The Answer Finally Revealed

[Cell]

Do you think SSJ Gotenks [pre RoSaT] ended up weaker than Goku's predictions? Goku was basing it off probably on how strong the Metamors got after fusing, and they most likely hadn't too much distractions as Gotenks SSJ pre RoSaT.

He may have considered Goten and Trunks equals and been basing his predictions off of what they displayed at the Budokai. -shrug-

Wow, thanks for fiding a formula for my 50x SSJ multiplier list (I assume it's that since it's the more recent one).

Yea, that was the one I was glancing at. No worries... was just having a little play with it.

The formula* I've came up with was for my 10x SSJ multiplier list** that I finished today (did some 10x lists before, but today I changed my Goten and Kid Trunks' placement).

*Formula =
2A x 180
2.3 ^ D


**Goten and Kid Trunks' power levels on my 10x SSJ list

Goten [pre RoSaT] 330,000,000
~SSJ 3,300,000,000
Kid Trunks [pre RoSaT] 340,000,000
~SSJ 3,400,000,000

Applying in the formula we'd have:

base Gotenks ~ 50,000,000,000 [would like to have him a bit lower, but if he ends up a good amount < Fat Boo, then it's all fine]
SSJ Gotenks ~ 100,000,000,000 [I have Goku SSJ3 at 90 billions, then 100 billions works just fine]


Post RoSaT, I have to bump up Goten and Trunks to 500,000,000 [a rather big increase, but still nothing compared to Gotenks' increase] and I manage to have base Gotenks around 180 billions, which is a whooping 1.8x gap compared to his pre RoSaT SSJ self.

330-500 isn't that much different from your previous list. From 1.4x to 1.5x'ish. And even if you pulled it back to that same 1.4, you'd still end up with [Post-RoSaT] Gotenks around 165 billion.

 

[ahill1]

He may have considered Goten and Trunks equals and been basing his predictions off of what they displayed at the Budokai. -shrug-

I feel that's an important point to consider in the formula. If the Metamors didn't have any distractions then Goku would be thinking base Gotenks would already be plenty for Fat Boo, which doesn't seem right. Any number of distractions less than three in the Metamors fusion would led Goku to think Gotenks would end up more powerful than he is.

Goku probably doesn't know about these distractions things, I think he is just basing Gotenks' strength on how much of a boost those Metamors couple got.

The best scenario would be if we assume the Metamors also had three distractions, then making pre RoSaT Gotenks exactly equal to Goku's expectations and plenty for Fat Boo. BUT... that does clash with Goku thinking Gogeta will be plenty for Super Boo, who shouldn't be too much above three distractions Gotenks in Goku's estimations... he actually should be more than that, of course.

 

[Cell]

He may have considered Goten and Trunks equals and been basing his predictions off of what they displayed at the Budokai. -shrug-

I feel that's an important point to consider in the formula. If the Metamors didn't have any distractions then Goku would be thinking base Gotenks would already be plenty for Fat Boo, which doesn't seem right. Any number of distractions less than three in the Metamors fusion would led Goku to think Gotenks would end up more powerful than he is.

Goku probably doesn't know about these distractions things, I think he is just basing Gotenks' strength on how much of a boost those Metamors couple got.

The best scenario would be if we assume the Metamors also had three distractions, then making pre RoSaT Gotenks exactly equal to Goku's expectations and plenty for Fat Boo. BUT... that does clash with Goku thinking Gogeta will be plenty for Super Boo, who shouldn't be too much above three distractions Gotenks in Goku's estimations... he actually should be more than that, of course.

I suppose my preferred explanation would be that Goku understood the distractions concept and was basing his initial predictions on a fusion of SSJ Goten and Trunks (based on what they showed at the Budokai), who he assumed were basically equals. This allows you to lower the resulting SSJ Gotenks a bit but still keep it on SSJ3 Goku+ levels.

Then they showed their true max power and he discovered Trunks was a little ahead of Goten... but the power increase covered the additional distraction and would still get them by.

Obviously, Goku's not doing all this math in his head but he had ballpark figures.

No idea how many examples of fusion he was shown but it was enough to learn the complicated dance sequence and to confidently predict the results (confidently enough to risk the planet on).

 

[KyuubiAhri]

Using Physics and "rocket science" to discuss and explain Db.

 

[Cell]

Using Physics and "rocket science" to discuss and explain Db.

The less forethought that goes into it, the greater the struggle to explain it.

Plus... this series has captivated many of us for large portions of our lives... does it deserve any less than our best efforts?

 

[ahill1]

I tried it on your numbers as they are... and found it a pretty funny coincidence that SSJ Gokhan ends up equal to Buutenks. Could always justify that SSJ was all that fusion would get as Gohan had his SSJ transformations overwritten... I know Kaboom goes with something like that.

