Super Baby Vegeta, stronger than SSJ Vegito ?

[Ryuzaki]

[No message]

 

[Six Trails]

If Base Goku is stronger than even Gohan-Boo, how would it take him 4 transformations to match Super Vegetto? Are you trying to argue Base Vegetto is multiple times stronger than Gohan-Boo?

 

[Ryuzaki]

If Base Goku is stronger than even Gohan-Boo, how would it take him 4 transformations to match Super Vegetto? Are you trying to argue Base Vegetto is multiple times stronger than Gohan-Boo?

Well, the multipliers might change everything. Going by Rildo's statement, the SSJ doesn't allow the user to be three times stronger.

Now, the two others quotes aren't the most reliable evidences for Super Baby Vegeta > Vegito. So, Vegito's place on Baby arc isn't sure. Vegito ~ SSJ4 Goku might be right, though considering it's source, it's not really reliable.

 

[Six Trails]

Well, I hate to use numbers in a debate to prove a point, but I'll try and be as objective as I can here. Can you agree on these tiny multipliers?

Super Saiyan = 2.5x base (implied by Rild)
Super Saiyan 2 = 1.25x SS
Super Saiyan 3 = 2x SS2

If so, then you get something like this using bare minimum gaps:<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Spoiler: click to toggle</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">Gohan-Boo: 8
General Rild: 9
Base Goku: 10
-SS: 25
-SS2: 31.25
-SS3: 62.5

Vegeta-Baby: 75
-Strongest Form 1: 93.75
-Strongest Form 2: 187.5
-Golden Great Ape: 1,875

SS4 Goku: 1,800

Super Vegetto: 2,000
-base: 40</div>

So even using relatively small gaps, Base Vegetto would end up 5x stronger than Gohan-Boo. If you chose to believe that, be my guest, but I personally don't abide by it.

 

[Ryuzaki]

Well, I hate to use numbers in a debate to prove a point, but I'll try and be as objective as I can here. Can you agree on these tiny multipliers?

Super Saiyan = 2.5x base (implied by Rild)
Super Saiyan 2 = 1.25x SS
Super Saiyan 3 = 2x SS2

If so, then you get something like this using bare minimum gaps:<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Spoiler: click to toggle</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">Gohan-Boo: 8
General Rild: 9
Base Goku: 10
-SS: 25
-SS2: 31.25
-SS3: 62.5

Vegeta-Baby: 75
-Strongest Form 1: 93.75
-Strongest Form 2: 187.5
-Golden Great Ape: 1,875

SS4 Goku: 1,800

Super Vegetto: 2,000
-base: 40</div>

So even using relatively small gaps, Base Vegetto would end up 5x stronger than Gohan-Boo. If you chose to believe that, be my guest, but I personally don't abide by it.

That at least proves that Vegito isn't equal to SSJ4 Goku as SSJ. What about SSJ3 Vegito, then ?

 

[Disasters GoOn]

SSj3 Vegetto (Boo Arc)>/>=SSj4 Goku (Baby Arc) is understandable.

The way I see SSj4, it was supposed to be something that surpassed fusion-tier beings, kind of as something to seem god-like, in other words.

So, SSj4 Goku (Baby Arc) being close to rivals with SSj3 Vegetto makes sense.

 

[Ryuzaki]

SSj3 Vegetto (Boo Arc)>/>=SSj4 Goku (Baby Arc) is understandable.

The way I see SSj4, it was supposed to be something that surpassed fusion-tier beings, kind of as something to seem god-like, in other words.

So, SSj4 Goku (Baby Arc) being close to rivals with SSj3 Vegetto makes sense.

In fact, the SSJ4 is comparable to the Mystic state. But as Goku (GT) is far stronger than in Boo Saga, it's enough to make him strong as Vegito (Boo Saga).

 

[Southern Gothic]

I exist in the camp that holds Baby Vegeta above Vegetto. Most of my reasoning comes from the Goten & Gohan vs Vegeta fight. A couple things here.

Taking what we know about Gohan in GT, he continued to train, improving upon his Mystic state. So we have a Gohan who is not only stronger than he was during the late Boo saga, but gets the added effect of a Baby power up.

Then we have Goten, with a Baby power up. Now, Goten is largely garbage in GT. Compared to some of the Z Fighters in the Boo saga, however, he is quite formidable.

Both of these guys, who could likely put most charactere from the Boo saga to shame regarding battle power, give Vegeta little trouble, who takes this fight largely in his Base Form.

Weighing all of this, I think an argument can be made for Base Vegeta alone being a decent rival to Vegetto. Give him a Baby power up, all the enegy he absorbed from the other Saiyans, and I end up having no problem putting him above Vegetto, regardless of the form.

 

[Six Trails]

Weighing all of this, I think an argument can be made for Base Vegeta alone being a decent rival to Vegetto. Give him a Baby power up, all the enegy he absorbed from the other Saiyans, and I end up having no problem putting him above Vegetto, regardless of the form.

I personally disagree with this. The narrative (in my opinion) makes the most sense if Vegetto isn't surpassed until Super Vegeta-Baby 1 comes around. No one before him got the "greatest Ki I've ever felt" compliment from Goku, and Baby doesn't consider himself the greatest of Saiyan powers until after he's transformed.

 

[Southern Gothic]

Weighing all of this, I think an argument can be made for Base Vegeta alone being a decent rival to Vegetto. Give him a Baby power up, all the enegy he absorbed from the other Saiyans, and I end up having no problem putting him above Vegetto, regardless of the form.

