Tao Pai Pai, Is he a True Gangster?

[p123]

Tao comes in like a bat outta hell whooping ass in extreme fashion. We see him absolutely pwn Bora, General Blue and Goku. All while holding back some! He is even rivaling Post Korin Goku, putting up a better fight with Goku than Goku did with Cell. It might not have lasted long, but Tao showed some impressive feats. Then he comes back as a Cyborg God more or less. If it wasn't for the timeline, Cyborg Tao would have been nearly a Piccolo Daimao level threat. He's the first quality villain we see in Dragonball and he was a ruthless mofo.

Here's what I think.

Tao Pai Pai (Initial) vs Goku

This fight feels somewhat similar to Jackie Chun vs Yamcha. Jackie was effortlessly dodging Yamcha, and seems to be doing it a bit more effortlessly than Tao was. Yet Jackie brought up Yamcha's inefficiency in his movements as well. Yamcha's Wolf Fang Fist woke up Jackie, but Jackie was still able to easily avoid. Much the same with Tao, Goku's Kamehameha made Tao get serious for a second and block as hard as possible, but still, no damage to himself, only his clothes.

Are these gaps similar?

What is the relation from Goku's Kamehameha to Tao Pai Pai? Does that style of blocking drastically differentiate how he could have handled it? If he blocked it like Raditz did to Goku's KHH with one hand, what would happen? Or Freeza's hand with KKx20 Goku's KHH? If he punched it, how would it compare to Nappa punching Gohan's blast back? And so on. We need to rank the relation of ki blast to the user to understand how ki blasts work more. Still a grey area for many debaters.

Explain Tao Pai Pais' Dodonpa vs Goku Post Korin. It shoots Goku back, but it only burns his hands a little. How strong is Dodonpa compared to Kamehameha? To Goku?

And finally, how strong do we make of Cyborg Tao? Krillen and Yamcha seem to at least respect his power, clearly he's nothing to Tien, but Cyborg Tao's power is indeed monstrous. If Krillen and Yamcha are rivaling Piccolo Daimao, then Cyborg Tao is somewhat rivaling them. Incredible powerup for someone only around Post Korin's level. He goes from Post Korin Goku to freaking Piccolo Daimao with cybernetics. Unreal. Imagine if Freeza got this kind of upgrade.

Anyway, just some things that were on my mind regarding the series. Discuss.

 

[ahill1]

Goku blocking Tao's Dodonpa could case some issues with the fight, which doesn't suggest a gap much bigger than 90%. Unless we assume that Dodonpa's multiplier < KMHMH's multiplier, dunno. I'd say post karin Goku is at least at the same level of Dodonpa, forcing its multiplier to be no more than 1.1x

I also would say initial Tao >> Goku pre Karin KMHMH. Like you said, Tao dodging Goku kinda remembered initial Jackie vs Yamcha, which should be like 60% or so. Initial KMHMH shouldn't be all that much.

 

[p123]

The Dodonpa forcefully shot Goku back and burned his hands. Why do you take issue with it being superior to Goku, which it likely is, hell has to be to make any sort of amplification work?

Yamcha's Wolf Fang Fist has to be at least a 1.1x boost. Yamcha implies that Kamehameha is a step above the new and improved Wolf Fang Fist.

Super Kamehameha is unable to truly damage a fully blocking Piccolo as well. Yet Vegeta is able to slice through a Cell who is way stronger.

Ki blasts are hard to figure out.

 

[ahill1]

Goku can still block it though, letting Tao chapfallen. I don't see why I would have to go with Dodonpa > Goku considering it.

Maybe the KMHMH was more amplified by the 22nd Budokai.

 

[ahill1]

I remember when I was trying to do a Dragon Ball list I had some issues with initial Tao Pai Pai compared to the Uranai Baba's fighters.

 

[p123]

How much did Tao power up when he got serious? Did Goku adjust his level as well or no? And that brings up the other issue. What denotes a one shot gap here?

What's the gaps suggested one shot gaps here?

