Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta vs Ultimate Gohan

[p123]

This occurs during the time they fight Beerus. Has Vegeta really advanced this much that he can now defeat Gohan?

 

[Pyro]

No. Vegeta would get royally bodied. I have no reason to put him on Gohan's level, or Goku for that matter.

 

[p123]

Goku is stated to the be the strongest several times and implied several times in the story though.

 

[Pyro]

Not a single statement says Goku is the strongest, and the one that comes the closest (I'm assuming Vegeta's "Kakarot became #1 after beating Boo") is character-driven rather than an actual strength testament. There is no way to faithfully gauge a fighter's strength in the fights against Beerus. Vegeta knew Beerus was capable of soundly beating Goku, yet stated Beerus was even stronger than he thought after Gotenks and Gohan were taken out. That only makes sense if Beerus did something to change his opinion, like beating someone/someones stronger than Goku.

 

[ahill1]

I echoes Pyrus' take on the matter. There isn't a single statement in the manga implying the status quo from the Boo saga changed, either.

 

[p123]

Goten- I guess the strongest person in the world really is Mom.

Vegeta never said anything of the sort. He knew and always knew that none of them had a chance against Beerus. He makes no such comment as you say in the manga.

 

[ahill1]

Goten- I guess the strongest person in the world really is Mom.

Vegeta never said anything of the sort. He knew and always knew that none of them had a chance against Beerus. He makes no such comment as you say in the manga.

He makes such comment in the movie, P. That's what Pyrus is referring to.

As for Gotenk saying that, that's an interesting line. I personally think it's more like a tongue-in-cheeck statement not supposed to be taken too seriously, but I agree that it gives a "Goku is the strongest" vibe.

What do you think about the image training? Goku one shots Freeza and Cell in SSJ and seems ready to face Kid Boo as a SSJ... maybe that's an implication of Goku growing strong enough to compete with Kid Boo with simply SSJ?

 

[p123]

I'm talking about the manga.

 

[Kyo]

sit

 

[ahill1]

I'm talking about the manga.

Cool. So you take Goten's statement as a suggestion that Goku is the strongest? Haven't seen it from this angle.

 

[p123]

Not sure. I think I'll get into Super now. I have a one of a kind point of view.

I am rethinking it now. I don't think Goku has to necessarily be the strongest.

I think it's clear that Goku and Vegeta have caught up a whole lot, but there's a big difference between the anime and manga. A lot of things we consider concrete are not necessary...

I gotta think about it a bit more...

Also, Goku and Vegeta's potential skyrocketing because of fusing as Vegetto is the only way to make sense of any radical boost in power they achieve post Buu Saga...

If Goku and Vegeta somehow both have the potential of Vegetto now, it definitely explains a lot.

I like how the manga uses Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks as well.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Manga-wise, Gohan stomps. The image training sequence implies SSJ Goku is at best around Pure Boo's level, so unless giving him some ridiculous plot-based SS2 multiplier, neither he nor Vegeta are touching Gohan's level until after the God ritual and Rage Boost respectively.

Anime-wise. Vegeta probably wins since he implies he's still the 2nd strongest Saiyan and doing so would be pointless if only referring to pure blooded Saiyans when the only other one outside of he and Goku he knew was still living was Tarble.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I think only Goku who managed to surpass Gohan by this event so Vegeta lose badly here.

 

[Pyro]

Ah, the manga. There's even less to put Goku (and Vegeta) on top then. We don't see Gohan or Boo fight; they're simply blasted away in their debut panel. Gohan looks Ultimate, though, judging by the single large bang, but we later see him use Super Saiyan for the ritual. Gotenks decided to fight as a Super Saiyan 3 despite witnessing that.

Vegeta's rage boost never got treated as superior to SSJ3 Goku by Roshi. Krillin wondered if Vegeta was always "that" strong, but that's kind of vague. Kibitoshin feared the planet would get destroyed if Vegeta and Beerus kept fighting, so that may be something.

