The Daizenshuu's explanation of the Cell timelines SUCKS

[freezamite]

So, we had a nice discussion about the TL interpretation of the "oficial" Daizenshuu guides and how it was an absolute nonsense all on itself, it's just that it wasn't on the correct thread:

Why is this explanation on the Cell saga impossible?

1. Cell only travels to the past because Trunks has already done so, and wants to do it a second time to tell everyone the future is safe.
This explanation needs a TL with Trunks and Cell on it, before Trunks ever defeats the android in his timeline.

2. It ends with 2 Cell games TL, and 2 future TL, which is far too few. With 3 retro-active distortions on the time (Trunks travelling, 1st Cell travelling, 2nd Cell travelling) 4 timelines is just not enough unless 1st or 2nd Cell's actions didn't have any impact, which it's obviously not the case if different outcomes happen (even if they're small like Cell games with Trunks vs Cell games with no Trunks).

Now, with Daizenshuu's fatal mistake pointed out, this is how Cell's Time Lines worked:

Chronologically speaking:
1st TL: No Cell here -> No Trunks here -> Goku & Z-Warriors beat Mecha & Cold in what's implied to be a hard fight -> Goku dies -> future androids kill nearly everyone -> Trunks goes to the past -> (2nd TL created here) Trunks fights Mecha & Cold with Goku & the other Z-Warriors -> Trunks goes back to the future and kills 17 and 18 -> Cell kills future Trunks and travels to past (creating 3rd TL) -> Bulma lives a lonely life

2nd TL: No Cell here -> Trunks appears and fights Mecha & Cold with Goku & the other Z-Warriors -> Trunks goes back to the future (to TL1) -> Unknown 2nd TL developments, but there's no future Cell in this TL and we have no more info about it.

3rd TL: Cell arrives (3rd TL is created by an event triggered by Cell's arrival, prior to Trunks arrival) -> Trunks arrives from TL1 and kills Mecha & Cold just before Goku arrives (TL4 implied to be created here) -> Trunks goes back to the future -> Trunks goes back to the past without killing -or having fought, it's not specified- 17 and 18 -> Cell games -> etc.

4th TL: Identical to TL1 until Trunks travels to the past for the first time -> Trunks comes back from TL3 -> Trunks goes to TL3 again without killing 17&18 -> Trunks comes from TL3 after the Cell games -> Trunks kills future 17 and 18 -> Trunks kills Cell

Now, a bit of an explanation on why I thin the TL went by this and why it's implied in the manga.

Firstly, changes in a TL in the DB universe are handled the following way:
A change is made in the past -> a whole new reality is created that reflects that change, but the original timeline doesn't disappear.

Now, since the TL we know most about is the 3rd one (which is already a consequence of multiple changes in the past), we have to concentrate on the HINTS the manga gives us, of moments that could've gone completely different if anything changed.

For example, the most obvious scenario in my opinion is Trunks's appearance in the 3rd timeline. As we learned later, Goku was just about to jump with the instant transmission when Trunks appeared. Had he acted just an instant later, we would've had a very different outcome on that fight.

We know one of the differences between TL1 and TL4 is that Trunks killed the androids after coming back from a past TL we don't see (TL2).
Trunks travelled to the past to observe Goku and the other z-warriors fight, and learn something that would allow him to defeat the androids (or even ask Goku to come help in the future), and the only thing that could change between 1st TL Trunks and 4th TL Trunks before the future events is the Mecha Freezer encounter.

So my explanation goes like this:
1. Trunks fought Mecha and Cold with Goku and the z-warriors in the 2nd TL, and he learned something that was useful to him (it could go from a technique, to better ideas on how to fight a stronger enemy, or even just some senzu beans).
My bet, the senzu beans: In Trunks future, senzu beans disappeared years before Trunks ever started to think about travelling in time.
In the 3rd TL, there's no fight against Mecha and Cold (both are killed instantly by Trunks) so no one used them, and Trunks left after leaving the message.
But in the 2nd TL, that fight was presumed to be brutal (we know that 1st TL fight against Mecha and Cold was, Son Goku was involved and Trunks gained that something that he needed to defeat future androids), so it's only logical to think that the senzu beans were used, and upon seeing them, Trunks asked them to fight the androids of his TL.

2. He used those senzus to kill the future androids. The future androids were weaker than the present ones, and Trunks could fight them fairly well:

Trunks: They weren't as outrageously strong as this... Even I could fight them fairly well...

So, if he could fight them fairly well, it meant that the biggest inconvenient would be the android's unlimited energy/stamina. Furthermore, it also meant that Trunks was stronger than Future 17 or Future 18 alone. Being able to fight at maximum strength, without caring about his stamina because of a couple of senzu beans, could allow future Trunks to kill the future androids and would explain why this changed between the Trunks that arrived at the 2nd TL and the one that arrived at the 3rd one.

3. Then, when he was going to come back to tell the others, he was killed by Cell instead, who travelled to 1 year before Trunk's first arrival (that's why the same 1st TL Trunks ends both in TL1 -future where he is killed- and TL4 -future where he kills Cell-).

4. Something Cell did made Trunks act an instant later than he did originally in the Mecha Freezer outcome. My assumption here is that it has to be something very trivial and indirect, like, considering that nearly all life had been extinguished in the Future TL, maybe a flock of birds originating from the forest where Cell arrived. Something uncommon in the future TL that would distract him that instant, triggered by Cell's arrival -he may have devoured some animals just after exiting the egg and while in his pre-1st form state-.

That explanation perfectly fits with all the data we have about the TL in the Cell saga, and unlike the Daizenshuu one, explains everything without leaving any empty gap.

I know we had some discussions on the other thread about the remote being used, I'll debunk them in the next message to not turn the OP of the thread into a discussion (I won't be doing it today though).

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Embrace my timeline theory, son.

 

[ahill1]

I don't agree with there being a CGs with Trunks absent, I know it doesn't make much sense. For me, it can go both ways, the timeline theories. I have gone pretty in depth in this, and these are my favorable explanations.


Theory 1


1ST TIMELINE -- This is Cell's timeline. In this timeline, Goku kills Freeza and Cold, dies later of a heart Virus, the androids are born later, kills all the Z warriors except Trunks and Son Gohan. This latter trains Trunks, but ends up dying as well later on. It's a parallel of future Trunks' timeline, who then after getting destroyed by the androids decides to go back in time, creating the 2nd timelime. Trunks then returns to this timeline with 'maybe' the shutdown controller, kills both androids, but then gets killed by Cell, who takes his time machine and creates both 3rd and 4th timelines.

2ND TIMELINE : this timeline is created by the Trunks from the 1st timeline. This is a parallel of the timeline we all know of -- the main timeline -- only that there's no Cell. Trunks sees how the androids were defying Cell, ends up discovering about the shutdown controller, kills the androids of this timeline with it. The Z warriors there apparently leave in peace there, there being no androids, and if they found out about the blueprints then they might have found out Cell as well in his larval state and killed him.

4TH TIMELINE : this is a timeline created by Cell from the 1st timeline. This TL parallels the 2nd one, but there's a Cell now. We are all aware of how thing went down here, with the Cell Games happening and Cell being killed.

3RD TIMELINE : this TL was also created by the Cell from the 1st timeline. The Cell from the 1st timeline travelled to a parallel of the 2nd timeline, so there'd be a Trunks killing Freeza like in the 2nd timeline as well. So, since the Trunks who killed Freeza had to have his own timeline, we automatically end up having this 3rd timeline, which serves as a parallel of the 1st timeline, with the difference that the Trunks from this timeline is now aware about Cell and is strong enough to kill him. This timeline appears in the manga and we are all aware of how the events unfold. In Super, this timeline is the 'ring' for the battle field envolving Black and Zamasu as well, but screw Super.


The original Trunks [from Cell's timeline/ from the 1st timeline] split the timeline in two. Cell travelled to the split timeline's past, not the original's. Because Trunks is required to travel to the altered timeline's future, Cell created two timelines: an alternate version of the split timeline (setting off the main story) and an alternate "original" timeline (home of the main story's Future Trunks).



Theory 2


It's also worth noting that I am now operating under the POV that Trunks was the one who killed Freeza and Cold in future Cell's timeline, not Goku[unlike in my 1st theory], based on this panel of the manga:

Cell is explaining how he got the Z warriors cells and it shows Freeza and Cold being killed by Trunks and in a similar fashion happened in the main timeline (I'll call the timeline we are more familiar with of "main" timeline and the 1st timeline [the one which originated everything else] of original timeline).

You could argue that AT just recycled the art in that panel, but I don't think such explanation is necessary. Whilst possible (considering AT recycled the panels of Vegeta being defeated on Earth as well as Piccolo being defeated in Cell's very explanation, as well as recycling some panels in the Boo saga, where we have even Kuririn making a joke and a Tori-bot appearing saying the editor shall not pay him), I don't think it's a need to think so in this case. Sure, it'd obviously raise the following question: "shouldn't Goku have survived then? Because Trunks would have obviously handed him the medicine."

But the truth is that Goku could have died from other ways besides the heart disease... it's very possible he was assassinated by the androids much like the other warriors. Sure, he wasn't killed by the androids in the main timeline, he survived and trained in the RoSaT... but you have to remember that there was an important being influencing what was happening in the main timeline: Cell! Yeah, that's right, the fact that Cell travelled to the main timeline hugely influenced its happenings, and it might have even changed the time where Goku got ill. It's possible that in future Cell's timeline, without there being a Cell there influencing what occurred, Goku also got ill not too long after Freeza's defeat... and then he was just fine when the androids appeared and would have, along the other Warriors, have confronted them... and then was killed by them.

What is interesting is that it would imply that Goku being saved by the medicine didn't help in saving the world... much like in future Trunks' timeline, the world was also doomed even when Goku got the medicine... and the direct responsible for the World's salvation (yeah, that's right, guys!) was Cell! Yeah, considering that in Cell's timeline where Goku got the medicine the World was still destroyed by them killing machines, the one altering what happened and then saving the World would be Cell also traveling to the time line and changing its happenings.

Then, that's what happens, from my POV (notice that I am not arguing that Freeza being killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline is a fact, and am perfectly well if you disagree, but I think it makes sense and many ppl consider this as well besides me):




History A1 - Son Goku returns to Earth and defeats Freeza and Cold. The Saiyajin then dies of a heart disease and the androids # 17 and # 18 dominate the events of A1, forcing Trunks A1 to travel to the past (pretty much a parallel of Mirai Trunks' timeline). The rest of the events are unknown.

Past Alternative A2 - Cell's timeline and the 1st timeline in my previous theory - Trunks of the future A1 defeats Freeza and Cold. However this is still not enough to prevent Son Goku's death, the androids sow the destruction, but due to unknown events they are somehow disabled (some people say it's due to a remote control). Pass 23 years from the incubation of Cell A2 and he starts his search for the androids. The A2 Trunks decides to travel to the past to change the events, however chooses 1 year before the arrival of Freeza and Cold for whatever reason. With no knowledge that there was a third android (Cell), the Trunks A2 is defeated easily by Cell A2 and this latter returns to the past to attain his perfect form. In this example the Cell A2 will travel to the past alternative B2 (explained below).

History B1 - Son Goku returns to Earth and defeats Freeza and cold. The Saiyajin dies of a heart disease and the androids #17 and #18 dominate the events until Trunks B1 travels to the past. With his return after the triumph in the past B2, the trunks B1 destroys the androids #17 and #18 and years later defeats the Cell B1, preventing him from returning to the past. In this line of events the Cell B1 is aware of the existence of Trunks B1, but the data itself is unknown.

Past alternative B2 - the Cell A2 travels to the past without being aware of the parameters of the journey and reaches this new past 1 year before the arrival of Trunks B1. Then, it happens the history portrayed in the manga, the Cell B2 is destroyed while still in larva, the Cell A2 reaches his perfect form and is defeated by Son Gohan in the Cell Games. The past alternative B2 is saved and Trunks B1 returns to his time and saves it as well.