1) Jackie Chun vs Krillen
2) Krillen vs General Blue
3) Goku vs General Blue
4) Goku vs Mummy
5) Goku vs Akkuman?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

1. This fight feels somewhat similar to Jackie Chun vs Yamcha. Jackie was effortlessly dodging Yamcha, and seems to be doing it a bit more effortlessly than Tao was. Yet Jackie brought up Yamcha's inefficiency in his movements as well. Yamcha's Wolf Fang Fist woke up Jackie, but Jackie was still able to easily avoid. Much the same with Tao, Goku's Kamehameha made Tao get serious for a second and block as hard as possible, but still, no damage to himself, only his clothes. Are these gaps similar?

2. Explain Tao Pai Pais' Dodonpa vs Goku Post Korin. It shoots Goku back, but it only burns his hands a little. How strong is Dodonpa compared to Kamehameha? To Goku?

3. And finally, how strong do we make of Cyborg Tao? Krillin and Yamcha seem to at least respect his power, clearly he's nothing to Tien, but Cyborg Tao's power is indeed monstrous. If Krillin and Yamcha are rivaling Piccolo Daimao, then Cyborg Tao is somewhat rivaling them. Incredible powerup for someone only around Post Korin's level. He goes from Post Korin Goku to freaking Piccolo Daimao with cybernetics. Unreal. Imagine if Freeza got this kind of upgrade.

1. To decide the gap between Pre-Post Water Goku, you need to use Baba saga fights. Mummy (who's essentially Pre Water Goku) gets
one shotted by Post Water Goku, the same way as Recoome (1.5x gap). Devil is confident to beat that power, so he's about 1.65x Pre
Water Goku, yet he gets one shotted as well. All in all, i think Post Water Goku is about 2.5x his Pre Water self.

2. Goku has a small advantage over Tao, yet he can hold off his beam. I think the multiplier is 1.1x-1.125x. Dodonpa is not a really
powerful move, it's just a handy move for quick executions of the weaklings (like Freeza's death beam).

3. Krillin/Yamcha do not rival King Piccolo. Tenshinhan, who was only moderately stronger than Daimaio, had a clear gap over them.
In my books, Ten has 1.5x a gap over Tao and Young Piccolo is 2x stronger than Old Piccolo. That means Cyborg Tao wrecks Old and
gets wrecked by Young.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

The Dodonpa forcefully shot Goku back and burned his hands. Why do you take issue with it being superior to Goku, which it likely is, hell has to be to make any sort of amplification work?

Yamcha's Wolf Fang Fist has to be at least a 1.1x boost. Yamcha implies that Kamehameha is a step above the new and improved Wolf Fang Fist.

Super Kamehameha is unable to truly damage a fully blocking Piccolo as well. Yet Vegeta is able to slice through a Cell who is way stronger.

Ki blasts are hard to figure out.

WFF- 1.1x
WFF 2- 1.2x
KHH- 1.33x
Super KHH- 1.5x
Final Flash- Lol, dunno, like 5x, as strong as needed to destroy Cell

 

[ahill1]

Well we know Tao initial >>> Goku pre Karin, probably a 66% gap or so. We can have a pretty decent grasp on how much Goku powered up training under karin, going with Goku (full power) >= Son Gohan >>> Akkuman ~ Goku (vs Mummy) >>> Mummy.

Goku does seem to be using some level of effort while kicking initial Tao, who isn't all that injured. Probably less than a 66% gap between FP Goku and initial Tao imo, which puts intial Tao Pai Pai at like the level Goku was using to tool Akkuman imo.

Like I said I remember to have some issues fitting initial Tao. Can't remember what exactly though.

 

[ahill1]

Oh yeah now I see the issue. If initial Tao is only 1.5x pre Karin Goku, then he would end up more or less as strong as the Goku who one shotted Mummy/Akkuman, which does seem a little too far away from post Karin Goku at full power. That was the issue I was having.

 

[p123]

Very good stuff Withheld. Glad to see the two of you in here, you are the only two who get into the more difficult issues. Witheld I like the concept of your chain.

Mummy = Pre Training Goku

That does make a lot of sense, Mummy probably can defeat Goku 21st and Pre Training Goku is asked if he has powered up.

It appears the Reecome vs Goku gap is a bit higher than that according to Ginyu. 1.6x or so.

Does every one shot gap have to be in that 1.5x range in your opinion?

I'm ok with that over here for Tao Pai Pai.

Guys check out my power level list, this is the stuff I'm working on now.

