time in the Daizenshuu.

Guidebooks still hold more weight as evidence than an interpretation of the manga that is neither absolute and relies on the fan's perspective of placing the art on a higher level of importance than the writing.

Dabura was considered as nothing special before it was known to the readers that Goku and Vegeta were SSjin2s and it's obvious SSjin Majin Vegeta was the biggest threat at this point and stronger than Dabura. Vegeta even said he can beat Dabura before we and Goku knew he had SSjin 2. Goku even never contradicted Vegeta's statement despite not knowing he could transform into a SSjin 2.

As I've already said, you'd have to blindly ignore what was stated to not realise Vegeta was already a SS2, so his importance prior to displaying the form was irrelevant. Also, to say someone who was hyped up as the strongest in the Demon Realm, said to be equal to Cell and shown to have dangerous magic was treat as "nothing special" is simply untrue.