Also, it's worth noting that, in the future Cell's timeline, Goku probably didn't die from a heart virus (considering that the future Trunks who came from yet another timeline should have obviously handed him the medicine)... he likely died because of the androids, so as far as the Trunks from Future Cell's timeline knows, Goku wouldn't be this game-changer as it was portrayed by Bulma in Future Trunks' timeline (as well as in the timeline of the future Trunks who went to future Cell's timeline)... so that could explain why that Trunks from Cell's timeline didn't try to travel to the past until he had already killed the androids -- yeah, in this theory I am considering the Trunks from Cell's timeline didn't travel to another timeline and would have done so for the 1st time when setting his time machine for it... So, the Trunks from Cell's timeline didn't travel to the past to hand Goku the medicine, as the Goku from his timeline dies in another way. So the Trunks from Cell's timeline obviously perceived Goku in a different way compared to the aforementioned Trunks... he didn't perceive Goku as this savior.


A chart made by a member of Kanzenshuu featuring this theory.

The author of such chart also doesn't think the Trunks from Cell's timeline travelled to another timeline and got there the blueprints to kill the androids... he also does think Trunks killed them on his own and would have travelled to the past for the 1st time until Cell killed him.

 

[freezamite]

I don't agree with there being a CGs with Trunks absent, I know it doesn't make much sense. For me, it can go both ways, the timeline theories. I have gone pretty in depth in this, and these are my favorable explanations.


Theory 1


1ST TIMELINE -- This is Cell's timeline. In this timeline, Goku kills Freeza and Cold, dies later of a heart Virus, the androids are born later, kills all the Z warriors except Trunks and Son Gohan. This latter trains Trunks, but ends up dying as well later on. It's a parallel of future Trunks' timeline, who then after getting destroyed by the androids decides to go back in time, creating the 2nd timelime. Trunks then returns to this timeline with 'maybe' the shutdown controller, kills both androids, but then gets killed by Cell, who takes his time machine and creates both 3rd and 4th timelines.

2ND TIMELINE : this timeline is created by the Trunks from the 1st timeline. This is a parallel of the timeline we all know of -- the main timeline -- only that there's no Cell. Trunks sees how the androids were defying Cell, ends up discovering about the shutdown controller, kills the androids of this timeline with it. The Z warriors there apparently leave in peace there, there being no androids, and if they found out about the blueprints then they might have found out Cell as well in his larval state and killed him.

4TH TIMELINE : this is a timeline created by Cell from the 1st timeline. This TL parallels the 2nd one, but there's a Cell now. We are all aware of how thing went down here, with the Cell Games happening and Cell being killed.

3RD TIMELINE : this TL was also created by the Cell from the 1st timeline. The Cell from the 1st timeline travelled to a parallel of the 2nd timeline, so there'd be a Trunks killing Freeza like in the 2nd timeline as well. So, since the Trunks who killed Freeza had to have his own timeline, we automatically end up having this 3rd timeline, which serves as a parallel of the 1st timeline, with the difference that the Trunks from this timeline is now aware about Cell and is strong enough to kill him. This timeline appears in the manga and we are all aware of how the events unfold. In Super, this timeline is the 'ring' for the battle field envolving Black and Zamasu as well, but screw Super.


The original Trunks [from Cell's timeline/ from the 1st timeline] split the timeline in two. Cell travelled to the split timeline's past, not the original's. Because Trunks is required to travel to the altered timeline's future, Cell created two timelines: an alternate version of the split timeline (setting off the main story) and an alternate "original" timeline (home of the main story's Future Trunks).

That theory is pretty similar to mine in the points where the TLs are created, the only difference being the way Trunks kills the androids with a remote.
My question is: why does Trunks start to search for the remote when in TL3 he wants to avoid any contact with the Androids until everyone is ready?
What could've happened in the fight against Mecha Freezer, for Trunks to suddenly change his strategy that much and wanting to risk awakening the androids sooner than in the original TL?

I think that's too big of a change with too difficult to explain events (yes, Trunks suspected that Guero could have a remote, but those suspicions didn't stop him from trying to prevent everyone from chasing Guero to his lab. He wanted to avoid any contact with the Androids there).

On the other hand, we know future Androids were a tad too much for Trunks due to their unlimited energy (Trunks saying he could fight them at their level implies that) and that in his TL there are no senzu beans.
If a Trunks that had to worry about his stamina could fight the future androids reasonably well, it's not hard to imagine that this same Trunks with a couple of senzu beans could kill them easily (no need to save power any more, so both androids could be handled at maximum strength all the time).

Theory 2


It's also worth noting that I am now operating under the POV that Trunks was the one who killed Freeza and Cold in future Cell's timeline, not Goku[unlike in my 1st theory], based on this panel of the manga:

Cell is explaining how he got the Z warriors cells and it shows Freeza and Cold being killed by Trunks and in a similar fashion happened in the main timeline (I'll call the timeline we are more familiar with of "main" timeline and the 1st timeline [the one which originated everything else] of original timeline).

You could argue that AT just recycled the art in that panel, but I don't think such explanation is necessary. Whilst possible (considering AT recycled the panels of Vegeta being defeated on Earth as well as Piccolo being defeated in Cell's very explanation, as well as recycling some panels in the Boo saga, where we have even Kuririn making a joke and a Tori-bot appearing saying the editor shall not pay him), I don't think it's a need to think so in this case. Sure, it'd obviously raise the following question: "shouldn't Goku have survived then? Because Trunks would have obviously handed him the medicine."

But the truth is that Goku could have died from other ways besides the heart disease... it's very possible he was assassinated by the androids much like the other warriors. Sure, he wasn't killed by the androids in the main timeline, he survived and trained in the RoSaT... but you have to remember that there was an important being influencing what was happening in the main timeline: Cell! Yeah, that's right, the fact that Cell travelled to the main timeline hugely influenced its happenings, and it might have even changed the time where Goku got ill. It's possible that in future Cell's timeline, without there being a Cell there influencing what occurred, Goku also got ill not too long after Freeza's defeat... and then he was just fine when the androids appeared and would have, along the other Warriors, have confronted them... and then was killed by them.

What is interesting is that it would imply that Goku being saved by the medicine didn't help in saving the world... much like in future Trunks' timeline, the world was also doomed even when Goku got the medicine... and the direct responsible for the World's salvation (yeah, that's right, guys!) was Cell! Yeah, considering that in Cell's timeline where Goku got the medicine the World was still destroyed by them killing machines, the one altering what happened and then saving the World would be Cell also traveling to the time line and changing its happenings.

Then, that's what happens, from my POV (notice that I am not arguing that Freeza being killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline is a fact, and am perfectly well if you disagree, but I think it makes sense and many ppl consider this as well besides me):

History A1 - Son Goku returns to Earth and defeats Freeza and Cold. The Saiyajin then dies of a heart disease and the androids # 17 and # 18 dominate the events of A1, forcing Trunks A1 to travel to the past (pretty much a parallel of Mirai Trunks' timeline). The rest of the events are unknown.

Past Alternative A2 - Cell's timeline and the 1st timeline in my previous theory - Trunks of the future A1 defeats Freeza and Cold. However this is still not enough to prevent Son Goku's death, the androids sow the destruction, but due to unknown events they are somehow disabled (some people say it's due to a remote control). Pass 23 years from the incubation of Cell A2 and he starts his search for the androids. The A2 Trunks decides to travel to the past to change the events, however chooses 1 year before the arrival of Freeza and Cold for whatever reason. With no knowledge that there was a third android (Cell), the Trunks A2 is defeated easily by Cell A2 and this latter returns to the past to attain his perfect form. In this example the Cell A2 will travel to the past alternative B2 (explained below).

History B1 - Son Goku returns to Earth and defeats Freeza and cold. The Saiyajin dies of a heart disease and the androids #17 and #18 dominate the events until Trunks B1 travels to the past. With his return after the triumph in the past B2, the trunks B1 destroys the androids #17 and #18 and years later defeats the Cell B1, preventing him from returning to the past. In this line of events the Cell B1 is aware of the existence of Trunks B1, but the data itself is unknown.

Past alternative B2 - the Cell A2 travels to the past without being aware of the parameters of the journey and reaches this new past 1 year before the arrival of Trunks B1. Then, it happens the history portrayed in the manga, the Cell B2 is destroyed while still in larva, the Cell A2 reaches his perfect form and is defeated by Son Gohan in the Cell Games. The past alternative B2 is saved and Trunks B1 returns to his time and saves it as well.



Also, it's worth noting that, in the future Cell's timeline, Goku probably didn't die from a heart virus (considering that the future Trunks who came from yet another timeline should have obviously handed him the medicine)... he likely died because of the androids, so as far as the Trunks from Future Cell's timeline knows, Goku wouldn't be this game-changer as it was portrayed by Bulma in Future Trunks' timeline (as well as in the timeline of the future Trunks who went to future Cell's timeline)... so that could explain why that Trunks from Cell's timeline didn't try to travel to the past until he had already killed the androids -- yeah, in this theory I am considering the Trunks from Cell's timeline didn't travel to another timeline and would have done so for the 1st time when setting his time machine for it... So, the Trunks from Cell's timeline didn't travel to the past to hand Goku the medicine, as the Goku from his timeline dies in another way. So the Trunks from Cell's timeline obviously perceived Goku in a different way compared to the aforementioned Trunks... he didn't perceive Goku as this savior.


A chart made by a member of Kanzenshuu featuring this theory.

The author of such chart also doesn't think the Trunks from Cell's timeline travelled to another timeline and got there the blueprints to kill the androids... he also does think Trunks killed them on his own and would have travelled to the past for the 1st time until Cell killed him.

That's also a plausible theory, much better than the daizenshuu one in that it at least doesn't contradict the manga anywhere in anything fundamental (at least that I see), but there's a couple of details I don't quite like.

The main problem I have with it is that the changes between timelines are too hard to explain compared to my theory of what happened. I mean, with my theory Cell's actions just needed to affect the 2nd timeline for an instant (the instant that would have made Goku appear before Trunks decided to act -Trunks wanted to avoid interfering in the TL anything more than what was strictly necessary-) and everything else would play as implied in the manga.
With this theory... you would have FPSSJ Trunks at TL2, because as a son of a SSJ (like the one in the 3rd TL) his SSJ would've been mastered since being born, and Cell could still kill him with a surprise attack since we know Trunks wasn't expecting him...

The only thing that doesn't match is that Cell identified Trunks instantly, and didn't mention anything about that Trunks being much weaker than it should have been. Furthermore, how did Cell's appearance have so much effects on everything when he practically arrived, fed himself a bit, and entered hibernation mode?

On the other hand, that panel about Mecha and Cold surely is problematic if we take it as Toriyama doing it on purpose (though considering those pages are all recycled drawings and that the bot not taking Trunk's cells could've been explained by Cell speaking about young-adolescent Trunks and not the one coming from the future), since we would need a Trunks doing the Mecha Freezer killing for it to make sense (though, it would be strange for the killing to be identical to the very detail and everything else changing so much).

This theory never even crossed my mind so I always took that panel as Toriyama recycling, but if we don't, you surely can accommodate it with your explanation while mine doesn't.

 

[ahill1]

That theory is pretty similar to mine in the points where the TLs are created, the only difference being the way Trunks kills the androids with a remote.
My question is: why does Trunks start to search for the remote when in TL3 he wants to avoid any contact with the Androids until everyone is ready?
What could've happened in the fight against Mecha Freezer, for Trunks to suddenly change his strategy that much and wanting to risk awakening the androids sooner than in the original TL?

I think that's too big of a change with too difficult to explain events (yes, Trunks suspected that Guero could have a remote, but those suspicions didn't stop him from trying to prevent everyone from chasing Guero to his lab. He wanted to avoid any contact with the Androids there).

On the other hand, we know future Androids were a tad too much for Trunks due to their unlimited energy (Trunks saying he could fight them at their level implies that) and that in his TL there are no senzu beans.
If a Trunks that had to worry about his stamina could fight the future androids reasonably well, it's not hard to imagine that this same Trunks with a couple of senzu beans could kill them easily (no need to save power any more, so both androids could be handled at maximum strength all the time).

Yeah, the only difference is the way Trunks kills the androids. It isn't specified in the original manga and when either way you are going to have to explain some things.

What do you mean? Trunks stated he didn't want to attack the androids and would rather wait so Goku would recover from his illness WHEN Vegeta was willing to fight them... that is, way before from what Trunks stated to Gohan (that Gero ought to have some emergency switch). At that time (when he said they should wait for Goku), he probably didn't even fathom the possibility of them being stopped by an emergency switch.

