SSjin Blue Goku Kaioken x20 vs Beerus

[Pakl]

Can Beerus beat Goku as easily as Jiren?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Near enough. It didn't seem to be implied Jiren was that far above Beerus.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Beerus was floored by the scope of suppressed Jirens power and was baffled at how one person could have that much power.

Beerus wasn't even more powerful than the standard x2 Ssb kaioken.

Story wise Goku developed the Ssb kaioken specifically for beerus, so I see no reason why Goku wouldn't be capable of defeating beerus with it after he's mastered it to minimize it's strain and maximize it's power.

 

[Void]

Goku still gets smashed if Beerus is semi-Ultra Instinct.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Nah, only Jiren was said to surpass SSjinB Vegito/Merged Zamasu and the Hakaishin level and Goku is still weaker than those so Beerus wins.

 

[Keedounan]

Can Beerus beat Goku as easily as Jiren?

Pretty much.

 

[Keedounan]

Beerus was floored by the scope of suppressed Jirens power and was baffled at how one person could have that much power.

The fact that a mortal is that powerful is what makes him quite worried, especially when his universe is up against this power, and losing would lead to him being erased. Of course he would be afraid.

Beerus wasn't even more powerful than the standard x2 Ssb kaioken.

Says you, and good for you, you're wrong.

Episode: 110
Time: 04:58-05:36
Context: The U7 Gods thinks that Goku has reach his limit and amazed by Jiren's power
Whis: "It appears he's at the limit of his limit. Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power."
Supreme Kai: "This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before. He's strong. Plain and simple."
Whis: "I daresay... like a God of Destruction. He is the one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat." It appears the rumor is true."

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLemYKOXkAALZwZ.jpg

If Jiren (who stomped Goku x20) is the first mortal to be even comparable to Hakaishin-level, Goku stood no chance in the first place.

Even more damning is the manga, in which Vegeta (with Completed SSJB) gets beaten in a single hit with a Beerus far from being at full power, as well as statements that all, but indicates he's on a completely different level from them:

Ch. 27, pg. 34.2-5
Context: Beerus defeats Vegeta with ease after getting serious
Beerus: “You got carried away while I was going easy on you…”
Vegeta: “Gah… Dammit…”
Beerus: “At this rate, it’ll take a million years to become my rival! Well…I’ll give you points for improving so quickly. You could probably be a candidate for a God of Destruction in another universe…”

Ch. 29, pg. 18.1
Context: Grand Priest says Goku is fighting next
Goku: “I don’t mind, but I can’t tell how long I’ll be able to last fighting Gods of Destruction. Watching this match made me realize that I still have a long way to go…”

It took a fusion between the two of them to be even relevant to Beerus:

Ch. 23, pg. 43.6-7
Context: as Vegetto prepares his Final Kamehameha
Kaioshin: “A-amazing… This is incredible…! The power of Vegetto… Could it already be greater than Lord Beerus’s?!”

Story wise Goku developed the Ssb kaioken specifically for beerus, so I see no reason why Goku wouldn't be capable of defeating beerus with it after he's mastered it to minimize it's strain and maximize it's power.

Goku also unlocked the SSJG to defeat Beerus. Guess what ? He still lost, and Beerus was holding back a huge amount of his power the entire time. There is no reason for the SSJB Kaioken to be treated any differently, especially now that we know just how much Beerus outclasses Goku.

Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJB Goku, Kaioken or not.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The fact that a mortal is that powerful is what makes him quite worried, especially when his universe is up against this power, and losing would lead to him being erased. Of course he would be afraid.

Not what was said so no.

Says you, and good for you, you're wrong.

Episode: 110
Time: 04:58-05:36
Context: The U7 Gods thinks that Goku has reach his limit and amazed by Jiren's power
Whis: "It appears he's at the limit of his limit. Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power."
Supreme Kai: "This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before. He's strong. Plain and simple."
Whis: "I daresay... like a God of Destruction. He is the one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat." It appears the rumor is true."

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLemYKOXkAALZwZ.jpg

If Jiren (who stomped Goku x20) is the first mortal to be even comparable to Hakaishin-level, Goku stood no chance in the first place.

