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Here is my nearly finished argument about the strength level of Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT. I split it up into two separate part. One part covers the translations and the other is counters to common misconceptions used to power up Gotenks.
Thank-you!! :elmo
Anthony Storr
Gotenks Pre-RoSaT
Goku still has the RoSaT in the back of his head. But that is proven later.
Even after he asks them to power up to full power he's still uncertain if they are truly at their full battle power. This is another way of saying that Goku doesn't know how power they are up until this particular point; coincidentally, this also debunks his statement about.
Toriyama stated in an interview that to get stronger, one has to master Chi and use it to amplify their abilities. During the scuffle at the tournament, neither fighter used Chi to amplify their battle power. It's never drawn or shown. If they had, Goku wouldn't feel compelled to ask them to do so and than question them when they did it, if they actually did do it before-hand.
Argument:
Goku saw them at the World Martial Arts Tournament & they turned Super Saiyan.
Counter-Argument
The boys were never shown to power up to their full power during their bout' at the World Martial Arts Tournament. Additionally, standing Chi -or momentarily becoming a Super Saiyan, is much different than powering up to ones full ability. Hence why Goku asks them to force themselves to reach the pinnacle of their strength.
So, now we've established that Goku introduces fusion, asks to see their full battle power and later laments on how he expects them to solve things 'somehow or another'. This doesn't sound like Goku is entirely certain that their battle power as Gotenks will definitely be greater than Boo's.
They failed the fusion twice before being able to transform into the product by nothing more than sheer chance. It was definitely not an example of mastery, and definitely not comparable to how 'controlled' and 'perfected' the technique became after their entrance into the RoSaT.
Gotenks is still a work in progress at this point.
Gotenks' is over-estimating himself here and has now proven to be an unreliable character in terms of power statements.
This is blatant evidence that 'X' can refer to 'Xs' battle power as 'Absolutely amazing', yet remain doubtful of what they can do, but still give them the benefit of the doubt based upon how they feel about themselves.
The fight with Majin Boo is within 1 day and Piccolo continues to insist that the boys need to continue to train for it. In other-words, it means that they still aren't up to par with defeating Majin Boo, even as Super Saiyans, which is Piccolo's entire plan here. Piccolo has been around Super Saiyans for his entire life, even longer than either Goten or Trunks have been alive, so if he's insisting that they need to continue to train to power themselves up, it also means that the product of the sum isn't up to par either.
It would be illogical for them to train 'as much as they can' if they could simply perform fusion as Super Saiyans and go defeated Boo in the alloted time.
Additionally, if you truly believe Goku can gauge the powers of the Metamoran people and the sum of the product, and than accurately determine exactly how powerful Gotenks' would be -with a technique he's never tried out before, prior to even seeing the full Chi of Goten & Trunks, than you are forced to believe that Piccolo can accurately determine how strong Gotenks 'should' become by turning Super Saiyan. Yet it creates a logical fallacy when he asks them to train as much as the can for the fight.
Long story short, Gotenks' is still a work in progress.
It covers the ground basics that Chi, strength & speed do not all correlate the same with every character, species or transformation. There are a-lot of conflicting scenarios that occur through-out Dragonball Z.
In this particular scenario, Piccolo confirms that Gotenks' has become powerful and wants to begin testing him out to see where he stands. To see what he's working with. However, that is not the same as saying his high Chi means he's more powerful than Majin Boo. Toriyama has previously stated in an interview that in order to become powerful, Chi control is very important. Just because Piccolo calls his Chi huge doesn't mean Gotenks has full control over it. And because strength doesn't correlate with speed, Piccolo is trying to grasp what kind of control he has over his Chi.
(Example: Goku 90,000 versus Ginyu 120,000. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku and proved so when he got him into an arm-bar, but his speed fell desperately short).
Gotenks' believes he's strong enough to defeat Boo just based off how fast he is. That also means he's completely unreliable, that also means this particular statement discredits itself by the merits of the character who stated it. As my point above proved, just because Gotenks is quick does not necessarily mean he's powerful.
Additionally, Piccolo refers to Boo's Chi was a difference in how it feels, not that it necessarily raised exponentially by as much as 100-fold. He than puts more emphasis on on Boo's new body and how he's completely evil.
a) Gotenks & the boys can no longer train.
b) Everybody's lives are now at risk, including the last hope Earth truly has.
c) Piccolo has to figure something out now, not in 1 day, now.
d) The Dragonballs are now at risk.