Withheld, what's your opinion on Krillen vs Jackie Chun, was he witholding power?

Also show me your numbers for Yamcha, WFF, krillen vs Jackie initial

 

[ahill1]

Wow, I checked your list and you have initial Tao Pai Pai at Goku (initially vs Akkuman), exactly where I said I'd like to have him. I disagree with some of your gaps, but overall good job, as always.

I see you nerfed a bit the gaps between Full Power Goku and Akkuman and Initial Goku and Mummy, probably in order to better fit initial Tao Pai Pai right?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Very good stuff Withheld. Glad to see the two of you in here, you are the only two who get into the more difficult issues. Witheld I like the concept of your chain.

Mummy = Pre Training Goku

That does make a lot of sense, Mummy probably can defeat Goku 21st and Pre Training Goku is asked if he has powered up.

It appears the Reecome vs Goku gap is a bit higher than that according to Ginyu. 1.6x or so.

Does every one shot gap have to be in that 1.5x range in your opinion?

I'm ok with that over here for Tao Pai Pai.

Guys check out my power level list, this is the stuff I'm working on now.

Withheld, what's your opinion on Krillin vs Jackie Chun, was he witholding power?

Also show me your numbers for Yamcha, WFF, Krillin vs Jackie initial

For your questions, look at my Early DB list

http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5442

 

[p123]

@ahill

Well that's what I'm debating on right now. How big that one shot gap needs to be.

Which is why I bring up Krillen vs General Blue and Goku vs General Blue. Figuring out those are the key. Ahill, any fights that that super speed punch remind you of for Krillen vs Blue?

Which gaps do you disagree with ?



@withheld

How can Hercule be 3x an average human when he has to use max effort to fight off the gun men? The gun men looks like your regular old tough guy. You do realize that a 3x gap would result in insane tanking right? I could see Hercule tanking a little girl, but not a grown man. Not at all. He's a normal human as stated by AT.


Is Krillen KOing the Temple Bully indicative of less than a 2x gap. That one punch showcases Krillen's improvement more than anything else. You do a 3x gap between regular humans and Hercule (no evidence) and when you finally get some evidence for a major gap you don't use it.

You do realize that Initial Krillen vs Jackie is showcasing a still vastly superior Jackie Chun right? He doesn't increase his power, he finally goes on the offensive.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

@withheld

How can Hercule be 3x an average human when he has to use max effort to fight off the gun men? The gun men looks like your regular old tough guy. You do realize that a 3x gap would result in insane tanking right? I could see Hercule tanking a little girl, but not a grown man. Not at all. He's a normal human as stated by AT.


Is Krillin KOing the Temple Bully indicative of less than a 2x gap. That one punch showcases Krillin's improvement more than anything else. You do a 3x gap between regular humans and Hercule (no evidence) and when you finally get some evidence for a major gap you don't use it.

You do realize that Initial Krillin vs Jackie is showcasing a still vastly superior Jackie Chun right? He doesn't increase his power, he finally goes on the offensive.

Conventionally...
For the Normal Humen-BODB Goku range, i use real life rules, so that i have enough space to fit all levels of real life human
strength, real life carnivores, Dino Bird, Bear Thief etc
After BODB Goku, i use the gaps implied in the series battles

 

[p123]

I disagree with that approach. But that's why I don't go by scouter numbers. They just don't work. There is no way Hercule is 3x an average human, no matter what your logic is, it's wrong.

Let's try to further the discussion here, I don't need to bash your shitty list anymore than I already have.

Now...

Give me what I want. Discussion on the subjects I've brought up. No one talks about these topics. Hard to bounce ideas off of a ghost. So I am Dr. House and you are one of my doctor's, give me discussion. Immediately. Haha

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I don't think it's illogical to say that, in ki battles, the gaps work differently than in real life tier. I mean, in a real life fight,
i don't see anyone with a 1.33x gap speedblitz the foe like Goku did to Vegeta.
I'm waiting for your other questions.

 

[p123]

That's only because you misunderstand the entire premise behind ki power. A 1.33 gap on the average human would basically make Mike Tyson or even better. Bruce Lee and Mike Tyson put together in Brock Lesnar's body. That's what you don't understand.

 

[SSJ2]

He's on par with black thugs from Chicago.