Even more damning is the manga, in which Vegeta (with Completed SSJB) gets beaten in a single hit with a Beerus far from being at full power, as well as statements that all, but indicates he's on a completely different level from them:

Ch. 27, pg. 34.2-5
Context: Beerus defeats Vegeta with ease after getting serious
Beerus: “You got carried away while I was going easy on you…”
Vegeta: “Gah… Dammit…”
Beerus: “At this rate, it’ll take a million years to become my rival! Well…I’ll give you points for improving so quickly. You could probably be a candidate for a God of Destruction in another universe…”

Ch. 29, pg. 18.1
Context: Grand Priest says Goku is fighting next
Goku: “I don’t mind, but I can’t tell how long I’ll be able to last fighting Gods of Destruction. Watching this match made me realize that I still have a long way to go…”

It took a fusion between the two of them to be even relevant to Beerus:

Ch. 23, pg. 43.6-7
Context: as Vegetto prepares his Final Kamehameha
Kaioshin: “A-amazing… This is incredible…! The power of Vegetto… Could it already be greater than Lord Beerus’s?!”

Goku also unlocked the SSJG to defeat Beerus. Guess what ? He still lost, and Beerus was holding back a huge amount of his power the entire time. There is no reason for the SSJB Kaioken to be treated any differently, especially now that we know just how much Beerus outclasses Goku.

Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJB Goku, Kaioken or not.

Twisting context to try to support your point. You're argument is basically since jiren and hakaishin were said in the same sentence that Goku obviously isn't on that level. Yeah, no. He isn't with Ssb, but he is with kaioken.
Nowhere does any of this say that jiren is comparable to any of the hakaishin. Rather it talks about jiren reaching the hakaishin state and surpassing it. Not that he's comparable to the current hakaishin.

The Vegito point is nonsense. Both Goku and vegeta are weaker than beerus, so obviously they would need to fuse to be stronger than beerus and that's the context that Vegito was compared to beerus. Being stronger, not comparable to him.

Ivan already shut this down anyway. Ssjg Goku and Toppo were stated to be fighting on the level of the current hakaishin by a hakaishin himself.

I'll just keep following the story, in which beerus was intimidated over the most basic level of kaioken and was sweating it. So Goku mastering it would allow him to beat beerus as was implied earlier in the story.

 

[Keedounan]

The fact that a mortal is that powerful is what makes him quite worried, especially when his universe is up against this power, and losing would lead to him being erased. Of course he would be afraid.

Not what was said so no.

Translation: your interpretation isn't mine. Therefore it's false.

Twisting context to try to support your point.

I've bolded each important part of Whis' quote and linked a profile from Toei's website, yet you think I've twisted anything ? Laughable.

You're argument is basically since jiren and hakaishin were said in the same sentence that Goku obviously isn't on that level.

You're the one who is twisting my words here.

My argument is that since Jiren is estimated to be the first person at Hakaishin level (perhaps even stronger than that), Goku is obviously not on that level, because Jiren, for a lack of better words, utterly DESTROYED Goku Blue x20.

Yeah, no. He isn't with Ssb, but he is with kaioken.

You mean, the same Kaioken that failed to beat Jiren, whose full power is estimated to be at Hakaishin level at his full power ? And was holding back the entire time ? Even with a twenty-fold power-up ? Yeah, not buying that.

Jiren (estimated full power)>= Beerus > Jiren (holding back) >>>>>>>>>>>> Goku Blue, Kaioken or not.

Nowhere does any of this say that jiren is comparable to any of the hakaishin.

What the...Whis flat-out states that Jiren's power feels like a Hakaishin and that he is the one who reach that level.

Even the website tells you that his true power is estimated to be at Hakaishin-tier.

You might want to sharpen your reading skills.

Rather it talks about jiren reaching the hakaishin state and surpassing it. Not that he's comparable to the current hakaishin.

"Perhaps" surpassing it, and if Whis made the comparison, Jiren is definitely comparable to a Hakaishin.

The Vegito point is nonsense.

Again, says you. And all things considered, you're not exactly reliable.