Counter Arguments to Common Misconceptions
Conclusion:
Thank-you!! :elmo
Anthony Storr
Gotenks Pre-RoSaT
Goku clearly states that he's never tried the fusion out before. But he affirms that it at least results in some serious gains.
This statement is made prior to Goku knowing about the full extent of Goten & Trunks' Chi, so he cannot accurately gauge how powerful they will become.
Goku still has the RoSaT in the back of his head. But that is proven later.
Here is a contradictory statement to the one above. Goku hadn't had the chance to properly gauge their full power. Therefore it's a logical fallacy to determine that he would be able accurately say Gotenks Pre-RoSaT could definitely defeat Majin Boo; at least in the terms of pure battle power.
Even after he asks them to power up to full power he's still uncertain if they are truly at their full battle power. This is another way of saying that Goku doesn't know how power they are up until this particular point; coincidentally, this also debunks his statement about.
Toriyama stated in an interview that to get stronger, one has to master Chi and use it to amplify their abilities. During the scuffle at the tournament, neither fighter used Chi to amplify their battle power. It's never drawn or shown. If they had, Goku wouldn't feel compelled to ask them to do so and than question them when they did it, if they actually did do it before-hand.
Argument:
Goku saw them at the World Martial Arts Tournament & they turned Super Saiyan.
Counter-Argument
The boys were never shown to power up to their full power during their bout' at the World Martial Arts Tournament. Additionally, standing Chi -or momentarily becoming a Super Saiyan, is much different than powering up to ones full ability. Hence why Goku asks them to force themselves to reach the pinnacle of their strength.
The highlighted part makes it fairly obvious that Goku is planning on them achieving victory somehow or another. If Goku actually felt that the product of the fusion would undeniably be power enough to defeat Boo, there would be no reason for him to speak in uncertain terms about how they will defeat Boo. However, upon seeing their latent battle power and fighting ability, he feels compelled to believe that they can find some way to win if they can learn to fuse in the alloted time. However, this isn't the same as saying they will definitely surpass Majin Boo in battle power.
So, now we've established that Goku introduces fusion, asks to see their full battle power and later laments on how he expects them to solve things 'somehow or another'. This doesn't sound like Goku is entirely certain that their battle power as Gotenks will definitely be greater than Boo's.
Chi-Chi is busy lamenting about the safety of her child, but Goku assures her everything will be fine. However, Goku's prediction is only relevant if the fusion is perfected. Now we have ascertained that Goku originally said they can win of they perform fusion 'successfully', but that is made prior to seeing their full capabilities and being able to accurately gauge the sum of the product, now he's changed his opinion to them 'perfecting' the fusion as opposed to simply 'performing it successfully'.
They failed the fusion twice before being able to transform into the product by nothing more than sheer chance. It was definitely not an example of mastery, and definitely not comparable to how 'controlled' and 'perfected' the technique became after their entrance into the RoSaT.
Gotenks' comes into existence for the 'first time'. The Metamoran technique is not mastered and won't be until they hit the RoSaT. Gotenks' is currently unable to willingly turn Super Saiyan after fusing. Why? Because when the Fat Majin Boo was busy beating his ass he couldn't do anything about it. Gotenks' is still limited to his Base transformation after fusing and can only access Super Saiyan by performing it before fusing. Conclusively, that goes against Goku's statement of Gotenks' perfecting the technique and of Gotenks not losing the bout' against Fat Boo.
Gotenks is still a work in progress at this point.
This statement solidifies the fact that the technique wasn't mastered yet. Piccolo wants them to try as Super Saiyans but Gotenks' refuses. If he could simply turn 'Super Saiyan' at will, he could simply do so now, or during the time Boo had him on the ropes, but he can't.
Gotenks' is over-estimating himself here and has now proven to be an unreliable character in terms of power statements.
In this statement, Krillen uses the word 'haughty' to describe Gotenks. Haughty means to be overly proud of ones capabilities. However, he is giving him the benefit of the doubt because of his confidence in his abilities. Yamcha agrees with this notion.
This is blatant evidence that 'X' can refer to 'Xs' battle power as 'Absolutely amazing', yet remain doubtful of what they can do, but still give them the benefit of the doubt based upon how they feel about themselves.
Gotenks' was clearly unable to turn Super Saiyan to combat Boo and ended up getting his butt kicked.
The fight with Majin Boo is within 1 day and Piccolo continues to insist that the boys need to continue to train for it. In other-words, it means that they still aren't up to par with defeating Majin Boo, even as Super Saiyans, which is Piccolo's entire plan here. Piccolo has been around Super Saiyans for his entire life, even longer than either Goten or Trunks have been alive, so if he's insisting that they need to continue to train to power themselves up, it also means that the product of the sum isn't up to par either.