You have to remember that Gohan and Trunks were in their way to search for the time machine that Bulma found out, and then they learned about this monster and bla bla bla. Trunks new the androids were out there searching for Goku, so why would he think that searching for something in the lab would put him in contact with the androids? Doesn't add up.

He wished to stop everyone from chasing Gero's lab when the androids were still there... it has no relation to what they should be after the androids were already out there searching for Goku.


Only something I'd like to notice. This timeline in my theory 1 is pretty similar to the Cell's timeline in my 2nd theory, both of which doesn't have a Cell and yet Trunks gives Goku the medicine. I get that what happens in those timelines in my two theories are different things... in my 1st theory we have the Z warriors succeeding and killing the androids and in my 2nd timeline we have the Z warriors being all killed by the androids, except Gohan and Trunks. But this isn't exactly a contradiction, since they are two different theories, so it's to be expected to treat things that may have happened in one as a different thing from what may have happened in a timeline with the same variables... they aren't in the same theory, so this isn't exactly a contradiction.

That's also a plausible theory, much better than the daizenshuu one in that it at least doesn't contradict the manga anywhere in anything fundamental (at least that I see), but there's a couple of details I don't quite like.

Thanks.

Yeah, if we assume that kid Trunks (from the main timeline) had SSJ since a kid because of inheriting it from Vegeta (Vegeta had sex with Bulma when he already had SSJ), then the Trunks from Cell's timeline would logically also be a SSJ since a kid, a full power SSJ. May be also worth noting that the Mirai Trunks we all know of had already SSJ when he was 13, that is, at a pretty young age... what do you think about it?

But all in all yeah, Trunks killing Freeza and his father, handing Goku the medicine, advising everyone about the androids would logically mean they would go to the same training regimen as they did in the main timeline... unless maybe we assume the Cell in the main timeline had also an effect on this --shrugs--.

If we assume kid Trunks was a FPSSJ since this young age like in the main timeline, then it maybe stands a reason for why he could have killed the androids on his own without going to another timeline, but ended up getting killed by Cell due to a surprise attack (at least in future Trunks' timeline Cell seemed to be hidden and kind of setting up a surprise attack).

Furthermore, how did Cell's appearance have so much effects on everything when he practically arrived, fed himself a bit, and entered hibernation mode?

That goes into the implicit criteria. It seems just travelling to the past is going to change the timeline in a way people can't exactly predict. Both Trunks and Cell were changing the main timeline from my point of view, so if Goku died in Cell's timeline despite having apparently gotten the medicine (unless we assume Trunks didn't hand him that, which doesn't make sense), and yet in the main timeline he only died in the Cell Games, then Cell is the responsible for all that. Goku's illness might have showed up before (like in Trunks' timeline), then he took the medicine, fought with everyone against the androids and ended up getting killed... or maybe the time of the illness wasn't altered, and he ended up recovering but dying when fighting again with the other ones. But the thing we know is that Goku in Cell's timeline is dead and the androids sow destruction and were later destroyed by Trunks, unlike in the main timeline, so Cell ought to have changed things up.

What do you think about this chart that also takes into account Freeza being killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline?

Maybe you won't like it as much because Cell was killed by the androids 17 and 18 in Trunks' timeline, whereas he should have made himself strong enough to deal with them, right?

 

[KyuubiAhri]

So, we had a nice discussion about the TL interpretation of the "oficial" Daizenshuu guides and how it was an absolute nonsense all on itself, it's just that it wasn't on the correct thread:

Why is this explanation on the Cell saga impossible?

1. Cell only travels to the past because Trunks has already done so, and wants to do it a second time to tell everyone the future is safe.
This explanation needs a TL with Trunks and Cell on it, before Trunks ever defeats the android in his timeline.

2. It ends with 2 Cell games TL, and 2 future TL, which is far too few. With 3 retro-active distortions on the time (Trunks travelling, 1st Cell travelling, 2nd Cell travelling) 4 timelines is just not enough unless 1st or 2nd Cell's actions didn't have any impact, which it's obviously not the case if different outcomes happen (even if they're small like Cell games with Trunks vs Cell games with no Trunks).

Now, with Daizenshuu's fatal mistake pointed out, this is how Cell's Time Lines worked:

Chronologically speaking:
1st TL: No Cell here -> No Trunks here -> Goku & Z-Warriors beat Mecha & Cold in what's implied to be a hard fight -> Goku dies -> future androids kill nearly everyone -> Trunks goes to the past -> (2nd TL created here) Trunks fights Mecha & Cold with Goku & the other Z-Warriors -> Trunks goes back to the future and kills 17 and 18 -> Cell kills future Trunks and travels to past (creating 3rd TL) -> Bulma lives a lonely life

2nd TL: No Cell here -> Trunks appears and fights Mecha & Cold with Goku & the other Z-Warriors -> Trunks goes back to the future (to TL1) -> Unknown 2nd TL developments, but there's no future Cell in this TL and we have no more info about it.

3rd TL: Cell arrives (3rd TL is created by an event triggered by Cell's arrival, prior to Trunks arrival) -> Trunks arrives from TL1 and kills Mecha & Cold just before Goku arrives (TL4 implied to be created here) -> Trunks goes back to the future -> Trunks goes back to the past without killing -or having fought, it's not specified- 17 and 18 -> Cell games -> etc.

4th TL: Identical to TL1 until Trunks travels to the past for the first time -> Trunks comes back from TL3 -> Trunks goes to TL3 again without killing 17&18 -> Trunks comes from TL3 after the Cell games -> Trunks kills future 17 and 18 -> Trunks kills Cell

Now, a bit of an explanation on why I thin the TL went by this and why it's implied in the manga.

Firstly, changes in a TL in the DB universe are handled the following way:
A change is made in the past -> a whole new reality is created that reflects that change, but the original timeline doesn't disappear.

Now, since the TL we know most about is the 3rd one (which is already a consequence of multiple changes in the past), we have to concentrate on the HINTS the manga gives us, of moments that could've gone completely different if anything changed.

For example, the most obvious scenario in my opinion is Trunks's appearance in the 3rd timeline. As we learned later, Goku was just about to jump with the instant transmission when Trunks appeared. Had he acted just an instant later, we would've had a very different outcome on that fight.

We know one of the differences between TL1 and TL4 is that Trunks killed the androids after coming back from a past TL we don't see (TL2).
Trunks travelled to the past to observe Goku and the other z-warriors fight, and learn something that would allow him to defeat the androids (or even ask Goku to come help in the future), and the only thing that could change between 1st TL Trunks and 4th TL Trunks before the future events is the Mecha Freezer encounter.

So my explanation goes like this:
1. Trunks fought Mecha and Cold with Goku and the z-warriors in the 2nd TL, and he learned something that was useful to him (it could go from a technique, to better ideas on how to fight a stronger enemy, or even just some senzu beans).
My bet, the senzu beans: In Trunks future, senzu beans disappeared years before Trunks ever started to think about travelling in time.
In the 3rd TL, there's no fight against Mecha and Cold (both are killed instantly by Trunks) so no one used them, and Trunks left after leaving the message.
But in the 2nd TL, that fight was presumed to be brutal (we know that 1st TL fight against Mecha and Cold was, Son Goku was involved and Trunks gained that something that he needed to defeat future androids), so it's only logical to think that the senzu beans were used, and upon seeing them, Trunks asked them to fight the androids of his TL.

2. He used those senzus to kill the future androids. The future androids were weaker than the present ones, and Trunks could fight them fairly well:

Trunks: They weren't as outrageously strong as this... Even I could fight them fairly well...

So, if he could fight them fairly well, it meant that the biggest inconvenient would be the android's unlimited energy/stamina. Furthermore, it also meant that Trunks was stronger than Future 17 or Future 18 alone. Being able to fight at maximum strength, without caring about his stamina because of a couple of senzu beans, could allow future Trunks to kill the future androids and would explain why this changed between the Trunks that arrived at the 2nd TL and the one that arrived at the 3rd one.

3. Then, when he was going to come back to tell the others, he was killed by Cell instead, who travelled to 1 year before Trunk's first arrival (that's why the same 1st TL Trunks ends both in TL1 -future where he is killed- and TL4 -future where he kills Cell-).

4. Something Cell did made Trunks act an instant later than he did originally in the Mecha Freezer outcome. My assumption here is that it has to be something very trivial and indirect, like, considering that nearly all life had been extinguished in the Future TL, maybe a flock of birds originating from the forest where Cell arrived. Something uncommon in the future TL that would distract him that instant, triggered by Cell's arrival -he may have devoured some animals just after exiting the egg and while in his pre-1st form state-.

That explanation perfectly fits with all the data we have about the TL in the Cell saga, and unlike the Daizenshuu one, explains everything without leaving any empty gap.

I know we had some discussions on the other thread about the remote being used, I'll debunk them in the next message to not turn the OP of the thread into a discussion (I won't be doing it today though).

there are no senzu beans in the future timeline,and no,trunks can't even kill 17 or 18 alone.18 would have soloed him by herself if he hadn;t went into ROSAT

 

[freezamite]

Yeah, the only difference is the way Trunks kills the androids. It isn't specified in the original manga and when either way you are going to have to explain some things.

Besides that, I would say the main difference is how the changes between timelines are explained. How would you justify the following changes?
1. Goku dies sooner.
2. Future Nº17 and Nº18 being weaker.
3. No Nº19 and Nº20 not existing.

In your theory. Which actions in the past would cause those to happen (without having to write a whole side-story for each one of them, things implied in the manga) and how?

What do you mean? Trunks stated he didn't want to attack the androids and would rather wait so Goku would recover from his illness WHEN Vegeta was willing to fight them... that is, way before from what Trunks stated to Gohan (that Gero ought to have some emergency switch). At that time (when he said they should wait for Goku), he probably didn't even fathom the possibility of them being stopped by an emergency switch.

You have to remember that Gohan and Trunks were in their way to search for the time machine that Bulma found out, and then they learned about this monster and bla bla bla. Trunks new the androids were out there searching for Goku, so why would he think that searching for something in the lab would put him in contact with the androids? Doesn't add up.

Well I assumed that in that theory Trunks had to search for the remote before going back to the future for the first time (in other words, just after beating Mecha and Cold) because as I saw it (at the moment) multiple time-travels for Trunks should've implied multiple extra time-lines, but that hasn't to be the case at all since Trunks 2nd time travel is dependant on the first one and if that one was changed everything afterwards can happen differently so no need for any extra time-line.

I don't like it as much as my theory because even if it doesn't contradict the manga, it leaves more points unexplained, but I can't say it's wrong by any means.

Yeah, if we assume that kid Trunks (from the main timeline) had SSJ since a kid because of inheriting it from Vegeta (Vegeta had sex with Bulma when he already had SSJ), then the Trunks from Cell's timeline would logically also be a SSJ since a kid, a full power SSJ. May be also worth noting that the Mirai Trunks we all know of had already SSJ when he was 13, that is, at a pretty young age... what do you think about it?

But all in all yeah, Trunks killing Freeza and his father, handing Goku the medicine, advising everyone about the androids would logically mean they would go to the same training regimen as they did in the main timeline... unless maybe we assume the Cell in the main timeline had also an effect on this --shrugs--.

Well, Mirai Trunks is pretty similar to current TL Gohan in that they reach the SSJ stage very soon, but neither of them was born as a SSJ. Gohan had to endure the same training as Goku to become a FPSSJ, and future Trunks never achieved it on his own (at least that we saw).

If we assume kid Trunks was a FPSSJ since this young age like in the main timeline, then it maybe stands a reason for why he could have killed the androids on his own without going to another timeline, but ended up getting killed by Cell due to a surprise attack (at least in future Trunks' timeline Cell seemed to be hidden and kind of setting up a surprise attack).

Yeah, in that I agree, and it could also be argued that Cell couldn't notice Trunks superior strength because he killed him without giving him any chance to defend himself.