Both Goku and vegeta are weaker than beerus, so obviously they would need to fuse to be stronger than beerus and that's the context that Vegito was compared to beerus. Being stronger, not comparable to him.

Comparable =/= Equal.

You can be stronger, yet comparable. A guy lifting 120 kg and another lifting 119 are comparable, because the gap isn't large.

Ivan already shut this down anyway. Ssjg Goku and Toppo were stated to be fighting on the level of the current hakaishin by a hakaishin himself.

Taking statements that suits your point, huh ? Beerus complaining about how weak Goku and Vegeta are compared to him, then one-shotting CSSJB Vegeta two chapter earliers, as well as Zen'O being unable to keep up with the Hakaushins' fight (which is why Goku and Toppo had to fight in the first place) all prove Iwan dead wrong.

I'll just keep following the story, in which beerus was intimidated over the most basic level of kaioken and was sweating it. So Goku mastering it would allow him to beat beerus as was implied earlier in the story.

"Not what was said so no"

Your words, not mine. And before you make any kind of retort, you said "implied", not "stated", thus not said. So according to your own reasoning, your argument that Goku Kaioken Blue > Beerus based on "implication" is wrong, right ? Unless you think that making any kind of interpretation is okay if it's you, which would make you an hypocrite, thus demonstrating your own bias on the debate ?

And I'll be blunt: your "implication" argument (which is more of an interpretation), in the face of the overwhelming evidence that I've posted earlier and that you have yet to correctly debunk, means absolutely nothing.

Now, unless you have undisputable evidence that Goku Blue (Kaioken) is indeed stronger than Beerus, I'll simply consider that you're wrong.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Jiren is estimated to have power in the range that a hakaishin can have or higher, hence him being talked about in reference to the state itself and not to any of the current hakaishin. Neither Whis or the toei website state that jiren is comparable to the current hakaishin. His power has reached the level of hakaishin though. Not my problem if you can't tell the difference between these 2 concepts.

And perhaps by definition isn't a measure of quantity. It isn't a synonym for "slightly". Just wanted to clear that up before you go even further off the rails with assumptions.

Why is Ivan wrong? Because you said so? You can't claim that I'm cherry picking while you yourself are cherry picking. What an absolute waste of time. And you basically said this yourself. Goku and Toppo are on that level, but they aren't equal to any of the hakaishin. The same example you used.

Vegito was never stated to be comparable to beerus ever, so I don't even know what you're trying to say. Don't know why you bolded "compared" as if I contradicted myself. If goku was compared to Krillin it doesn't mean that they're comparable. It's just a means of measuring how fighter A stacks up to fighter B.

Goku said he developed kaioken for use against beerus, so it was stated. He wanted to brush up on it to use against beerus and beerus freaks out over the most basic multiplier. Quite obvious what happens after Goku masters it and pushes it's multiplier to 20.

You haven't posted any evidence. You're extrapolating based on your bias, because nothing states that jiren is comparable to the current hakaishin, nothing states that Vegito is comparable to beerus and nothing states that kaioken wouldn't work on beerus contrary to what goku said during the U6 arc.

 

[Keedounan]

Jiren is estimated to have power in the range that a hakaishin can have or higher, hence him being talked about in reference to the state itself and not to any of the current hakaishin. Neither Whis or the toei website state that jiren is comparable to the current hakaishin. His power has reached the level of hakaishin though. Not my problem if you can't tell the difference between these 2 concepts.

As if it changes anything to my point. Use whatever word suits you, if being as strong as Jiren (ie. who stomped x20 Goku Blue with little effort) is what it takes to reach Hakaishin level, Goku Blue is definitely not gonna win against Beerus any time soon..

And perhaps by definition isn't a measure of quantity. It isn't a synonym for "slightly". Just wanted to clear that up before you go even further off the rails with assumptions.

Like you're one to talk.

Anyways, Whis initially estimated that Jiren's full power is at Hakaishin level, then stated that "perhaps", just "perhaps" it's higher. In either case, Jiren's suppressed power was enough to deal with Goku, so whether or not Jiren really turns out to be stronger than Beerus is irrelevant anyways.