It would be illogical for them to train 'as much as they can' if they could simply perform fusion as Super Saiyans and go defeated Boo in the alloted time.
Additionally, if you truly believe Goku can gauge the powers of the Metamoran people and the sum of the product, and than accurately determine exactly how powerful Gotenks' would be -with a technique he's never tried out before, prior to even seeing the full Chi of Goten & Trunks, than you are forced to believe that Piccolo can accurately determine how strong Gotenks 'should' become by turning Super Saiyan. Yet it creates a logical fallacy when he asks them to train as much as the can for the fight.
Long story short, Gotenks' is still a work in progress.
Here is a link to my other thread: http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3609
It covers the ground basics that Chi, strength & speed do not all correlate the same with every character, species or transformation. There are a-lot of conflicting scenarios that occur through-out Dragonball Z.
In this particular scenario, Piccolo confirms that Gotenks' has become powerful and wants to begin testing him out to see where he stands. To see what he's working with. However, that is not the same as saying his high Chi means he's more powerful than Majin Boo. Toriyama has previously stated in an interview that in order to become powerful, Chi control is very important. Just because Piccolo calls his Chi huge doesn't mean Gotenks has full control over it. And because strength doesn't correlate with speed, Piccolo is trying to grasp what kind of control he has over his Chi.
Gotenks' is making the bold mistake of believing that his strength has raised as much as his speed and that the two scale linearly. They don't. There is a connecting point between the two, but one can be as much as 33% lower than the other.
(Example: Goku 90,000 versus Ginyu 120,000. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku and proved so when he got him into an arm-bar, but his speed fell desperately short).
Gotenks' believes he's strong enough to defeat Boo just based off how fast he is. That also means he's completely unreliable, that also means this particular statement discredits itself by the merits of the character who stated it. As my point above proved, just because Gotenks is quick does not necessarily mean he's powerful.
Here we see that Majin Boo's evil portion begins to take over and it causes the split into Good Boo & Grey Boo.
This means that instead of the Good Boo being in charged of the power, the Evil one took over and that Evil Boo now had more access to a greater pool of energy.
Majin Boo's Chi immediately changes in how it feels. The same thing is said about Goku's Chi when he was at Super Saiyan 3, and now both fighters have been sensed from the World Of The Kais, so presumably, Majin Boo's battle power has now reached the heights of Super Saiyan 3.
Additionally, Piccolo refers to Boo's Chi was a difference in how it feels, not that it necessarily raised exponentially by as much as 100-fold. He than puts more emphasis on on Boo's new body and how he's completely evil.
Now that Majin Boo has upgraded even further, he can now detect the Chi of others. This is the paramount turning point for Gotenks because:
a) Gotenks & the boys can no longer train.
b) Everybody's lives are now at risk, including the last hope Earth truly has.
c) Piccolo has to figure something out now, not in 1 day, now.
d) The Dragonballs are now at risk.
Counter Arguments to Common Misconceptions
Argument
a) Gotenks Base Pre-RoSaT survived Majin Boo, Vegeta didn't; therefore he has to be around Super Saiyan 2 power.
Counter-Argument
There are countless scenarios where a weaker fighter survives a stronger fighter, but it doesn't mean they are stronger than anybody else. Some examples include Hercule fighting Perfect Cell & Kid Boo. Vegeta in his Ssj2 & Base form being mercilessly assaulted by Kid Boo -who is not known to hold back power. Kaioshin surviving Boo. Surviving a fight doesn't account for anything.
Argument
b) Gotenks says Gotenks' will defeat Majin Boo and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
Goku made the statement prior to being able to accurately gauge the strength of the boys. Therefore it's not an accurate power statement and is contradicted when he isn't even certain if what they're showing them is their full power.
Argument
c) Goku didn't think they needed the RoSaT
Counter-Argument
Actually, within the context of the statement Goku only says 'no' to using it for the sole purpose of speeding up the time it will take to learn the fusion. He later says 'they might need it later'. This also contradicts the notion that Gotenks' strength wasn't contradicted and debunks the notion that he didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Argument
d) Goku isn't an idiot, he wouldn't risk the entire Universe unless he was certain the boys could win.
Counter-Argument
Gotenks was remarked as being able to win 'one way or another', this doesn't have to include battle power as Goku has seen the fusion before and knows it likely yields some weird powers.