That goes into the implicit criteria. It seems just travelling to the past is going to change the timeline in a way people can't exactly predict. Both Trunks and Cell were changing the main timeline from my point of view, so if Goku died in Cell's timeline despite having apparently gotten the medicine (unless we assume Trunks didn't hand him that, which doesn't make sense), and yet in the main timeline he only died in the Cell Games, then Cell is the responsible for all that. Goku's illness might have showed up before (like in Trunks' timeline), then he took the medicine, fought with everyone against the androids and ended up getting killed... or maybe the time of the illness wasn't altered, and he ended up recovering but dying when fighting again with the other ones. But the thing we know is that Goku in Cell's timeline is dead and the androids sow destruction and were later destroyed by Trunks, unlike in the main timeline, so Cell ought to have changed things up.

As I understood it, it's changes in the past that create a different TL (and yes, it could be argued that just the fact of travelling back in time is already a change in the past, but I don't think this was how Toriyama envisioned it -just my opinion of course-), Trunks insisted a lot in that it was his actions (and not just his presence) what changed everything.

What do you think about this chart that also takes into account Freeza being killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline?

Maybe you won't like it as much because Cell was killed by the androids 17 and 18 in Trunks' timeline, whereas he should have made himself strong enough to deal with them, right?

Yeah, I can't buy that. Firstly, the androids weren't even aware of Cell's existence, so unless they found him by pure coincidence (which is not what's implied here) Cell had all the time he needed to properly power up.
Secondly, Cell had accurate data on the androids, and the only ones that deviated from that data was to be weaker than expected, not stronger.
I can't even begin to envision why would Cell attack the androids if his strength was not enough to grant an easy kill (like he did in the present TL) and pointlessly risk his life.

I like your theories far more than this one. Your theories... I simply can't debunk them as wrong. The only thing I can say is that with them you have to put more imagination in explaining the changes between TLs, but there's nothing that screams "bad reasoning" there.

there are no senzu beans in the future timeline,and no,trunks can't even kill 17 or 18 alone.18 would have soloed him by herself if he hadn;t went into ROSAT

Look, this is what Trunks (before any RoSAT) training said about the future androids:

Trunks: They weren't as outrageously strong as this... Even I could fight them fairly well...

You don't like it, ok, but that's said. And the concept of "fighting someone fairly well" can't be changed, no matter how you try to spin that sentence.

Now, here's the thing, there were no senzu beans in the future, so Trunks had to manage his stamina. Even while doing that, he managed to fight them "fairly well" (in other words, it was a close enough fight and not the androids trashing him like you imply), so that same Trunks with a couple of senzus that he brought from the past (TL2, the one we can't see) is a very plausible explanation as to how he defeated those androids and also why he didn't try to do it in the TL we see.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

Yeah, the only difference is the way Trunks kills the androids. It isn't specified in the original manga and when either way you are going to have to explain some things.

Besides that, I would say the main difference is how the changes between timelines are explained. How would you justify the following changes?
1. Goku dies sooner.
2. Future Nº17 and Nº18 being weaker.
3. No Nº19 and Nº20 not existing.

In your theory. Which actions in the past would cause those to happen (without having to write a whole side-story for each one of them, things implied in the manga) and how?

What do you mean? Trunks stated he didn't want to attack the androids and would rather wait so Goku would recover from his illness WHEN Vegeta was willing to fight them... that is, way before from what Trunks stated to Gohan (that Gero ought to have some emergency switch). At that time (when he said they should wait for Goku), he probably didn't even fathom the possibility of them being stopped by an emergency switch.

You have to remember that Gohan and Trunks were in their way to search for the time machine that Bulma found out, and then they learned about this monster and bla bla bla. Trunks new the androids were out there searching for Goku, so why would he think that searching for something in the lab would put him in contact with the androids? Doesn't add up.

Well I assumed that in that theory Trunks had to search for the remote before going back to the future for the first time (in other words, just after beating Mecha and Cold) because as I saw it (at the moment) multiple time-travels for Trunks should've implied multiple extra time-lines, but that hasn't to be the case at all since Trunks 2nd time travel is dependant on the first one and if that one was changed everything afterwards can happen differently so no need for any extra time-line.

I don't like it as much as my theory because even if it doesn't contradict the manga, it leaves more points unexplained, but I can't say it's wrong by any means.

Yeah, if we assume that kid Trunks (from the main timeline) had SSJ since a kid because of inheriting it from Vegeta (Vegeta had sex with Bulma when he already had SSJ), then the Trunks from Cell's timeline would logically also be a SSJ since a kid, a full power SSJ. May be also worth noting that the Mirai Trunks we all know of had already SSJ when he was 13, that is, at a pretty young age... what do you think about it?

But all in all yeah, Trunks killing Freeza and his father, handing Goku the medicine, advising everyone about the androids would logically mean they would go to the same training regimen as they did in the main timeline... unless maybe we assume the Cell in the main timeline had also an effect on this --shrugs--.

Well, Mirai Trunks is pretty similar to current TL Gohan in that they reach the SSJ stage very soon, but neither of them was born as a SSJ. Gohan had to endure the same training as Goku to become a FPSSJ, and future Trunks never achieved it on his own (at least that we saw).

If we assume kid Trunks was a FPSSJ since this young age like in the main timeline, then it maybe stands a reason for why he could have killed the androids on his own without going to another timeline, but ended up getting killed by Cell due to a surprise attack (at least in future Trunks' timeline Cell seemed to be hidden and kind of setting up a surprise attack).

Yeah, in that I agree, and it could also be argued that Cell couldn't notice Trunks superior strength because he killed him without giving him any chance to defend himself.

That goes into the implicit criteria. It seems just travelling to the past is going to change the timeline in a way people can't exactly predict. Both Trunks and Cell were changing the main timeline from my point of view, so if Goku died in Cell's timeline despite having apparently gotten the medicine (unless we assume Trunks didn't hand him that, which doesn't make sense), and yet in the main timeline he only died in the Cell Games, then Cell is the responsible for all that. Goku's illness might have showed up before (like in Trunks' timeline), then he took the medicine, fought with everyone against the androids and ended up getting killed... or maybe the time of the illness wasn't altered, and he ended up recovering but dying when fighting again with the other ones. But the thing we know is that Goku in Cell's timeline is dead and the androids sow destruction and were later destroyed by Trunks, unlike in the main timeline, so Cell ought to have changed things up.

As I understood it, it's changes in the past that create a different TL (and yes, it could be argued that just the fact of travelling back in time is already a change in the past, but I don't think this was how Toriyama envisioned it -just my opinion of course-), Trunks insisted a lot in that it was his actions (and not just his presence) what changed everything.

What do you think about this chart that also takes into account Freeza being killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline?

Maybe you won't like it as much because Cell was killed by the androids 17 and 18 in Trunks' timeline, whereas he should have made himself strong enough to deal with them, right?

Yeah, I can't buy that. Firstly, the androids weren't even aware of Cell's existence, so unless they found him by pure coincidence (which is not what's implied here) Cell had all the time he needed to properly power up.
Secondly, Cell had accurate data on the androids, and the only ones that deviated from that data was to be weaker than expected, not stronger.
I can't even begin to envision why would Cell attack the androids if his strength was not enough to grant an easy kill (like he did in the present TL) and pointlessly risk his life.

I like your theories far more than this one. Your theories... I simply can't debunk them as wrong. The only thing I can say is that with them you have to put more imagination in explaining the changes between TLs, but there's nothing that screams "bad reasoning" there.

there are no senzu beans in the future timeline,and no,trunks can't even kill 17 or 18 alone.18 would have soloed him by herself if he hadn;t went into ROSAT

Look, this is what Trunks (before any RoSAT) training said about the future androids:

Trunks: They weren't as outrageously strong as this... Even I could fight them fairly well...

You don't like it, ok, but that's said. And the concept of "fighting someone fairly well" can't be changed, no matter how you try to spin that sentence.

Now, here's the thing, there were no senzu beans in the future, so Trunks had to manage his stamina. Even while doing that, he managed to fight them "fairly well" (in other words, it was a close enough fight and not the androids trashing him like you imply), so that same Trunks with a couple of senzus that he brought from the past (TL2, the one we can't see) is a very plausible explanation as to how he defeated those androids and also why he didn't try to do it in the TL we see.

obviously the androds had been playing with him all along.18 thought that she can handle him by herself,and easily at that.She wouldnt feel that way if trunks was as strong as her or 17

 

[ahill1]

Besides that, I would say the main difference is how the changes between timelines are explained. How would you justify the following changes?
1. Goku dies sooner.
2. Future Nº17 and Nº18 being weaker.
3. No Nº19 and Nº20 not existing.

In your theory. Which actions in the past would cause those to happen (without having to write a whole side-story for each one of them, things implied in the manga) and how?

I think I'd go with the basic one, that Trunks and Cell appearing in the main timeline changed things from how they were supposed to happen. Not even Trunks is sure about why those things ended up changing.

I have seen some ppl saying that #17 and #18 were stronger in the present due to Goku surviving there, so that way Gero wouldn't weaken them even further like he did in the future. Seems strange though considering he opted to use #19 and #20 later on, who were considerably weaker than the future ones.

Well I assumed that in that theory Trunks had to search for the remote before going back to the future for the first time (in other words, just after beating Mecha and Cold) because as I saw it (at the moment) multiple time-travels for Trunks should've implied multiple extra time-lines, but that hasn't to be the case at all since Trunks 2nd time travel is dependant on the first one and if that one was changed everything afterwards can happen differently so no need for any extra time-line.

I don't like it as much as my theory because even if it doesn't contradict the manga, it leaves more points unexplained, but I can't say it's wrong by any means.

Okay, what do you think happened in the timeline the Trunks from Cell's timeline supposedly created? How do you think things went down there?

Well, Mirai Trunks is pretty similar to current TL Gohan in that they reach the SSJ stage very soon, but neither of them was born as a SSJ. Gohan had to endure the same training as Goku to become a FPSSJ, and future Trunks never achieved it on his own (at least that we saw).

Sure, but do we know when did future Trunks turn into a SSJ? The future Trunks that battled in the CGs, I mean.

As I understood it, it's changes in the past that create a different TL (and yes, it could be argued that just the fact of travelling back in time is already a change in the past, but I don't think this was how Toriyama envisioned it -just my opinion of course-), Trunks insisted a lot in that it was his actions (and not just his presence) what changed everything.

Trunks actually wasn't sure. He was constantly asking himself why did things change so much, trying to figure out all this shit. Firstly, it's arguable he thought that his actions would be the thing that would change the timeline, but later on he got very surprised at the fact that the past changed so much and started to wonder why did this happen.

He wondered if him merely coming to the past changed all that.

Later on Trunks is still not so sure why things happened so much, and is wondering again if it were because he used the time machine before:

And then Trunks even asked if that mysterious time machine was the reason the story changed so much:

Spoiler

So I think that all in all Trunks initially thought the only thing changing would be Goku not dying and Mecha Freeza being killed, that is, the things he had direct influence on... but then started to wonder if his travel to the past changed things so much and wondered if that other time machine would be the responsible for so many differet things.

Now I don't think Cell's the sole responsible for everything changing, but I think both Trunks and Cell ought to have changed how things were structured, and that just merely travelling to that world would change it somehow.

Yeah, I can't buy that. Firstly, the androids weren't even aware of Cell's existence, so unless they found him by pure coincidence (which is not what's implied here) Cell had all the time he needed to properly power up.
Secondly, Cell had accurate data on the androids, and the only ones that deviated from that data was to be weaker than expected, not stronger.
I can't even begin to envision why would Cell attack the androids if his strength was not enough to grant an easy kill (like he did in the present TL) and pointlessly risk his life.

I like your theories far more than this one. Your theories... I simply can't debunk them as wrong. The only thing I can say is that with them you have to put more imagination in explaining the changes between TLs, but there's nothing that screams "bad reasoning" there.

Regarding the present androids being stronger than the future ones, one could use that as a good point for the Cell's timeline have been structured in a different way compared to the future Trunks' one, for example. We have Trunks stating the present androids are much, much stronger than the future ones:

And yet Cell stated Piccolo is the only one who can fight against the androids:

Spoiler

So, it seems Cell's opinion on the androids' strength matches that of the present androids... if it were the future adroids, Cell should have been pretty worried about them being smashed aside by Piccolo that, while weighted, still was in the presente androids' league. Sure that you could argue that the androids in Trunks' timeline were supposed to be as strong as the ones in the main timeline and that Cell wasn't updated on Gero weakening them, but one could simply say as well that they are different because Cell's timeline is structured differently due to 'maybe' there being a Trunks killing Freeza there as well, and that the androids there are as strong as the ones from the main timeline... it's true that it doesn't seem there was a Cell there from a further in future timeline, but maybe Trunks' travelling and his actions were responsible for changing the androids' strength... and since it seemed the Androids in Cell's timeline threw the World into chaos, Cell was the responsible for changing their personality into "not so evil" beings in the present timeline... and in the Future one they were evil like in Trunks' timeline and strong like in the present one.