Going back into this, how did you end up with SSJ Gokhan = Bootenks? Even Gogeta couldn't be that strong according to my numbers and Gogeta ought to be > Gokhan due to less distractions (Goku has to suppress down to Gohan's level).

 

[ahill1]

Unless you think Goku fused as SSJ3 and Gohan suppressed down to SSJ3 Goku's level?

 

[p123]

So basically Gotenks fusion didn't go perfectly and in the 6 days they got it down. That's an old theory.

 

[Cell]

I tried it on your numbers as they are... and found it a pretty funny coincidence that SSJ Gokhan ends up equal to Buutenks. Could always justify that SSJ was all that fusion would get as Gohan had his SSJ transformations overwritten... I know Kaboom goes with something like that.

Going back into this, how did you end up with SSJ Gokhan = Bootenks? Even Gogeta couldn't be that strong according to my numbers and Gogeta ought to be > Gokhan due to less distractions (Goku has to suppress down to Gohan's level).

Unless you think Goku fused as SSJ3 and Gohan suppressed down to SSJ3 Goku's level?

I had:
2 x 90,000,000,000 x 1100
4.1 ^ 1

As in... Goku being the 90 bill, and the "1" being Gohan suppressing.
We end up with: ~48,000,000,000,000
That x50: ~2,400,000,000,000,000
...which is what you have Buutenks at on that list.

So basically Gotenks fusion didn't go perfectly and in the 6 days they got it down. That's an old theory.

Kind of... except this 'version' of that allows Gogeta to be strong without all the 'practice' nonsense.

And yea, it's an old theory... that doesn't make it any less relevant. It's the one I've followed for years which is why I brought it up in a topic claiming to have finally revealed the answer as if it was a complete mystery all this time.

I'm not saying it's the answer. It works for me and my beliefs... and simply seems like a better fit than your suggestion of the pair learning SSJ2.

 

[p123]

Why? The boys having Ssj2 is a quick easy fix.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

The problem is that both of them are surprised they discovered a level beyond Super Saiyan.

Like, they're kids and all, but they know by now that merging as Super Saiyans would create Super Saiyan Gotenks.

Wouldn't it be logical to assume they would assume merging as Super Saiyan 2's would create Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks?

Both kids were really shocked that they could discover an additional form in Fusion. That alone tells me that it's something that they just happened to reach as they trained. The kids had just defused right after discovering Super Saiyan 3.

 

[p123]

They shouldn't be surprised. They saw Goku's breakdown of Super Saiyan power.

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah, I never got that tbh. Really bad writing.

 

[Cell]

@P How does the max power fusion thing work for Goku/Gohan? If you go by that, wouldn't Gokhan be ridiculously beyond Buutenks?

You also mention using smaller SSJ's for fusions... which I can't help but be against considering absolutely nothing was mentioned or suggested in that manner. Vegetto being stronger than expected (although likely just a taunt) would also be counteractive to that.


As for Goten and Trunks commenting on a level beyond SSJ... could they have been referring to Goku's display? Kind of congratulating themselves like "Hah, who knew there was a level beyond SSJ" <pats on backs>?

 

[SSJ2]

Maybe.. but they don't even know what the form is called when Goku announced it. Almost seems as if they forgot it entirely... like how Tenshinhan seemed to forget SSjin after seeing Yardrat Goku. Just weird writing imo.

 

[p123]

Well Base Gotenks suggested powers definitely suggests Super Saiyan is different for them.

 

[Cell]

Well Base Gotenks suggested powers definitely suggests Super Saiyan is different for them.

How so? The small'ish difference between [Pre-RoSaT] Gotenks and [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I don't think they're necessarily referring to Goku's display.

They seem to be surprised that they found a level beyond Super Saiyan in Fusion:

Trunks: “Haah…haah…Hey…! We did it!”
Goten: “Y-yeah! Haah, haah…Amazing! To think that there’s something above Super Saiyan…!”
Trunks: “We can definitely win like this…! Hihihi…Everyone will flip their lids…!”

That's probably the most reasonable explanation for it. With that, I can't see them attaining Super Saiyan 2 separately.

 

[p123]

Yep.

 

[ahill1]

I had:
2 x 90,000,000,000 x 1100
4.1 ^ 1

As in... Goku being the 90 bill, and the "1" being Gohan suppressing.
We end up with: ~48,000,000,000,000
That x50: ~2,400,000,000,000,000
...which is what you have Buutenks at on that list.

But 90,000,000,000 is for Goku SSJ, therefore the number of distractions would be 2 (Gohan suppressing and Goku keeping SSJ).

Besides, why do you think Goku would be SSJ (and Gohan suppressing down to that level) instead of being SSJ2 or SSJ3? Since you think Gokhan would start as base, then Goku being a SSJ3 or even as SSJ2 would provide better results.

And why you think if Goku fused as SSJ and Gohan with his Ultimate state then the fusion would end up as just base instead of SSJ?