Additionally, Piccolo says the same thing to Gotenks about both Boo's: that he needs to 'train and train' in preparation for both fights. The statement isn't contradicted in either situation, therefore it's true until contradicted.
Also, Goku figured they would learn to fuse quickly, which would give them the remainder of the time to focus on training, and if need be, they could use the RoSaT. So no, Goku isn't an idiot, but it doesn't mean Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT would be strong enough to defeat Majin Boo without the benefits of training, because Goku wasn't certain if he would be or not.
Argument
e) Piccolo only question Gotenks' speed, not his power.
Counter-Argument
My analysis in another topic proves that speed doesn't correlate with strength in linear progression. Hence why Piccolo was testing him. Gotenks was foolish enough to believe so, but this is completely false. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku on Namek, but he was much slower. Because speed & strength can differ so greatly from one another, it makes it impossible to judge a characters power based solely on speed alone.
Argument
f) Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than him and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife).
Argument:
g) Goku is stupid and a serial killer because he let 10% of the Earth die.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo was willing to let Super Boo annihilate the entire population (7 Billion people, or the remaining 90%) for the sole purpose of giving Gotenks a chance to close the gap.
Goku knows they still have the Dragon Balls and previously told Gohan during the Cell Games not to worry about whatever damage he does because it can all be reversed with the Dragon Balls.
After Kid Boo appeared, Goku was teleported to the World Of The Kais and he says:
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Goku is willing to make the sacrifice to give Gotenks a chance to succeed, because all the damage can later be undone.
Argument:
Goku didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Counter-Argument:
Actually, if you look at the context of the statement:
So finally, Goku isn't 100% certain if Gotenks, even as a Super Saiyan, would become strong enough. The RoSaT was a back-up plan just in case he wasn't. This also debunks pretty much all the Gotenks Pre-RoSaT arguments.
Argument
a) Fusion doesn't scale linearly.
Counter-Argument
This particular argument uses the quote from Piccolo that says 'even if you get just a little stronger, it will be more effective when you perform fusion'. All this means is 'Goten + 1 / Trunks + 1 = Gotenks +n 2'.
Therefore 'Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre' is hereby disproven. Additionally, Piccolo started to build hope based off how perfectly the boys performed the fusion dance and built his expectations off of a 'not fully powered' Gotenks.
Fusion does scale linearly. There is no evidence to suggest it doesn't. This argument is a desperate cop-out to make the 'Base Post > Ssj Pre' theory work. It's both a numeric impossibility and a logical fallacy due to having no evidence to substantiate the claim.
P.S.
For the people who actually believe that fusion doesn't scale linearly, than you are creating a paradox and a big hole in your logic by believing Goku can sense the Metamoran individuals and their fused product and determine what Gotenks Ssj Pre will be.
Your logic collapses in on itself.
Argument:
Piccolo didn't doubt Gotenks' when he said he could finish Boo.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo didn't have the time to contradict Gotenks' whom flew off almost immediately. Piccolo resorts to trying to stop him because of the amount of time they have left and they would ultimately defuse and then Earth's only hope would be killed off. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that's the same as Piccolo not doubting their strength. He never had the time to vocalize his doubts and even with what he was able to say to himself, the safety of the individuals was clearly more paramount.
Argument: Piccolo let them sleep after seeing Gotenks Super Saiyan, this means he thinks the fusion is strong enough.
Counter-Argument: Piccolo let the boys sleep prior to even merging successfully for the first time, and they only had 1 day left to learn the fusion. This argument is bullshit.
Argument: How can Gotenks be weaker than Boo as a Super Saiyan?
Counter-Argument: After Kibito & Kaioshin merged with the Potara, their strength wasn't even considered on par with Vegeta Ssj2; yet Kaioshin alone was considered a dimension above Piccolo, and because the Potara has greater affect than the Metamoran fusion, this makes it a mathematical impossibility for Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT to actually surpass Fat Boo.
a) Gotenks Base Pre-RoSaT survived Majin Boo, Vegeta didn't; therefore he has to be around Super Saiyan 2 power.
Counter-Argument
There are countless scenarios where a weaker fighter survives a stronger fighter, but it doesn't mean they are stronger than anybody else. Some examples include Hercule fighting Perfect Cell & Kid Boo. Vegeta in his Ssj2 & Base form being mercilessly assaulted by Kid Boo -who is not known to hold back power. Kaioshin surviving Boo. Surviving a fight doesn't account for anything.