Why is Ivan wrong? Because you said so

I'm pretty sure that Beerus VS Completed SSJB Vegeta should be enough of an evidence to prove him wrong. Beerus' quotes, Goku's quote, Zeno's quote about the Hakaishins fight are valid proof too.

You can't claim that I'm cherry picking while you yourself are cherry picking.

Right, because picking a single statement that is proven wrong and inconsistent is no different than provinhmg it wrong with no less than 4 quotes and two fights isn't cherry picking...seems legit.

What an absolute waste of time. And you basically said this yourself. Goku and Toppo are on that level, but they aren't equal to any of the hakaishin. The same example you used.

Iwan said that Goku's fight with Toppo is at the same level at the fight of the twelve actual Hakaishins. Not only is your comparison with Jiren's situation invalid (as there is nothing disproving it, as well as two different sources going on the same sense), but Iwan's statement in itself is proven invalid too.

Vegito was never stated to be comparable to beerus ever, so I don't even know what you're trying to say. Don't know why you bolded "compared" as if I contradicted myself. If goku was compared to Krillin it doesn't mean that they're comparable. It's just a means of measuring how fighter A stacks up to fighter B.

I'll acknowledge that you're right on that one.

Goku said he developed kaioken for use against beerus, so it was stated.

For someone who is hellbent on me avoiding making any interpretation, you sure are quick to make conclusions based on nothing.

Goku developped it to use it against Beerus, so what ? He unlocked the SSJG to use it against Beerus and still lost.

He wanted to brush up on it to use against beerus and beerus freaks out over the most basic multiplier. Quite obvious what happens are Goku masters it and pushes it's multiplier to 20.

"Freak out" is an exaggerated way to put it. His reasons for "sweating" are still unclear. Did he freak out simply because Goku was stronger ? Was it because Goku was planning on hiding a powerful technique to surprise and eventually beat him once he became strong enough ? Was it because Goku has become a "potential" threat (in which case it doesn't immediately mean that Goku is stronger, just that his technique is threatening) ?

In any case, it's certainly not because Goku was stronger. When Hit and Goku glares at Champa, he freaked out...which didn't kept him from threatening to kill his team, which end with even Hit (who adapted to Goku's Kaioken) shitting on himself, and Beerus smugly tells Goku that he can challenge a Hakaishin if he wants to change the rules, at which point Goku could only able glare at Beerus, powerless.

Link: https://youtu.be/XePpSpatEj4

That, with the evidence above, is enough to prove you wrong.

You haven't posted any evidence.

Really ?

You're extrapolating based on your bias

You've just described yourself.

because nothing states that jiren is comparable to the current hakaishin

Except the site stating his full power is estimated to be at the level of Hakaishins, Whis stating Jiren is the first mortal to reach that level (which Goku Blue didn't), and possibly stronger, but okay.

nothing states that kaioken wouldn't work on beerus contrary to what goku said during the U6 arc.

He never said it would work either. Just that he was planning to use it.

You're right for the Vegetto part, though. He could be 2x stronger, or barely stronger. But only that part.

As you failed to bring solid evidence to the table like I asked you, I'll do like I said: consider that you're wrong, and silently quit the debate. It's a waste of time to continue.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The only thing you've done is force me to wall post which isn't necessary because you aren't even saying anything.
So I'm just going to summarize your posts since you have no actual point.

Goku at full power is stated to be equal to Frieza by toei. He isn't as strong as a hakaishin just because of kaioken. That's just a technique. His full power is equal to golden Frieza.

Beerus beating vegeta doesn't contradict Ivan. That's not how it's presented in the story and that interpretation is nonsense since beerus acknowledged that vegeta could be a god candidate. That's your assumption. As was already stated, ssjg Goku and Toppo are on that level, but aren't as strong as the hakaishin. Period, end of discussion.

Just another case of "this contradicts this because I said so".

The kaioken point is just denial of the obvious considering beerus' and Whis' interaction with Whis asking him if he thinks he's in trouble and beerus tries to play it off while stuttering and sweating. So beerus is in trouble against even the basic x2 kaioken and no future incident states that beerus>kaioken in power. Beerus' smug remarks are before goku masters kaioken to a point where it's drawbacks wouldn't hinder him against beerus, drawbacks that both Champa and Vados remarked on, so once again it's moot.