And like CC said, if we take the image training seriously, it would indicate SSJ Goku had gotten to Kid Boo's level, but that's a level pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks had already surpassed, not to even get into post-RoSaT Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan tiers.

 

[Buki]

Simple. Gohan was intended to be SSJ but they just changed his design. His power was never taken at face value. Thats why in the ToP Arc, Ultimate Gohan is treated like big deal which is why Piccolo mentioned his power vs Evil Boo like it never happened after.

 

[p123]

I think I got it.

Rated Vegeta > Ssj3 Goku > Gohan > Gotenks > Vegeta

Goku and Vegeta make ridiculous progress and are now relevant to Gotenks and Gohan. Similar levels of power.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Simple. Gohan was intended to be SSJ but they just changed his design. His power was never taken at face value.

If that were the case, Super would rectified this in their adaption of the arc, yet clearly didn't. Original intent doesn't mean anything compared to the final product as if it did, then Goku was a SSJ against the Ginyus in the Anoyoichi Budokai filler and #19 and #20 are as strong as Trunks said without question.

Thats why in the ToP Arc, Ultimate Gohan is treated like big deal which is why Piccolo mentioned his power vs Evil Boo like it never happened after.

Because that was Ultimate Gohan's one stand out moment against on opponent at that point. When trying to rouse Gohan into regaining his former glory, he certainly wasn't going to mention how he got his ass kicked by Beerus.

Ah, the manga. There's even less to put Goku (and Vegeta) on top then. We don't see Gohan or Boo fight; they're simply blasted away in their debut panel. Gohan looks Ultimate, though, judging by the single large bang, but we later see him use Super Saiyan for the ritual. Gotenks decided to fight as a Super Saiyan 3 despite witnessing that.

To be fair, was Gotenks supposed to just sit there and watch? Him just charging into battle without care for his opponent's strength is an established character trait of his as seen in his debut.

 

[Buki]

Toei copied pasted everything from the movie into the BoG arc. Gotenks is obviously shown to be more powerful than Goku at least in equal forms in both movie and anime.

As for Piccolo telling Gohan to show his true power. I dont think you noticed that its implied he never went ultimate since then. Thats the point imo

 

[Pyro]

Simple. Gohan was intended to be SSJ but they just changed his design. His power was never taken at face value.

If that were the case, Super would rectified this in their adaption of the arc, yet clearly didn't. Original intent doesn't mean anything compared to the final product as if it did, then Goku was a SSJ against the Ginyus in the Anoyoichi Budokai filler and #19 and #20 are as strong as Trunks said without question.

Thats why in the ToP Arc, Ultimate Gohan is treated like big deal which is why Piccolo mentioned his power vs Evil Boo like it never happened after.

Because that was Ultimate Gohan's one stand out moment against on opponent at that point. When trying to rouse Gohan into regaining his former glory, he certainly wasn't going to mention how he got his ass kicked by Beerus.

Ah, the manga. There's even less to put Goku (and Vegeta) on top then. We don't see Gohan or Boo fight; they're simply blasted away in their debut panel. Gohan looks Ultimate, though, judging by the single large bang, but we later see him use Super Saiyan for the ritual. Gotenks decided to fight as a Super Saiyan 3 despite witnessing that.

To be fair, was Gotenks supposed to just sit there and watch? Him just charging into battle without care for his opponent's strength is an established character trait of his as seen in his debut.

People will use the fact that Vegeta fought Beerus despite the others getting beat, but with that logic, Gotenks has to be stronger than Gohan.

 

[ahill1]

Considering Beerus stated "Not the SSJG either" once experiencing rage Vegeta's power, I'd argue that rage Vegeta surpassed Gohan and Gotenks, which is also pretty much implied by his superior performance. As for Goku, I see no reason for him to have surpassed Gohan and Gotenks until getting the God power.