Argument
b) Gotenks says Gotenks' will defeat Majin Boo and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
Goku made the statement prior to being able to accurately gauge the strength of the boys. Therefore it's not an accurate power statement and is contradicted when he isn't even certain if what they're showing them is their full power.
Argument
c) Goku didn't think they needed the RoSaT
Counter-Argument
Actually, within the context of the statement Goku only says 'no' to using it for the sole purpose of speeding up the time it will take to learn the fusion. He later says 'they might need it later'. This also contradicts the notion that Gotenks' strength wasn't contradicted and debunks the notion that he didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Argument
d) Goku isn't an idiot, he wouldn't risk the entire Universe unless he was certain the boys could win.
Counter-Argument
Gotenks was remarked as being able to win 'one way or another', this doesn't have to include battle power as Goku has seen the fusion before and knows it likely yields some weird powers.
Additionally, Piccolo says the same thing to Gotenks about both Boo's: that he needs to 'train and train' in preparation for both fights. The statement isn't contradicted in either situation, therefore it's true until contradicted.
Also, Goku figured they would learn to fuse quickly, which would give them the remainder of the time to focus on training, and if need be, they could use the RoSaT. So no, Goku isn't an idiot, but it doesn't mean Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT would be strong enough to defeat Majin Boo without the benefits of training, because Goku wasn't certain if he would be or not.
Argument
e) Piccolo only question Gotenks' speed, not his power.
Counter-Argument
My analysis in another topic proves that speed doesn't correlate with strength in linear progression. Hence why Piccolo was testing him. Gotenks was foolish enough to believe so, but this is completely false. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku on Namek, but he was much slower. Because speed & strength can differ so greatly from one another, it makes it impossible to judge a characters power based solely on speed alone.
Argument
f) Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than him and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
The entire point of telling Majin Boo that was buy time for the boys to learn the fusion. It wasn't meant to be taken as an actual fact. Then there is this:
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife).
Argument:
g) Goku is stupid and a serial killer because he let 10% of the Earth die.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo was willing to let Super Boo annihilate the entire population (7 Billion people, or the remaining 90%) for the sole purpose of giving Gotenks a chance to close the gap.
Goku knows they still have the Dragon Balls and previously told Gohan during the Cell Games not to worry about whatever damage he does because it can all be reversed with the Dragon Balls.
After Kid Boo appeared, Goku was teleported to the World Of The Kais and he says:
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Goku is willing to make the sacrifice to give Gotenks a chance to succeed, because all the damage can later be undone.
Argument:
Goku didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Counter-Argument:
Actually, if you look at the context of the statement:
Goku wasn't saying that the boys didn't need the RoSaT because the fusion on it's own would be strong enough to defeat Boo, he was neglecting in using it as a means for the boys to learn the Metamoran quicker, which would waste time. He than blatantly says 'They might NEED IT LATER' because they are going to learn to fuse quickly.
So finally, Goku isn't 100% certain if Gotenks, even as a Super Saiyan, would become strong enough. The RoSaT was a back-up plan just in case he wasn't. This also debunks pretty much all the Gotenks Pre-RoSaT arguments.
Argument
a) Fusion doesn't scale linearly.
Counter-Argument
This particular argument uses the quote from Piccolo that says 'even if you get just a little stronger, it will be more effective when you perform fusion'. All this means is 'Goten + 1 / Trunks + 1 = Gotenks +n 2'.
Therefore 'Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre' is hereby disproven. Additionally, Piccolo started to build hope based off how perfectly the boys performed the fusion dance and built his expectations off of a 'not fully powered' Gotenks.
Fusion does scale linearly. There is no evidence to suggest it doesn't. This argument is a desperate cop-out to make the 'Base Post > Ssj Pre' theory work. It's both a numeric impossibility and a logical fallacy due to having no evidence to substantiate the claim.
P.S.
For the people who actually believe that fusion doesn't scale linearly, than you are creating a paradox and a big hole in your logic by believing Goku can sense the Metamoran individuals and their fused product and determine what Gotenks Ssj Pre will be.
Your logic collapses in on itself.
Argument:
Piccolo didn't doubt Gotenks' when he said he could finish Boo.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo didn't have the time to contradict Gotenks' whom flew off almost immediately. Piccolo resorts to trying to stop him because of the amount of time they have left and they would ultimately defuse and then Earth's only hope would be killed off. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that's the same as Piccolo not doubting their strength. He never had the time to vocalize his doubts and even with what he was able to say to himself, the safety of the individuals was clearly more paramount.