But it's cool to see you at least see my theories as plausible ones. I kind of range between them... although I find the last one more interesting.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Freezamite and Ahill are making love with each other in this thread. Just feel this vibe
between them, both being so turned on by fake timeline theories.

 

[freezamite]

I think I'd go with the basic one, that Trunks and Cell appearing in the main timeline changed things from how they were supposed to happen. Not even Trunks is sure about why those things ended up changing.

I have seen some ppl saying that #17 and #18 were stronger in the present due to Goku surviving there, so that way Gero wouldn't weaken them even further like he did in the future. Seems strange though considering he opted to use #19 and #20 later on, who were considerably weaker than the future ones.

That's why I still prefer my theory despite no finding any fatal flaws in yours, because it more or less can explain everything (not without it's fair share of speculation, of course, since the details we're given are what they're) with what's implied in the manga.

Okay, what do you think happened in the timeline the Trunks from Cell's timeline supposedly created? How do you think things went down there?

Sure, in fact I'll expand my previous explanation on the multiple TLs with the actions I think caused the changes between TLs and the impact those changes had as well (coupled with the manga references that I think are key to understand it):

1st TL:

TL1.0 No Cell here.

TL1.0 No Trunks here.

TL1.1 Goku & Z-Warriors beat Mecha & Cold in what's implied to be a hard fight.

Goku got ill because of the virus. Now, what do we know about that virus?
We know Goku got ill sooner (explained when Goku feels sicks against his fight with N19).
We know that forcing the body just makes things worse (Vegeta comments it to Goku when he saved his ass from #19 in TL3, implying that if Goku hadn't turned into a SSJ he would've been less affected by the virus).
No one other than Goku was infected.
It was a virus from the earth (not something he could catch while he trained in Yadrat or travelled back to home).
It was a virus not still discovered in the present.

Now, those are my conclusions when taking into account those facts:
The virus wasn't something extraordinarily deadly, more on the contrary, it was a virus that only affected weakened bodies. That would also explain why it was only discovered years into the future: like in real life (for example, with cancers), deaths caused by illnesses that appear when people gets old are normally attributed to other common illnesses. In this case it's pretty understandable that this could be the case, since an old man dying from a heart attack isn't something that would cause suspicions of a virus, so it only got detected later when the technology allowed it or when a med inspecting an infected patient found it by pure luck (it doesn't matter really, since an explanation on that is not given, anyone is free to guess here).

We also know that Toriyama was aware of a virus being contagious, in other words, to apply real life logic in a manga is often dangerous because you don't know if in the author was knowledgeable about that "real life logic" when he drew the scene.
But we have a scene of Yamcha telling Chi Chi to take the medicine as well, and the explanation is precisely that it being a virus it could be contagious. So the fact that no one in the future got ill and died like Goku, and the fact that Toriyama took into account that viruses are contagious and commented on it, must mean that something was different with Goku's body.

Now, if something was different between Goku's body an the rest of the z-warriors bodies, it's also obvious that something was different between TL1 and TL3 (the one we see, since I number them in order of creation) Goku's bodies, since TL1 Goku got ill much faster.
We know of two things that at that point of the series cause stress to the body -the reason given as to why Goku's condition gets worse faster-, and are exclusive to Goku: the SSJ and the KK.

If you think about it, it couldn't be the SSJ the one that caused this difference. Even if Trunks coming from the future saved Goku one transformation to SSJ (the one he would've had to make to fight Mecha & Cold), we know for sure that in the 3 year training with Piccolo and Gohan Goku constantly went SSJ (Piccolo knew how strong he could be, and without considering the illness), so if it was the SSJ that caused the change Goku should've had to get ill faster than his future self.

So we only have the KK which was much more harmful to the body. From what happens in TL3 after the androids appear, we know that Goku has completely abandoned the KK and concentrated on mastering the SSJ to bring out its full potential.
If this was a reality after the 3 year gap, it's only logical that it would also be the case during it (nothing in TL3 makes Goku realise that the SSJ can be evolved further while the KK is a dead end, which means that Goku already knew this from before -probably since he learned to transform into a SSJ in fact-).
In other words, the KK completely fits the bill. It's very harmful to the body (much more than the SSJ), Goku had the intention of abandoning it for the SSJ which also justifies why he didn't use it in his training in TL1/TL4 or TL3 and at that point in the series, it still offered (when at 20x) a higher power level than the SSJ so it's use in case of extreme necessity in a battle (the one with Mecha and Cold) was still justified.

Consequences of this event:

Unlike the fight in TL3, this was a huge battle (not with Mecha, but presumably with Cold). In TL3, after obliterating Mecha, Cold assumes that it's Trunks' sword that allowed him to kill Freezer so easily, tries to trick him, and gets killed without even being able to fight.
But Goku would never do that. In fact, I more or less imagine things going like this:
- Goku appears and kills Freezer soldiers.
- Mecha Freezer attacks and is easily handled by SSJ Goku.
- Goku comments on how weak Mecha is now and gives him an opportunity to leave.
- Cold gains confidence after knowing Mecha's real condition, plus this time there's no sword to justify Freezer's easy defeat, so no other option than to fight at maximum strength in his true form.

The thing is, if Goku was forced to use a KK the fight had to be very violent and at a level not even an untrained SSJ could handle by himself (he probably got beat as a SSJ, eat a senzu, and used KK in round two, or got beat as a SSJ but used KK on Cold before loosing too much strength).

A fight like this could easily affect Guero's lab and could justify most of the changes related to present and future androids. Let's say a ki blast impacted the lab indirectly, this could perfectly have an effect on N17 and N18's making process making them weaker than intended.
And unlike in TL3, TL1 Guero would be aware of the huge increase in power of the SSJs because of that fight, which would also explain why he directly went all out with N17 and N18 instead of making N19 turn him into a robot and try to beat Goku by himself.

TL1.2 Goku dies.

TL1.3 Future androids kill nearly everyone.

TL1.4 Trunks goes to the past.

TL1.5/TL2.1 Goku & the other Z-Warriors fight Mecha & Cold with Trunks in there:

We know Trunks wanted to avoid changing the future as much as possible (except for the things that went wrong, namely the androids and Goku's death), and we also know that if he acted (in TL3) just an instant later than he did, Goku would've teleported himself with the shunkanido.
So, my guess is that something (Cell) made Trunks act a bit later than he did in TL3, just that instant that would allow Goku to appear there instead of remaining on the space-ship trying to understand what was happening.

With Goku on the scene, my assumption is that Trunks waited hidden until the fight was over, and presented himself after the events. Trunks only acted because he assumed Goku wouldn't be able to arrive on time, so with Goku there, he probably just observed the fight (so, any direct consequences the fight could've had were the same way in TL2. In other words, no N16, N19 and N20 and also weakened N17 and N18 appearing instead).

So he observed Goku and the z-warriors fight Mecha and Cold, and those are the consequences:

- Trunks gave Goku the medicine and warned him about the androids.

- Trunks was reminded of the senzu beans or learned more about them. We know in the future he knew that the senzu beans existed in the past and that they were a formidable medicine, but I don't think he ever saw one in action. He could think of them as just very good medicines, but still be ignorant about the instant-full recovery properties of them, so after seeing them in the fight against MF&C, he took some for himself.
Another explanation could be that while still aware of their effects, those years since the last time he saw one made him focus his fighting strategies on getting stronger or learning new techniques so that's what he had on mind when he came to the past and didn't think about the the senzus until seeing the Z-warriors using them. This would have an impact on TL1.

TL1.6 Trunks goes back to the future and kills N17 and N18.

I've already explained this one a lot so I won't give a very long explanation.
Trunks said he could fight the future (weakened) androids fairly well, and now he had some senzus from TL2 with himself, which compensated for the unlimited stamina the androids had.
If Trunks was able to competently confront them without a senzu and knowing the androids had unlimited strength, it's not difficult to imagine why something completely impossible without the senzus suddenly became a possibility with them.

TL1.7 Cell kills future Trunks and travels to past (creating 3rd TL).

TL1.8 Life continue without the androids, any Z-warrior or Cell.


2nd TL:
TL2.0 No Cell here.

TL2.1/TL1.5 Goku & the other Z-Warriors fight Mecha & Cold with Trunks in there (exactly as described at TL1.5).

TL2.2 Unknown 2nd TL developments. My speculations.
Since TL2.1/TL1.5 is the reason behind the changes related to the androids and Guero's actions, these went like in TL1. So Guero activates a weakened N17/N18 instead of robotising himself, he is killed by the androids at his lab and the androids attack.
On the other hand, Goku was warned about his future disease and given the medicine, and this time he forced his body like in TL1, so he would take the medicine on time and be healed to fight the androids.
With Goku and Trunks in the picture, Vegeta attained the SSJ form like in TL3 and I also assume Piccolo powered up as much as he did in TL3, so the fight with 17 and 18 didn't went like in the future, more on the contrary.
If Trunks could fight them reasonably well, Vegeta and Goku could perfectly kill them without the need of a single senzu bean, and with them and the help of the other z-warriors, I can't imagine anything that wasn't a clear win for them over the androids.

The story continued, presumably with Bu involved (the justification behind Babidi's arrival in TL3 and not in TL1 was that he came to the earth looking for energy for Bu. It's pretty understandable why he wouldn't do this in the timelines where the androids had already eradicated most of the life of the planet), but from here onwards everything is just speculation.
Goku probably reached SSJ2, but not SSJ3 due to him not being killed (and we know that being dead was a huge help for him to be a SSJ3). Vegeta probably reached SSJ2 as well (it could even be assumed that he could be above his TL3 Bu saga counterpart, since with Goku alive his motivation to get better and better would only be much higher).
Gohan would be much weaker than he already was (without Cell I don't even think he would've had entered the RoSAT ever), maybe not even a FPSSJ but with Goku there one can't be that sure (Goku could push Gohan to train, but he didn't do it with Goten so I don't think he would be much different with Gohan if there wasn't an enemy to fight against...)

3rd TL:
TL3.1 Cell arrives from TL1.
We know what caused that, so only the consequences need to be explained. We know that he arrived from the future inside his egg, that he grew until he had that insect-like body Gohan & Trunks will find later and then he mutated into what's normally called 1st form Cell.
His arrival somehow affected Trunks' actions when he came back from the future for the first time, but Cell only feed himself and buried for years, and the fact that the body of his pre-1st form self was very close to the time-travel machine implies that whatever he did, he didn't go far from there.
But since Trunks actions only needed to be affected a mere instant for TL3 to be different than TL2, I think it can be justified with something as simple as Trunks being surprised by the wildlife of present TL earth in TL2, Cell having killed those animals in TL3 before Trunks arrival, and Trunks not having that distraction making him act before he did in TL2 (that's of course a random excuse of me because I don't remember anything said about this that could give us a hint of what really happened, but since it's just an instant anything will do, it doesn't need to be very big).

TL3.2 Trunks arrives from TL1 and kills Mecha & Cold just before Goku arrives (TL4 implied to be created here).
We already know the consequences of that. Since there was no brutal fight between MF&C and the z-warriors, Guero's investigations weren't affected by the fight, and Guero himself felt confident enough to try to invade the earth himself (with the help of N19) instead of sending N17 and N18 like he did before.
Also, Trunks returned to the future just after warning Goku about his future illness but without the senzus from TL2 which is what created TL4.


TL3.3 - until end of TL3: The events seen in the manga.


4th TL:
TL4.0 Identical to TL1 until TL1.5/TL2.1.
Since this timeline is created by Trunks going back to the future after some modified events he wasn't aware off, TL4 is identical to TL1 until Trunks travelled to the past for the first time.

TL4.1 Trunks doesn't fight the future androids.

TL4.2 Trunks comes from TL3 after the Cell games and kills future 17, 18 and Cell.

