Super Saiyan 3 Multiplier

[FeatsofPower]

Piccolo considers that Gotenks needs more training.

How much more training? One days worth? What can he expect out of that? He either has the power or he doesn't.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”

This happens after Old Kaioshin was unlocked, and Super Boo was formed when his 24h ritual was almost done. The boys were due to fight Boo within a few hours.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

How much more training? One days worth? What can he expect out of that? He either has the power or he doesn't.

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.4-5
Context: after evil Boo shows up and demand to fight Gotenks
Piccolo: "Go hit Trunks and Goten to wake them up, and take them into the Room of Spirit and Time...! Even in just 1 hour, they'll be able to do 15 days worth of training."

This happens after Old Kaioshin was unlocked, and Super Boo was formed when his 24h ritual was almost done. The boys were due to fight Boo within a few hours.

Even when Super Buu was formed, the ritual still continued, Gohan also tell him to hurry up to Old Kaioshin (it wasn't until Buu arrives into the Lookout in which the 25 hours ritual finished and he had already annhilated humanity). Super Buu's impatience is what accelerated rhytm of the things and make Piccolo change of opinion and hurry them to train.

 

[ahill1]

Piccolo never suggests the boy go to the RoSaT until Super Boo, Natasha. The need to go to the room only arises when Super Boo comes. The boys were even sleeping and resting when fat Boo was around, Piccolo didn't plan the RoSaT. He said they train for one day because, why not? You've one day available, then train to maximize even more your chances. And Piccolo states Gotenks' power is "really" impressive, with the really indicating he had expectations that were met. What expectations? Goku stating the fusion will be stronger than even him.

And the gamble can easily refer to other things, like Boo getting fed up and destroying the planet or the entire population before they were ready. Boo was still unpredictable. The gamble doesn't need to be related to their power. Goku or Piccolo even used the word gamble before, iirc, to refer to them mastering the fusion in time or Boo destroying the entire planet.


Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P11.1-3
Context: Goku tells Piccolo that he ‘probably’ couldn’t have defeated Boo with Super Saiyan 3
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No… I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”


Pay attention that Goku specifically highlighted their power as a reason to take the gamble. So their power not being enough as a possibility would be the gamble when that's the sole reason Goku wished to take the gamble? Nah, it's way more likely the gamble is referring to things beyond their control.

As for Goku saying they might need to use it later, it's likely it's just referring to another situation besides fat Boo that might run out of control. After all, Goku was preparing the new generation specifically for the hypothesis of another threat coming up and him not being there. He never brings up the RoSaT for fat Boo.

Also worth noting that when Piccolo tells Kuririn to get the boys to the room, Kuririn asks "aren't they gonna fight now?"... meaning to Kuririn RoSaT wasn't something planned either. They never made it to be until Super Boo.

SSj Gotenks >> Fat Boo even before the RoSaT is a lot more likely than vice versa.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Piccolo never suggests the boy go to the RoSaT until Super Boo, Natasha. The need to go to the room only arises when Super Boo comes. The boys were even sleeping and resting when fat Boo was around, Piccolo didn't plan the RoSaT. He said they train for one day because, why not? You've one day available, then train to maximize even more your chances. And Piccolo states Gotenks' power is "really" impressive, with the really indicating he had expectations that were met. What expectations? Goku stating the fusion will be stronger than even him.

And the gamble can easily refer to other things, like Boo getting fed up and destroying the planet or the entire population before they were ready. Boo was still unpredictable. The gamble doesn't need to be related to their power. Goku or Piccolo even used the word gamble before, iirc, to refer to them mastering the fusion in time or Boo destroying the entire planet.


Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P11.1-3
Context: Goku tells Piccolo that he ‘probably’ couldn’t have defeated Boo with Super Saiyan 3
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No… I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”


Pay attention that Goku specifically highlighted their power as a reason to take the gamble. So their power not being enough as a possibility would be the gamble when that's the sole reason Goku wished to take the gamble? Nah, it's way more likely the gamble is referring to things beyond their control.

As for Goku saying they might need to use it later, it's likely it's just referring to another situation besides fat Boo that might run out of control. After all, Goku was preparing the new generation specifically for the hypothesis of another threat coming up and him not being there. He never brings up the RoSaT for fat Boo.

Also worth noting that when Piccolo tells Kuririn to get the boys to the room, Kuririn asks "aren't they gonna fight now?"... meaning to Kuririn RoSaT wasn't something planned either. They never made it to be until Super Boo.

SSj Gotenks >> Fat Boo even before the RoSaT is a lot more likely than vice versa.

People seems to be under the impression that the whole reason that Piccolo decided to use the Rosat is due to Super Buu, but that was after they were cornered, not before, we don't know what plan Piccolo exactly have but we know they had 1 day and that they need training (we also have Piccolo saying Fusion not being enough yet which can also mean that Gotenks was never good enough to begin with). They could rest and train, resting is also important when it comes to training. Piccolo never compares him with anything neither it says that is strong enough to accomplish the goal of defeating Buu when he was in SSJ.

Not really, Goku also suggest the Dragon Balls and Fat Buu isn't necessarily someone who would blow up the planet in an instant, he was destroying cities and giving his time. Gotenks is still a work in progress at this point.

Sounds like an opinion to me, he wanted them to resolve things one way or another. We have a too limited data on the topic, but Goku thinking Gotenks will prevail against Buu without a doubt is too much of a stretch.