Argument: Piccolo let them sleep after seeing Gotenks Super Saiyan, this means he thinks the fusion is strong enough.
Counter-Argument: Piccolo let the boys sleep prior to even merging successfully for the first time, and they only had 1 day left to learn the fusion. This argument is bullshit.
Argument: How can Gotenks be weaker than Boo as a Super Saiyan?
Counter-Argument: After Kibito & Kaioshin merged with the Potara, their strength wasn't even considered on par with Vegeta Ssj2; yet Kaioshin alone was considered a dimension above Piccolo, and because the Potara has greater affect than the Metamoran fusion, this makes it a mathematical impossibility for Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT to actually surpass Fat Boo.
Goku laments about how he left the fate of the world up to the boys to figure out a way to defeating Majin Boo 'one way or another'. He actually states this twice. Once before fighting Kid Boo and once while speaking to Piccolo. These are important keywords because this type of victory completely derives away from battle power being the only factor. Simultaneously, this also means Goku was factoring in other things than just Gotenks being powerful.
A usual argument people bring up is how Goku says fusion will be enough. However, he based most of these statements on the battle power of the product of the sum before he even witnessed what they were truly capable of, he was even uncertain if they did power-up to their full abilities; coincidentally, this also means that Goku wasn't making an accurate estimate to begin with. And no, the World Martial Arts Tournament cannot be used to suggest he actually got a gauge on their abilities then because: a) They never used Chi during their fight & b) Standing Ssjs is much different than fully powered ones.
Additionally, fusion has to scale linearly for Goku to make any sort of prediction. And because this HAS to be factual for Goku's prediction to be accurate, than Goku's statement collapse in on themselves because he made almost all of these statements before even seeing what the boys could do. The only statement that came after is the one he made towards Chi-Chi, but this was obviously made to comfort her, simply look at the art-work.
It's a mathematical and logical impossibility if it doesn't scale linearly and actually a cop-out for someone who tries to argue that it doesn't.
Gotenks makes the wrong decision on several scenarios -by believing he's superior to Fat Boo, but this is contradicted in one scenario and never confirmed in the other. Chi takes a fundamental amount of training to control, especially at the levels of Goku SSj3, suddenly, Gotenks is going to be able to miraculously control his Chi enough to surpass Goku SSj3? Not likely. Is he going to be able to control his new abilities having just been introduced to them while simultaneously controlling SSj3 tier power -which is inherently new as well, ABSOLUTELY not.
Additionally, he wrongly believed that just because he was fast, that also means he's strong, Toriyama's interview about Chi control debunks this and actually shows quite the opposite about how much control Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT actually has over his own Chi control; none, because he doesn't understand the fundamental principals of it yet.
Does Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT HAVE to be stronger than Goku SSj3 or even Fat Boo? Absolutely not.
A usual argument people bring up is how Goku says fusion will be enough. However, he based most of these statements on the battle power of the product of the sum before he even witnessed what they were truly capable of, he was even uncertain if they did power-up to their full abilities; coincidentally, this also means that Goku wasn't making an accurate estimate to begin with. And no, the World Martial Arts Tournament cannot be used to suggest he actually got a gauge on their abilities then because: a) They never used Chi during their fight & b) Standing Ssjs is much different than fully powered ones.
Additionally, fusion has to scale linearly for Goku to make any sort of prediction. And because this HAS to be factual for Goku's prediction to be accurate, than Goku's statement collapse in on themselves because he made almost all of these statements before even seeing what the boys could do. The only statement that came after is the one he made towards Chi-Chi, but this was obviously made to comfort her, simply look at the art-work.
It's a mathematical and logical impossibility if it doesn't scale linearly and actually a cop-out for someone who tries to argue that it doesn't.
Gotenks makes the wrong decision on several scenarios -by believing he's superior to Fat Boo, but this is contradicted in one scenario and never confirmed in the other. Chi takes a fundamental amount of training to control, especially at the levels of Goku SSj3, suddenly, Gotenks is going to be able to miraculously control his Chi enough to surpass Goku SSj3? Not likely. Is he going to be able to control his new abilities having just been introduced to them while simultaneously controlling SSj3 tier power -which is inherently new as well, ABSOLUTELY not.
Additionally, he wrongly believed that just because he was fast, that also means he's strong, Toriyama's interview about Chi control debunks this and actually shows quite the opposite about how much control Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT actually has over his own Chi control; none, because he doesn't understand the fundamental principals of it yet.
Does Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT HAVE to be stronger than Goku SSj3 or even Fat Boo? Absolutely not.