With this theory, I think nearly everything is explained. The only black spot I haven't found a clue on how to justify is how Cell affected Trunks' entrance, but as I said, that was only an instant, so any change with a bit of imagination can do the trick.

The thing is... do we take those images from when Cell explained everything literally or as simply copied panels without any more intention than that?
If we take it as just copied panels, then I think that unless any other contradiction is found I'll stick with this explanation of the facts, because they fill the gaps pretty well in my opinion and most of what I say is directly hinted in the manga.
On the other hand, if those panels mean that Mecha and Cold were killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline, then it has to be one of your theories because mine simply doesn't compute.

 

[Victorious]

Goku doesnt kill Freeza in Cell's timeline. 'A' Future Trunks kills Freeza in Cell's timeline. Cell's timeline is all fucked up.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

I think I'd go with the basic one, that Trunks and Cell appearing in the main timeline changed things from how they were supposed to happen. Not even Trunks is sure about why those things ended up changing.

I have seen some ppl saying that #17 and #18 were stronger in the present due to Goku surviving there, so that way Gero wouldn't weaken them even further like he did in the future. Seems strange though considering he opted to use #19 and #20 later on, who were considerably weaker than the future ones.

That's why I still prefer my theory despite no finding any fatal flaws in yours, because it more or less can explain everything (not without it's fair share of speculation, of course, since the details we're given are what they're) with what's implied in the manga.

Okay, what do you think happened in the timeline the Trunks from Cell's timeline supposedly created? How do you think things went down there?

Sure, in fact I'll expand my previous explanation on the multiple TLs with the actions I think caused the changes between TLs and the impact those changes had as well (coupled with the manga references that I think are key to understand it):

1st TL:

TL1.0 No Cell here.

TL1.0 No Trunks here.

TL1.1 Goku & Z-Warriors beat Mecha & Cold in what's implied to be a hard fight.

Goku got ill because of the virus. Now, what do we know about that virus?
We know Goku got ill sooner (explained when Goku feels sicks against his fight with N19).
We know that forcing the body just makes things worse (Vegeta comments it to Goku when he saved his ass from #19 in TL3, implying that if Goku hadn't turned into a SSJ he would've been less affected by the virus).
No one other than Goku was infected.
It was a virus from the earth (not something he could catch while he trained in Yadrat or travelled back to home).
It was a virus not still discovered in the present.

Now, those are my conclusions when taking into account those facts:
The virus wasn't something extraordinarily deadly, more on the contrary, it was a virus that only affected weakened bodies. That would also explain why it was only discovered years into the future: like in real life (for example, with cancers), deaths caused by illnesses that appear when people gets old are normally attributed to other common illnesses. In this case it's pretty understandable that this could be the case, since an old man dying from a heart attack isn't something that would cause suspicions of a virus, so it only got detected later when the technology allowed it or when a med inspecting an infected patient found it by pure luck (it doesn't matter really, since an explanation on that is not given, anyone is free to guess here).

We also know that Toriyama was aware of a virus being contagious, in other words, to apply real life logic in a manga is often dangerous because you don't know if in the author was knowledgeable about that "real life logic" when he drew the scene.
But we have a scene of Yamcha telling Chi Chi to take the medicine as well, and the explanation is precisely that it being a virus it could be contagious. So the fact that no one in the future got ill and died like Goku, and the fact that Toriyama took into account that viruses are contagious and commented on it, must mean that something was different with Goku's body.

Now, if something was different between Goku's body an the rest of the z-warriors bodies, it's also obvious that something was different between TL1 and TL3 (the one we see, since I number them in order of creation) Goku's bodies, since TL1 Goku got ill much faster.
We know of two things that at that point of the series cause stress to the body -the reason given as to why Goku's condition gets worse faster-, and are exclusive to Goku: the SSJ and the KK.

If you think about it, it couldn't be the SSJ the one that caused this difference. Even if Trunks coming from the future saved Goku one transformation to SSJ (the one he would've had to make to fight Mecha & Cold), we know for sure that in the 3 year training with Piccolo and Gohan Goku constantly went SSJ (Piccolo knew how strong he could be, and without considering the illness), so if it was the SSJ that caused the change Goku should've had to get ill faster than his future self.

So we only have the KK which was much more harmful to the body. From what happens in TL3 after the androids appear, we know that Goku has completely abandoned the KK and concentrated on mastering the SSJ to bring out its full potential.
If this was a reality after the 3 year gap, it's only logical that it would also be the case during it (nothing in TL3 makes Goku realise that the SSJ can be evolved further while the KK is a dead end, which means that Goku already knew this from before -probably since he learned to transform into a SSJ in fact-).
In other words, the KK completely fits the bill. It's very harmful to the body (much more than the SSJ), Goku had the intention of abandoning it for the SSJ which also justifies why he didn't use it in his training in TL1/TL4 or TL3 and at that point in the series, it still offered (when at 20x) a higher power level than the SSJ so it's use in case of extreme necessity in a battle (the one with Mecha and Cold) was still justified.

Consequences of this event:

Unlike the fight in TL3, this was a huge battle (not with Mecha, but presumably with Cold). In TL3, after obliterating Mecha, Cold assumes that it's Trunks' sword that allowed him to kill Freezer so easily, tries to trick him, and gets killed without even being able to fight.
But Goku would never do that. In fact, I more or less imagine things going like this:
- Goku appears and kills Freezer soldiers.
- Mecha Freezer attacks and is easily handled by SSJ Goku.
- Goku comments on how weak Mecha is now and gives him an opportunity to leave.
- Cold gains confidence after knowing Mecha's real condition, plus this time there's no sword to justify Freezer's easy defeat, so no other option than to fight at maximum strength in his true form.

The thing is, if Goku was forced to use a KK the fight had to be very violent and at a level not even an untrained SSJ could handle by himself (he probably got beat as a SSJ, eat a senzu, and used KK in round two, or got beat as a SSJ but used KK on Cold before loosing too much strength).

A fight like this could easily affect Guero's lab and could justify most of the changes related to present and future androids. Let's say a ki blast impacted the lab indirectly, this could perfectly have an effect on N17 and N18's making process making them weaker than intended.
And unlike in TL3, TL1 Guero would be aware of the huge increase in power of the SSJs because of that fight, which would also explain why he directly went all out with N17 and N18 instead of making N19 turn him into a robot and try to beat Goku by himself.

TL1.2 Goku dies.

TL1.3 Future androids kill nearly everyone.

TL1.4 Trunks goes to the past.

TL1.5/TL2.1 Goku & the other Z-Warriors fight Mecha & Cold with Trunks in there:

We know Trunks wanted to avoid changing the future as much as possible (except for the things that went wrong, namely the androids and Goku's death), and we also know that if he acted (in TL3) just an instant later than he did, Goku would've teleported himself with the shunkanido.
So, my guess is that something (Cell) made Trunks act a bit later than he did in TL3, just that instant that would allow Goku to appear there instead of remaining on the space-ship trying to understand what was happening.

With Goku on the scene, my assumption is that Trunks waited hidden until the fight was over, and presented himself after the events. Trunks only acted because he assumed Goku wouldn't be able to arrive on time, so with Goku there, he probably just observed the fight (so, any direct consequences the fight could've had were the same way in TL2. In other words, no N16, N19 and N20 and also weakened N17 and N18 appearing instead).

So he observed Goku and the z-warriors fight Mecha and Cold, and those are the consequences:

- Trunks gave Goku the medicine and warned him about the androids.

- Trunks was reminded of the senzu beans or learned more about them. We know in the future he knew that the senzu beans existed in the past and that they were a formidable medicine, but I don't think he ever saw one in action. He could think of them as just very good medicines, but still be ignorant about the instant-full recovery properties of them, so after seeing them in the fight against MF&C, he took some for himself.
Another explanation could be that while still aware of their effects, those years since the last time he saw one made him focus his fighting strategies on getting stronger or learning new techniques so that's what he had on mind when he came to the past and didn't think about the the senzus until seeing the Z-warriors using them. This would have an impact on TL1.

TL1.6 Trunks goes back to the future and kills N17 and N18.

I've already explained this one a lot so I won't give a very long explanation.
Trunks said he could fight the future (weakened) androids fairly well, and now he had some senzus from TL2 with himself, which compensated for the unlimited stamina the androids had.
If Trunks was able to competently confront them without a senzu and knowing the androids had unlimited strength, it's not difficult to imagine why something completely impossible without the senzus suddenly became a possibility with them.

TL1.7 Cell kills future Trunks and travels to past (creating 3rd TL).

TL1.8 Life continue without the androids, any Z-warrior or Cell.


2nd TL:
TL2.0 No Cell here.

TL2.1/TL1.5 Goku & the other Z-Warriors fight Mecha & Cold with Trunks in there (exactly as described at TL1.5).

TL2.2 Unknown 2nd TL developments. My speculations.
Since TL2.1/TL1.5 is the reason behind the changes related to the androids and Guero's actions, these went like in TL1. So Guero activates a weakened N17/N18 instead of robotising himself, he is killed by the androids at his lab and the androids attack.
On the other hand, Goku was warned about his future disease and given the medicine, and this time he forced his body like in TL1, so he would take the medicine on time and be healed to fight the androids.
With Goku and Trunks in the picture, Vegeta attained the SSJ form like in TL3 and I also assume Piccolo powered up as much as he did in TL3, so the fight with 17 and 18 didn't went like in the future, more on the contrary.
If Trunks could fight them reasonably well, Vegeta and Goku could perfectly kill them without the need of a single senzu bean, and with them and the help of the other z-warriors, I can't imagine anything that wasn't a clear win for them over the androids.

The story continued, presumably with Bu involved (the justification behind Babidi's arrival in TL3 and not in TL1 was that he came to the earth looking for energy for Bu. It's pretty understandable why he wouldn't do this in the timelines where the androids had already eradicated most of the life of the planet), but from here onwards everything is just speculation.
Goku probably reached SSJ2, but not SSJ3 due to him not being killed (and we know that being dead was a huge help for him to be a SSJ3). Vegeta probably reached SSJ2 as well (it could even be assumed that he could be above his TL3 Bu saga counterpart, since with Goku alive his motivation to get better and better would only be much higher).
Gohan would be much weaker than he already was (without Cell I don't even think he would've had entered the RoSAT ever), maybe not even a FPSSJ but with Goku there one can't be that sure (Goku could push Gohan to train, but he didn't do it with Goten so I don't think he would be much different with Gohan if there wasn't an enemy to fight against...)

3rd TL:
TL3.1 Cell arrives from TL1.
We know what caused that, so only the consequences need to be explained. We know that he arrived from the future inside his egg, that he grew until he had that insect-like body Gohan & Trunks will find later and then he mutated into what's normally called 1st form Cell.
His arrival somehow affected Trunks' actions when he came back from the future for the first time, but Cell only feed himself and buried for years, and the fact that the body of his pre-1st form self was very close to the time-travel machine implies that whatever he did, he didn't go far from there.
But since Trunks actions only needed to be affected a mere instant for TL3 to be different than TL2, I think it can be justified with something as simple as Trunks being surprised by the wildlife of present TL earth in TL2, Cell having killed those animals in TL3 before Trunks arrival, and Trunks not having that distraction making him act before he did in TL2 (that's of course a random excuse of me because I don't remember anything said about this that could give us a hint of what really happened, but since it's just an instant anything will do, it doesn't need to be very big).

TL3.2 Trunks arrives from TL1 and kills Mecha & Cold just before Goku arrives (TL4 implied to be created here).
We already know the consequences of that. Since there was no brutal fight between MF&C and the z-warriors, Guero's investigations weren't affected by the fight, and Guero himself felt confident enough to try to invade the earth himself (with the help of N19) instead of sending N17 and N18 like he did before.
Also, Trunks returned to the future just after warning Goku about his future illness but without the senzus from TL2 which is what created TL4.


TL3.3 - until end of TL3: The events seen in the manga.


4th TL:
TL4.0 Identical to TL1 until TL1.5/TL2.1.
Since this timeline is created by Trunks going back to the future after some modified events he wasn't aware off, TL4 is identical to TL1 until Trunks travelled to the past for the first time.

TL4.1 Trunks doesn't fight the future androids.

TL4.2 Trunks comes from TL3 after the Cell games and kills future 17, 18 and Cell.