Krillin wasn't neccesarily thinking clearly since he also was fine with Gotenks battling Super Buu without any training. Everything related to Gotenks until he went SSJ3 is too speculative for me, since we only have statements without support and can be inferred one way or another.

 

[ahill1]

@Natasha Romanoff

It's not an assumption when he never mentioned the RoSaT unless when Goku didn't agree with the idea. Besides, Piccolo said they had 1 day and should train for 1 day... if he were planning to use the Room, that wouldn't be 1 day, that would be 1 year for them. Piccolo never said the product didn't match the expectations. Rather, he said Gotenks is really incredible.

Goku suggests the DBs, but they'd also be gone if Boo destroys the planet, which is why Piccolo stopped Gotenks' all out attack on Super Boo. Even destroying cities and larger areas is dangerous in case one of them is there.

It's an opinion more likely than him wanting to use it against Super Boo... he said they "might" need to use it later, it wasn't a sure thing. Which complements well his statement of possible future enemies ravaging Earth or maybe even an unpredictable sudden thing happening, like Super Boo. It was a "might", that is, a possibility.

Their chi sensing seemed dull with Super Boo, as Piccolo also had to inform Goten and Trunks he's wayy stronger than the fat. That doesn't mean he didn't follow along Goku's plan. I think the statements are clear enough. Goku states they will surely do it, Piccolo only wants to test his speed and no movements from Piccolo are made to put them in the RoSaT until Super Boo. Also, the "fusion hasn't been enough" was a little tweaked by Viz. In the original Piccolo just stated fusion isnt enough, not hasn't been.

 

[FeatsofPower]

We have a too limited data on the topic, but Goku thinking Gotenks will prevail against Buu without a doubt is too much of a stretch.

He says the boys can definitely beat Buu.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Even when Super Buu was formed, the ritual still continued, Gohan also tell him to hurry up to Old Kaioshin (it wasn't until Buu arrives into the Lookout in which the 25 hours ritual finished and he had already annhilated humanity). Super Buu's impatience is what accelerated rhytm of the things and make Piccolo change of opinion and hurry them to train.

Boo only waited half an hour before throwing a tantrum. That might not have been a full 48 hours cycle, but this is definitely happening the day after the boys mastered fusion.

 

[Hector]

If Base Gotenks is Super Saiyan 2 tier

I think SSJ Gotenks is closer to SSJ3 Goku than Base Gotenks is to SSJ2 Goku.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I think SSJ Gotenks is closer to SSJ3 Goku than Base Gotenks is to SSJ2 Goku.

You could be right.

 

[Hector]

You could be right.

How about this?

SSJ2 Goku- 100
Good Buu- 120
Evil Buu- 160
Fat Buu- 280
SSJ3 Goku- 300
Base Gotenks- 160
SSJ Gotenks- 320

 

[FeatsofPower]

SSJ2 Goku- 100
Good Buu- 120
Evil Buu- 160
Fat Buu- 280
SSJ3 Goku- 300
Base Gotenks- 160
SSJ Gotenks- 320

You are going to have to justify why Super Saiyan is so weak. If Super Saiyan 3 seems to be as big of a boost as Super Saiyan, we need to adjust Super Saiyan 3's multiplier, not Super Saiyan.

 

[Hector]

You are going to have to justify why Super Saiyan is so weak. If Super Saiyan 3 seems to be as big of a boost as Super Saiyan, we need to adjust Super Saiyan 3's multiplier, not Super Saiyan.

Why can't SSJ be 2x Second Base, with the Second Base being 25x Original Base?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Why can't SSJ be 2x Second Base, with the Second Base being 25x Original Base?

Because Super Saiyan has been shown to be a large boost. At least 10x. Nothing in the story indicates Super Saiyan should work differently for one fighter compared to another. Your aversion to large numbers doesn't affect the facts.

 

[Hector]

Because Super Saiyan has been shown to be a large boost. At least 10x. Nothing in the story indicates Super Saiyan should work differently for one fighter compared to another. Your aversion to large numbers doesn't affect the facts.

After Freeza Saga, does anything indicate it has to be more than 2x Second Base a boost both for individual fighters and fusions?

 

[Animelover5487]

After Freeza Saga, does anything indicate it has to be more than 2x Second Base a boost both for individual fighters and fusions?

Why doesn't Goku just use Kaioken anymore if SSJ offers that little of a boost. Goku can use Kaioken x10 casually after all.

 

[Hector]

Why doesn't Goku just use Kaioken anymore if SSJ offers that little of a boost. Goku can use Kaioken x10 casually after all.

I theorize that Kaioken becomes less and less effective when power level goes beyond the low millions. That explains why no one else, especially Piccolo, ever bothered to use it.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I theorize that Kaioken becomes less and less effective when power level goes beyond the low millions. That explains why no one else, especially Piccolo, ever bothered to use it.

KKx20 Super Saiyan Blue disproves this theory. Kaioken has always been this effective.

 

[Hector]

KKx20 Super Saiyan Blue disproves this theory. Kaioken has always been this effective.

Screw DBS. Otherwise, Roshi can beat everyone in DBZ. Also, KKX20 doesn't have to still be 20x base at that level.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Screw DBS. Otherwise, Roshi can beat everyone in DBZ. Also, KKX20 doesn't have to still be 20x base at that level.

Well, DBS is canon, so there's not much we can do about it. KKx20 is absolutely 20x whatever level they are using. It's literally built in the name.