I personally disagree with this. The narrative (in my opinion) makes the most sense if Vegetto isn't surpassed until Super Vegeta-Baby 1 comes around. No one before him got the "greatest Ki I've ever felt" compliment from Goku, and Baby doesn't consider himself the greatest of Saiyan powers until after he's transformed.

Very fair points. I should clarify, because stating him as a "decent rival" might be to strong a wording and give the wrong impression. By no means to I think Baby saga Vegeta has surpassed Vegetto. Rather, I believe that he is close enough that adding Baby and the absorbed powers combined should be more than enough to put him over Vegetto.

I totally agree with the narrative. And I think the Vegeta vs Gohan/Goten fight supports it.

:shit

 

[Pyro]

I wouldn't put Vegeta that close to Vegetto. You still have to fit Super Saiyan 2 and 3 Goku in there, and then base Vegeta-Baby. Putting Vegeta as a rival to Vegetto makes things extremely tight, no homo.

<div class='spoiler_toggle'>numbers for my own use later on</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">Gohan-Boo - 280,000,000,000,000
Vegetto - 100,000,000,000,000
SSjin Vegetto - 5,000,000,000,000,000

Fantastic Gohan - 165,000,000,000,000
Base Gohan-Baby - 230,000,000,000,000
SSjin Gohan-Baby - 575,000,000,000,000

Vegeta - 325,000,000,000,000
SSjin Vegeta (initial) - 630,000,000,000,000
SSjin Vegeta (powered up) - 700,000,000,000,000
SSjin Vegeta - 812,500,000,000,000

Rild - 300,000,000,000,000

Goku - 325,000,000,000,000
SSjin Goku - 812,500,000,000,000
SSjin 2 Goku - 1,218,750,000,000,000
SSjin 3 Goku - 3,656,250,000,000,000

Vegeta-Baby - 4,400,000,000,000,000</div>

oh god that page stretch

 

[Southern Gothic]

Do you have room for an SSJ2 Vegeta in there? Or is it too inconsistent to be bothered with?

By those numbers, SSJ2 Vegeta would only be a about x3 SSJ Vegetto. Again, "decent rival" was a poor use of words. I sort of ignored the fact that we were getting into the trillions and beyond.

But still, we are talking about a difference that is about equal to Goku vs Vegeta in the Saiyan saga, when scaled down. To me that does give Super Baby Vegeta a good case to be the all time supreme power at that point in the series.

Not that you are arguing. I'm just thinking out loud.

Althoug, would I be correct in saying that you don’t include a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto? Cause he would be pretty high by your numbers. Again, just picking your brain.

<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Spoiler: click to toggle</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">
Does anybody ever think about what a DBZ argument sounds like out of context? I imagined saying the above paragraph out loud to, like, my boss or grandmother. I would probably be locked up in an asylum.



</div>

 

[Pyro]

SSjin 2 Vegeta would be the same as SSjin 2 Goku. He fits in way under SSjin Vegetto.

 

[p123]

Nice thread. I've always taken Rild's comment to be about Kid Buu.

And Super Baby Vegeta surpassing Vegetto is how I take it as well. I go with what makes the most sense to me.

 

[Six Trails]

That's explicitly ignoring Gohan being stated to have trained.

 

[p123]

Yea that's fine. I don't think Gohan kept his Ultimate power up in GT. I don't go by the Perfect Files.

 

[Pyro]

Yea that's fine. I don't think Gohan kept his Ultimate power up in GT. I don't go by the Perfect Files.

If you don't abide by the information provided, what's stopping you from just making things up? Granted, there are mistakes, such as Super Saiyan 2's neglect, but that's blatantly contradicted by the show itself with Goku using the form against Rild and arguably Baby. Things like Gohan training aren't contradicted, and are in fact supported by him having the same look in GT as he did after going Fantastic.

 

[Southern Gothic]

Yea that's fine. I don't think Gohan kept his Ultimate power up in GT. I don't go by the Perfect Files.

If you don't abide by the information provided, what's stopping you from just making things up? Granted, there are mistakes, such as Super Saiyan 2's neglect, but that's blatantly contradicted by the show itself with Goku using the form against Rild and arguably Baby. Things like Gohan training aren't contradicted, and are in fact supported by him having the same look in GT as he did after going Fantastic.

I use to believe Gohan had gotten weaker. Taking only what the anime gives you, I can see how that point of view could be made. He goes from top dogduring Boo to being insignificant in GT. Plus he has a history of slacking, and can go SSJ again.

It wasn't until I started on forums that my view changed, based off of evidence from other members. The case certainly favors what the perfect files say, in my opinion, but I don’t think the opposite view is out of line.

Like the flat earth society.

 

[Pyro]

It's a possibility, and I probably even believed it back in the day, but it's just as supported in the anime that he didn't lose power. Goku and Vegeta just got stronger.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

Super and GT both dance around the issue because they want you to forget about Gohan. Super broke new ground by putting Ultimate Gohan in the opening, but we never hear anyone discussing it.

I'm honestly not sure if Gohan did keep his powerup; I'm not going to contest that he's in the Super Boo tier, but so is Goten. How did that happen, and why couldn't it have happened to Gohan too?

The only issue is that Toei seems to consider Ultimate and Super Saiyan mutually exclusive. Gohan being Super Saiyan in Battle of Gods was a mistake, not some kind of calculated move that's meant to show Gohan's deterioration.