With this theory, I think nearly everything is explained. The only black spot I haven't found a clue on how to justify is how Cell affected Trunks' entrance, but as I said, that was only an instant, so any change with a bit of imagination can do the trick.

The thing is... do we take those images from when Cell explained everything literally or as simply copied panels without any more intention than that?
If we take it as just copied panels, then I think that unless any other contradiction is found I'll stick with this explanation of the facts, because they fill the gaps pretty well in my opinion and most of what I say is directly hinted in the manga.
On the other hand, if those panels mean that Mecha and Cold were killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline, then it has to be one of your theories because mine simply doesn't compute.

"TL1.1 Goku & Z-Warriors beat Mecha & Cold in what's implied to be a hard fight."
Oh rly,where is it implied?????!!

 

[freezamite]

Goku doesnt kill Freeza in Cell's timeline. 'A' Future Trunks kills Freeza in Cell's timeline. Cell's timeline is all fucked up.

That's only if we assume that Toriyama wasn't recicling drawings when he drew that scene, but I think it was the case. I mean, even in the theories that can accomodate a future Trunks killing Mecha and Cold in Cell's TL, the TL is very, very different than what we know, and I do have to believe that the fight against Mecha and Cold was identical to the one in TL3 with Cell already being there?

If Cell's existance changed things that much just by itself, why would the Mecha fight be the only thing not affected by those changes at all?

"TL1.1 Goku & Z-Warriors beat Mecha & Cold in what's implied to be a hard fight."
Oh rly,where is it implied?????!!

Have you even read the message you're quoting? Because I gave it a 3 paragraph explanation with all the data the manga gives us and my take on it... but to summarise:
Future Goku couldn't beat Cold&Mecha just with his SSJ form, he was forced to use the KK (a technique he would no longer use or train, as seen in the present TL -TL3 in my explanation-) which can only mean that it was a hard fight (otherwise Goku wouldn't have used it).

 

[KyuubiAhri]

Goku doesnt kill Freeza in Cell's timeline. 'A' Future Trunks kills Freeza in Cell's timeline. Cell's timeline is all fucked up.

That's only if we assume that Toriyama wasn't recicling drawings when he drew that scene, but I think it was the case. I mean, even in the theories that can accomodate a future Trunks killing Mecha and Cold in Cell's TL, the TL is very, very different than what we know, and I do have to believe that the fight against Mecha and Cold was identical to the one in TL3 with Cell already being there?

If Cell's existance changed things that much just by itself, why would the Mecha fight be the only thing not affected by those changes at all?

"TL1.1 Goku & Z-Warriors beat Mecha & Cold in what's implied to be a hard fight."
Oh rly,where is it implied?????!!

Have you even read the message you're quoting? Because I gave it a 3 paragraph explanation with all the data the manga gives us and my take on it... but to summarise:
Future Goku couldn't beat Cold&Mecha just with his SSJ form, he was forced to use the KK (a technique he would no longer use or train, as seen in the present TL -TL3 in my explanation-) which can only mean that it was a hard fight (otherwise Goku wouldn't have used it).

are you high?!! KAioken 20x goku is not even as strong as 50% frieza and Ssj far surpasses that

 

[freezamite]

are you high?!! KAioken 20x goku is not even as strong as 50% frieza and Ssj far surpasses that

Look, I'm trying to be as respectful as I can here considering you don't even bother to read what the other posters write.

You know pretty well that my stance on the subject is that Freezer's 50% of power before being hit by the Genkidama and having received a beating from SSJ Goku can't be compared to Freezer's 50% after that happened, so I won't even discuss that here nor I won't post the interview where Toriyama puts SSJ Namek Goku at the same level as KKx10 Namek Goku (this is not the place to discuss this).

You just have to understand that since this is MY theory it obviously uses MY numbers. And since this theory is the one that better explains the changes between timelines and it's causes, I'll stick with it until I find another one that's better.

 

[ahill1]

and I do have to believe that the fight against Mecha and Cold was identical to the one in TL3 with Cell already being there?

We can't know because that was an unseen timeline, not even mentioned in the manga. But we know that Cell there didn't change Freeza coming to the Earth, just like Freeza went in the main timeline. But it probably didn't considering Freeza was killed in a very similar fashion considering the panel. I think Trunks and Cell's interferences will change things, but it won't change EVERYTHING. We know that Trunks going to the past and altering things did change many things (like the androids' strength, the apparition of two androids firstly and so on), but it didn't change things like Vegeta and Bulma having Trunks. So, I can only think that, according to my theory, those warriors' interference will change some things, but it won't change every single thing, curiously mainly the ones that were needed to the plot. So, like Trunks' birth (which wasn't changed even with Cell and Trunks' interference... and we know that Trunks was also born in a timeline without those latter two interference), I think Freeza's defeat by Trunks' hand would be something not changed, even though it COULD be changed.

 

[ahill1]

Regarding your theory, two things that I'd like to clarify:


Firstly, you think that Gero went all out with #17 and #18 in future Trunks' timeline (as well as in the timeline the Trunks from Cell's timeline created) because Gero got aware of how strong a SSJ was. The thing is that Goku also used the Kaioken x20 in the battle against Cold, which is, according to you, 2x stronger than a SSJ... so, Kaioken x20 Goku is 2x stronger than Goku SSJ [post Yardrat], right? Then, if Gero still released his androids, whose strength is the same as the ones from Trunks' timeline, isn't that basically admitting that Gero had confidence in the future androids having the strength to deal with a power 2x above that of Mecha saga Goku SSJ and Trunks SSJ? That doesn't match with you thinking that Trunks SSJ could fight against them on par... unless you think that the Trunks from the androids saga got like 2x stronger compared to the Trunks from the Mecha saga?

Besides, you said the Trunks from Cell's timeline went to another timeline for the same reasons the future Trunks we all know of did... but the Trunks there didn't fight the androids, Goku did instead... and three years later, since the androids were also weakened, the Z warriors were able to defeat them. And then Trunks got to know more about the Senzu Beans and brought them to his timeline so the androids' advantages wouldn't be made apparent, right.? But by the way you said, it seems like the fight between Trunks and the androids was implied to be a tough one, with now Trunks having to make use of the Senzu Beans to defeat them... wouldn't be more sensible if Trunks brought a Z warrior from the main's timeline (like Goku or Vegeta) to fight alongside him, considering hiw cautious Trunks is? We see that he generally wants to take the more cautious route (e.g not attacking the androids until Goku was healed and not wanting to let Cell absorb #18 and destroy him right there, besides his SSJG2 form [and still his SSJG3, which would be wayyy above his SSJG2] being way above Semi Cell])... so if the androids could still give him problems considering all he got on his side now are the Senzus, bringing Goku there to fight alongside him would be more sensible and fit better Trunks' personality. In the main timeline, Trunks even stated that he wished to create a timeline free of the androids and bring Goku alongside him if finding their weakness didn't work. He didn't exactly find their weakness, only something that would help him fight against them, but still in a tough battle.


Besides, you think that the Trunks from Cell's timeline went to another timeline (just like in my first theory), right? If then, why did that Trunks set his time machine to 1 year before Freeza's defeat? Shouldn't that Trunks have set his time machine to a time where the androids from the timeline he altered (2nd timeline in your theory) were already destroyed? Why set it to a time the androids weren't even created yet? To create yet another timeline free of the androids? It doesn't make sense to me. Much like the future Trunks we know, I think the Trunks from the main timeline should have set his time machine to the present of the timeline he altered in order to tell everyone from that timeline that he successfully killed the androids... so, since Cell stated he just pressed the buttom when he entered in the time machine and didn't do anything, it'd make more sense for him to end up in the timeline the androids were already killed and not in a time where they were yet to be created. What do you think about it?

 

[freezamite]

and I do have to believe that the fight against Mecha and Cold was identical to the one in TL3 with Cell already being there?

We can't know because that was an unseen timeline, not even mentioned in the manga. But we know that Cell there didn't change Freeza coming to the Earth, just like Freeza went in the main timeline. But it probably didn't considering Freeza was killed in a very similar fashion considering the panel. I think Trunks and Cell's interferences will change things, but it won't change EVERYTHING. We know that Trunks going to the past and altering things did change many things (like the androids' strength, the apparition of two androids firstly and so on), but it didn't change things like Vegeta and Bulma having Trunks. So, I can only think that, according to my theory, those warriors' interference will change some things, but it won't change every single thing, curiously mainly the ones that were needed to the plot. So, like Trunks' birth (which wasn't changed even with Cell and Trunks' interference... and we know that Trunks was also born in a timeline without those latter two interference), I think Freeza's defeat by Trunks' hand would be something not changed, even though it COULD be changed.

Not everything has to change, but the differences between TL2 and TL3 are a consequence of Cell's arrival, and they affect basically nearly everything Trunks does from then onwards... except for the Mecha fight that has to be identical to the very detail (because if those aren't simply recicled panels and they were meant to have a meaning behind, then that has to be it), which is a bit inconsistent for my tastes.
Why does everything else change but the fight doesn't, what could Cell have done in order to do so?

Regarding your theory, two things that I'd like to clarify:


Firstly, you think that Gero went all out with #17 and #18 in future Trunks' timeline (as well as in the timeline the Trunks from Cell's timeline created) because Gero got aware of how strong a SSJ was. The thing is that Goku also used the Kaioken x20 in the battle against Cold, which is, according to you, 2x stronger than a SSJ... so, Kaioken x20 Goku is 2x stronger than Goku SSJ [post Yardrat], right? Then, if Gero still released his androids, whose strength is the same as the ones from Trunks' timeline, isn't that basically admitting that Gero had confidence in the future androids having the strength to deal with a power 2x above that of Mecha saga Goku SSJ and Trunks SSJ? That doesn't match with you thinking that Trunks SSJ could fight against them on par... unless you think that the Trunks from the androids saga got like 2x stronger compared to the Trunks from the Mecha saga?

Guero's measurement devices weren't that accurate (I mean, he was legit surprised that SSJ Goku could surpass N19 and the fight wasn't even close, and this was him measuring a Goku that was just in front of him, not fighting at hundreds or thousands of kilometers far from him), and we don't know if they had a limit in the energy they could measure like the scoutters had.
Remember that Guero was expecting Goku to be at Saiyan saga levels of power, or just a tad above that, so the gap between Guero's expectations and SSJ Goku is huge enough to justify him taking measures even if he couldn't quite grasp the true extent of Goku's new power.

Regarding the KKx20, it had to be used only for an instant and that could be anywhere in the planet, so Guero not noticing it or noticing it but being unable to grasp it's true power isn't something that strange.

Lastly, another explanation could be that if Guero had noticed the z-warriors fight and took measures because of it, another measure could perfectly be to send the spy robots to see what was happening and learning how strong the z-warriors (namely Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan) had become at Namek. The difference between A19 and A20 compared to A17 and A18 was huge enough to justify him sending the stronger foes even to fight the z-warriors (even if Vegeta never reached the SSJ form, I doubt Piccolo would be much weaker than he ended being in TL3).

Besides, you said the Trunks from Cell's timeline went to another timeline for the same reasons the future Trunks we all know of did... but the Trunks there didn't fight the androids, Goku did instead... and three years later, since the androids were also weakened, the Z warriors were able to defeat them. And then Trunks got to know more about the Senzu Beans and brought them to his timeline so the androids' advantages wouldn't be made apparent, right.? But by the way you said, it seems like the fight between Trunks and the androids was implied to be a tough one, with now Trunks having to make use of the Senzu Beans to defeat them... wouldn't be more sensible if Trunks brought a Z warrior from the main's timeline (like Goku or Vegeta) to fight alongside him, considering hiw cautious Trunks is?

When you say Trunks didn't fight the androids... do you mean Mecha Freezer and Cold (in other words is this a typo)?
If that's what you meant, then think about Trunk's main reason to come to the past. Yes, he wanted to learn something that could allow him to defeat the Androids, but his main reason to do what he did was to create a TL where the Androids wouldn't kill everyone.

Future Trunks world had already been decimated, I remember him saying the total human population was just 50.000 humans, so precisely because he was cautious I don't think he asked for anybody's help, since anyone dying or the machine being destroyed while in there (so, that z-warriors not being able to help fighting the present TL androids) would complicate things a lot in TL2 and this would be even worse for Trunks.