There's no question if jiren is stronger than beerus. It's obvious if you've been following the story. Beerus wondered how 1 person could have the level of power that a heavily suppressed jiren displayed. Logically that means that he himself isn't that strong otherwise that amount of energy wouldn't be foreign to him. It's common sense. It doesn't matter if both have reached the "hakaishin state". Jiren is drastically farther up the "hakaishin tier" than beerus. Nowhere is it stated that Jirens power is what it takes to reach hakaishin level. You need hakaishin tier power to beat kaioken Goku in power. Jiren is someone on the hakaishin tier that can do this. Doesn't mean that everyone on the hakaishin tier can beat kaioken Goku.


You have posted zero evidence. Your argument is literally "jiren is hakaishin tier. Beerus is hakaishin tier, thus they're comparable. Jiren easily beat kaioken Goku, therefore beerus can."

Nonsense, absolute nonsense that isn't supported by the story.

 

[Keedounan]

The only thing you've done is force me to wall post which isn't necessary because you aren't even saying anything.
So I'm just going to summarize your posts since you have no actual point.

Goku at full power is stated to be equal to Frieza by toei. He isn't as strong as a hakaishin just because of kaioken. That's just a technique. His full power is equal to golden Frieza.

Beerus beating vegeta doesn't contradict Ivan. That's not how it's presented in the story and that interpretation is nonsense since beerus acknowledged that vegeta could be a god candidate. That's your assumption. As was already stated, ssjg Goku and Toppo are on that level, but aren't as strong as the hakaishin. Period, end of discussion.

Just another case of "this contradicts this because I said so".

The kaioken point is just denial of the obvious considering beerus' and Whis' interaction with Whis asking him if he thinks he's in trouble and beerus tries to play it off while stuttering and sweating. So beerus is in trouble against even the basic x2 kaioken and no future incident states that beerus>kaioken in power. Beerus' smug remarks are before goku masters kaioken to a point where it's drawbacks wouldn't hinder him against beerus, drawbacks that both Champa and Vados remarked on, so once again it's moot.

There's no question if jiren is stronger than beerus. It's obvious if you've been following the story. Beerus wondered how 1 person could have the level of power that a heavily suppressed jiren displayed. Logically that means that he himself isn't that strong otherwise that amount of energy wouldn't be foreign to him. It's common sense. It doesn't matter if both have reached the "hakaishin state". Jiren is drastically farther up the "hakaishin tier" than beerus. Nowhere is it stated that Jirens power is what it takes to reach hakaishin level. You need hakaishin tier power to beat kaioken Goku in power. Jiren is someone on the hakaishin tier that can do this. Doesn't mean that everyone on the hakaishin tier can beat kaioken Goku.


You have posted zero evidence. Your argument is literally "jiren is hakaishin tier. Beerus is hakaishin tier, thus they're comparable. Jiren easily beat kaioken Goku, therefore beerus can."

Nonsense, absolute nonsense that isn't supported by the story.

As I thought, still no solid evidence for Goku Blue (Kaioken) > Beerus. With that wall of text, you couldn't even find a quote stating it. Disappointing.

"You have posted zero evidence". Do you even know what evidence means ? You haven't even posted a single quote yourself, not so much of a link.

Episode: 110
Time: 04:58-05:36
Context: The U7 Gods thinks that Goku has reach his limit and amazed by Jiren's power
Whis: "It appears he's at the limit of his limit. Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power."
Supreme Kai: "This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before. He's strong. Plain and simple."
Whis: "I daresay... like a God of Destruction. He is the one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat." It appears the rumor is true."

1)Goku is at the limit of the limit = his absolute full power.

2)Jiren is far from full power = self-explanatory.

Jiren (holding back) >>> Goku KKx20

3)This power feels different from anyone we've faced before = Jiren is on a completely different league from everyone else (knowing Beerus never used his full power).

4)"He is strong plain and simple" "I daresay...like a God of Destruction" = He is strong like a God of Destruction, but at this point, we don't know if it's the current ones.