But since TL2 is a mistery it's not impossible to argue that he brought someone. That being said, that someone had to die before Cell killed Trunks, since Cell doesn't comment on killing anyone else and I doubt that would be hidden if it was in Toriyama's head.
I think that Trunks came back to TL1 with just the senzus.

Besides, you think that the Trunks from Cell's timeline went to another timeline (just like in my first theory), right? If then, why did that Trunks set his time machine to 1 year before Freeza's defeat? Shouldn't that Trunks have set his time machine to a time where the androids from the timeline he altered (2nd timeline in your theory) were already destroyed? Why set it to a time the androids weren't even created yet? To create yet another timeline free of the androids? It doesn't make sense to me.

Or Cell simply killed/attacked Trunks while he was still occupied configuring the machine. I mean, Cell killed Trunks at the precise instant he was going to travel back to the past, so his sudden appearance/attack affecting the age where the machine ended is not that difficult to imagine (let's say you changed the year you wanted to travel to with a "up/down" pad, in other words, the machine starts at 0000 and you have to press button "up" until it reaches the age you want to travel to, but Cell appeared when Trunks still hadn't finished introducing the age he wanted to travel).

 

[ahill1]

Not everything has to change, but the differences between TL2 and TL3 are a consequence of Cell's arrival, and they affect basically nearly everything Trunks does from then onwards... except for the Mecha fight that has to be identical to the very detail (because if those aren't simply recicled panels and they were meant to have a meaning behind, then that has to be it), which is a bit inconsistent for my tastes.
Why does everything else change but the fight doesn't, what could Cell have done in order to do so?

It might be inconsistent for your tastes, but it doesn't make it innacurate. That's still presented in the manga, and Cell brought Trunks' cells right after talking about Mecha Freeza's defeat. Not that this latter matters too much, but I think it lends credence to the panel, I see it as Cell's statement specifying that they could get Trunks' cells when he killed Freeza. It's true that the Cell from Trunks' timeline also had data on Trunks when this latter didn't kill Mecha Freeza, but when he did get the data.

Also, if you insist, maybe the Mecha Freeza's fight wasn't nearly identical... it's true that the way Trunks killed him (slicing him in half) was identical to that of the main timeline, but maybe the fight happened in some minor different way. Maybe Cell traveling to the main timeline influenced Freeza's action a little and he decided to do like 10 push ups before facing Trunks... and that granted him power enough to give Trunks more of a challenge, but he ended up being killed anyway and in a similar fashion. Let's say Freeza fires the first blast, but that is strong enough to give Trunks more of a challenge... but he then bounces it back.... Freeza tries to get him with the same technique he used in the fight against Goku (that technique to which Goku escaped using super speed), Trunks escapes (but barely) and then cuts Freeza in a similar fashion...

Or, following your same line of thinking, let's say Trunks lasted a little more to appear before Freeza (distracted with some dead animals caused by Cell), but he is not late enough that Goku would be there, and then he gets Freeza's henchmens when they are already on their way to kill the androids, kills them and Goku sense this huge chi when he was already with his fingers on his head. So, some minor things could have changed with the way Freeza was killed staying the same. It isn't too much of a problem imo.

Also, like I said, some things also didn't change, like Trunks getting born 2 and a half years from the time Trunks appeared. Trunks saw how his influence ought to have changed things and it did change more things than he had previosuly imagined (we see that he initially thought that the only things that changed were the ones he had direct influence on [giving Goku the medicine and making him aware about the upcoming threat] like was highlighted in my post above)... yet some things like his birth got intact. So, in a timeline without either Trunks or Cell's interference (future Trunks' timeline and the 1st timeline [in my 1st theory]) we also have Trunks getting born 2 and a half years after Mecha Freeza's defeat... yet in a timeline with both Trunks and Cell's interference he was also born, as I had previsouly said. So, whilst things would be changed, I don't think everything has to be changed, and Freeza's defeat could be something that didn't change even with Cell altering that timeline... as was Trunks' birth. Or, like I had said, his death was kept the same, but the fight in itself might have changed a little.

May not be a satisfactory explanation to you, but I don't think such problem (that you yourself have already admitted isn't too damning to this POV, even more when you said it doesn't fit "YOUR tastes") is enough to treat that panel as Toriyama recycling the art and therefore as a mistake made by Toriyama. If you insist that your theory is better and that it might be Toriyama recycling the art, so be it, but there's no way you can set such thing down as a dogma.

Guero's measurement devices weren't that accurate (I mean, he was legit surprised that SSJ Goku could surpass N19 and the fight wasn't even close, and this was him measuring a Goku that was just in front of him, not fighting at hundreds or thousands of kilometers far from him), and we don't know if they had a limit in the energy they could measure like the scoutters had.
Remember that Guero was expecting Goku to be at Saiyan saga levels of power, or just a tad above that, so the gap between Guero's expectations and SSJ Goku is huge enough to justify him taking measures even if he couldn't quite grasp the true extent of Goku's new power.

Didn't you say he chose to send #17 and #18 instead of going with #19 and himself because the battle between Goku and Freeza was too high calliber? When Goku transformed into a ssj before #19 he was surprised since this power surpassed his estimations, but he was still pretty chill because he said that power was within manageable parameters and that his fat android could deal with that. But if Goku's battle against Freeza was enough that he decided to ditch out #17 and #18 from the get go, he logically should have accessed them at a higher battle power than the Goku ssj standing in front of #19. So, Gero's radar (or his way of measuring power, spy robot) should logically NOT have a limit at Goku's ssj sick power, otheriwise he wouldn't have taken the safest approach and awakened #19 and #20, since that'd be a power he could deal with (according to his imagination, at least)... do you get where I am coming from? If his radar had a limit and that limit was on Goku ssj sick's level (and he couldn't get a proper reading to anything too much above that), then why would he see the Kaioken x20 as a threat? He should have to get a feel towards that power, agreed? So his limit couldn't merely be at the SSJ's level of power used in the Androids saga (since you think Goku kkx20 is way above that) otherwise he also wouldn't get a reading towards Kkx20 and wouldn't feel the need to hit on hjs dangerous ace up sleeve, that he was trying to avoid at all costs in the main timeline.

Unless you think that Gero saw how Goku used ssj against Freeza --> hadn't seen that as a threat --> then saw how Goku used Kaioken x20 --> saw that his reading didn't change --> concluded the reading was maxed out at ssj because it'd logically** increase with Kkx20 --> decided to awaken #18 and #17 since he coildn't get a proper reading




That's the only way I can think of that you could get off the problems I displayed above.


** I don't agree at all that the Kkx20 is above the SSJs, but I will be considering such since I am analyzing your theory.


In a nuttshell, I am trying to say that Gero's radar shouldn't have a limit at SSJ Goku three years later if he knew he was screwed when seeing Kkx20 Goku and Cold, whom are stronger than that. If it had a limit, he wouldn't be able to know he had to call for #17 and #18 because such power would appear unreadable for him. Although yeah, you can use the explanation proposed above.

When you say Trunks didn't fight the androids... do you mean Mecha Freezer and Cold (in other words is this a typo)?

Yeah, it was a typo. Meant Freeza and Cold.

But since TL2 is a mistery it's not impossible to argue that he brought someone. That being said, that someone had to die before Cell killed Trunks, since Cell doesn't comment on killing anyone else and I doubt that would be hidden if it was in Toriyama's head.
I think that Trunks came back to TL1 with just the senzus.

Yeah, I agree that him bringing someone alongside him doesn't hurt your theory, it was just more on a takenote.
But I dunno, like I specified in my first theory I think Trunks ended up killing them with the remote control. In my 2nd theory, since it's possible Trunks was a MSSJ considering Vegeta was likely a ssj when giving birth to him like in the 1st timeline, it's possible there that Trunks was strong enough to kill them on his own --shrugs--. BTW, in my 2nd theory, Cell's timeline would be pretty similar to the 2nd timeline in your theory (the timeline created by Trunks from Cell's timeline)... in which everyone would be aware about the androids and Goku wouldn't have died from the disease... but then you said "even if Vegeta wasn't a ssj"...

even if Vegeta never reached the SSJ form, I doubt Piccolo would be much weaker than he ended being in TL3

So if you consider the possibility of Vegeta never being a ssj there, is it possible Trunks wasn't a MSSJ and a ssj since the 'beginning' in that timeline? Not that it matters too much though.

Or Cell simply killed/attacked Trunks while he was still occupied configuring the machine. I mean, Cell killed Trunks at the precise instant he was going to travel back to the past, so his sudden appearance/attack affecting the age where the machine ended is not that difficult to imagine (let's say you changed the year you wanted to travel to with a "up/down" pad, in other words, the machine starts at 0000 and you have to press button "up" until it reaches the age you want to travel to, but Cell appeared when Trunks still hadn't finished introducing the age he wanted to travel).

Spoiler

Yeah, reading again what was said it's possible. But why would the machine without the age introducced would end up right at the main timeline, one year before Freeza's arrival? Trunks hadn't pressed buttom "up" instead until it reaches the age you want it to reach, yet it ended up at the main timeline? That's why I think that Trunks wasn't traveling back in time to advise everyone that the androids were killed (like the future Trunks we know of did)... I think he wished to travel back simply to create a world free of the androids (like he mentioned in the time machine). That's why I think the Trunks from Cell's timeline never travelled to another timeline (at least in my 2nd theory, which I like more) and decided to do so for the first time for them to have a world where the Z warriros can live in peace. May not be worth noting since we don't exactly know how it's translated in the original, but in my Portuguese version of the manga, that's exactly what Piccolo stated after Cell stated he killed Trunks:

"Eu entendo. Trunks queria vir nos dizer como ele derrotou os androides de seu tempo"

"I see. Trunks wished to tell us how he was able to destroy the androids of his time"

In the Spanish version, Piccolo stated something like this as well:

Spoiler

By the way he is talking in those two versions (Trunks wished to tell us how he was able to defeat them) implies this method applied by Trunks was something unkown by the Z warriors, which wouldn't be the case if Trunks was merely traveling to tell them that everything went ok and that's it. I dunno what was said in the original, but those two versions fit my theory that Trunks from Cell's timeline never travelled to the past and would do so for the first time just to create a world free of them. And then Trunks managed to defeat the androids on his own, which can be explainable if he were a MSSJ and a ssj since the beginning.

Moreover, read this thread:
http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t2272525-did-future-cell/2.htm


metal4ever did some good point on the creations of the timeline, and according to his points (which make perfect sense), Cell travelled to the past of the timeline Trunks had splitted, hence in that timeline Trunks appeared to kill Mecha Freeza... since in the timeline Trunks from Cell's timeline supposedly altered (like I said, I don't necessarily go with it) Trunks appeared there to kill Mecha Freeza, Cell had to have travelled to the past of THAT timeline in order to there be a Trunks there doing the same thing... if Cell had travelled to the past of, let's say, his timeline, according to him, there wouldn't be a Trunks killing Mecha Freeza, BUT A GOKU. But, since I assume (rightfully so, since it has merit) that Freeza was killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline, CELL COULD HAVE TRAVELLED TO THE PAST OF HIS TIMELINE AND YET THERE WOULD BE A TRUNKS KILLING FREEZA (notice: I am not screaming, worked up kr anything, but it's that my 2nd theory works SO WELL with it). Then, the reasons I like my theory best:


--> It doesn't have to assume Toriyama was simply recycling that panel and can take that panel for what it is;
--> It explains how Trunks ended up in the main timeline... sure that one could use your explanation, but I happen to like mine better, specially that in the panel posted above in the Spanish version Cell states that Trunks settled his time to that timeline, which implies imo Trunks had already settled it and everything he should do is press the buttom
--> It fits in with the two translations displayed above... might not be too much worth noting since Herms didn't translate that tibit and VIZ states that in a slight different manner, although it's good to see how those two translations agree with this line of thinking.


I see that your theory might explain those details you highlighted, but I personally don't try too hard in giving them explanations considering Trunks is also pretty confused about it, don't know what happened and wonders if it has to do with Cell. Perfectly reasonable if you wish to go with that though, I haven't been trying to force my opinion upon you or anything like this. So, I know you still have an answer for all this and I will read it, but let's reach a compromisse and agree that both theories don't necessarily contradict anything and move on both with our own theories?