Jiren (estimated full power) > Jiren (holding back) >>> Goku KKx20.


4)He is the one who has reached that state ("strong like a god of destruction" state). = He is the first mortal to reach this level of power. The Kaioken being a technique is irrelevant in the fact that Goku isn't stated to reach this level. The Ultra Instinct is a technique too, they do take it into account for Goku's power. The Kaioken raises his power, beyond the limit of his body, but it raises it. So not taking it into account a technique that Goku can use for the sake of it being a technique is simply stupid.

Jiren (estimated full power) > Jiren (holding back) >>> Goku KKx20

5)Perhaps even surpassed it ("the strong like a god of destruction" state) = Self-explanatory, while looking at Vermoud (one of the current God of Destruction). So Whis was actually comparing Jiren to the current God of Destructions (which obviously include Beerus). This means that Jiren's estimated full power is either equal or stronger than the God of Destructions (Beerus...). In eithet case, if Whis even hesitates about putting Jiren equal or above the likes of Beerus when he saw Goku getting stomped, it's pretty obvious that Goku is no match for Beerus.

Jiren (estimated full power) >= Beerus > Jiren (holding back) >>> Goku KKx20

6)There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat. = Perhaps Jiren can't be defeated by a God of Destruction.

7)It appears the rumor is true ("that a mortal can't be defeated by a God of Destruction) = a mortal who can defeat a god of destruction was treated as a rumor that even Whis didn't thought was true until he saw it. Pretty strange if Goku could defeat Beerus, right ? The limitations of the Kaioken are irrelevant too, as Goku can power up to 2 with zero damage on his body. Besides, if he raises his power to 10 or 20, Beerus would become one-shot material if he was weaker than just the basic one. Proved by Whis and Vados casually one-shotting Champa and Beerus in the manga despite being only 1.5x stronger, considering you follow the BoG scale. That would make:

Goku SSJG = 6
Beerus = 10
Goku Blue (Kaioken) = Over 12 (perhaps stronger than Whis).
Whis = 15
Goku Blue (Kaioken x10) = Over 60
Goku Blue (Kaioken x20) = Over 120

Yeah, definitely one-shot material if I follow your reasoning. Thankfully, I don't.

Jiren (estimated full power) >= Beerus > Jiren (holding back) >>> Goku KKx20.

This time, you can't even claim I twisted any statement (which would involve changing their meaning), as I've simply further emphasized what they meant.

I leave the debate for real now.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I already brought up Whis stating that beerus would be in trouble against kaiokens weakest variant with beerus trying to play it off. You can keep pretending that it doesn't exist though.

Goku hadn't reached that state because his peak power is equal to Frieza as stated by toei, so no I couldn't care less about your justifications of trying to lowball Goku based on Whis' statement. And Goku couldn't one shot hit, so I see no reason why he could one shot beerus. Kaioken is referenced nowhere as gokus full power in the story. Ssb is. Goku can fire a Kamehameha stronger than beerus. It doesn't mean anything because it's just a technique.

You're saying that Whis thought jiren as comparable to Belmod and beerus because he looked at belmod? Yeah, no. Not even going to entertain that nonsense. You truly don't have an argument. You're not "emphasizing" anything.

Goku possesses a form that grants ultra instinct. Ultra instinct grants no power boost as shown with beerus.

Just to sum it up, point 4 is nonsense that's contradicted by Toei and the characters themselves. Goku and Frieza were stated to he tied for the strongest on team U7 by toei and they were stated to be equal by Whis. Which means that Goku doesn't possess raw might greater than Frieza.

Point 5 is nonsense. Not even getting into that since the idea that Whis was looking at Belmod because he deems jiren comparable to him isn't implied anywhere.

As for point 6 and 7, yeah it's obvious that jiren is above the current hakaishin. Beerus' reaction makes that clear to see. Goku can be defeated by a hakaishin. Doesn't mean that they're stronger than kaioken.

You can rant all you want. Still wrong though. No evidence=no argument.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Goku doesn't stand a chance at all. There's a reason why Jiren was said to be a Hakaishin level and Goku can only achieve that if he uses Ultra Instinct but not with KK20X.