The Daizenshuu's explanation of the Cell timelines SUCKS

[freezamite]

It might be inconsistent for your tastes, but it doesn't make it innacurate. That's still presented in the manga, and Cell brought Trunks' cells right after talking about Mecha Freeza's defeat. Not that this latter matters too much, but I think it lends credence to the panel, I see it as Cell's statement specifying that they could get Trunks' cells when he killed Freeza. It's true that the Cell from Trunks' timeline also had data on Trunks when this latter didn't kill Mecha Freeza, but when he did get the data.

Well, I saw it more as Toriyama simply speaking of the strongest characters in the series in the chronological order they got killed/injured (when i'ts implied the robot took their cells), and mentioning Trunks because him not being included in Cell when he was one of the strongest may have seen as strange if there hadn't been a reason.

The thing is, if this image is taken at face value, then there's no discussion that the only valid explanation (at least the only one I've seen) is your theory number two.
If we take it as Toriyama recycling panels, then I stick with my theory as it's very close to your theory one but can explain much better why each change happened in the TLs.

Now, if you make me choose between recycled panel or one with a meaning, I lean towards it being recycled. Not because it fits my stance better, but because I think Toriyama's narrative points towards what I said.
All those details about Goku getting ill sooner, no senzus in the future, the instant that made Trunks act instead of Goku... I think those are too many hints given to be just pure coincidences or random sentences written by Tori, just to end up with a much worse narrative that obligates the reader to imagine and make sense of much much more things.

Also, if you insist, maybe the Mecha Freeza's fight wasn't nearly identical... it's true that the way Trunks killed him (slicing him in half) was identical to that of the main timeline, but maybe the fight happened in some minor different way. Maybe Cell traveling to the main timeline influenced Freeza's action a little and he decided to do like 10 push ups before facing Trunks... and that granted him power enough to give Trunks more of a challenge, but he ended up being killed anyway and in a similar fashion. Let's say Freeza fires the first blast, but that is strong enough to give Trunks more of a challenge... but he then bounces it back.... Freeza tries to get him with the same technique he used in the fight against Goku (that technique to which Goku escaped using super speed), Trunks escapes (but barely) and then cuts Freeza in a similar fashion...

It's not just Freezer, it's also Cold, and it's that they end exactly the same. I mean, Trunks could've killed Mecha with his sword, even slicing him in half... but slicing him in half in the exact same way that he did in TL3?
The same happens for Cold, it's not only that he still dies without transforming and with a hole in his chest. It's also that he falls in the exact same position, with an identical trail of blood behind.

If we want to give this drawing any more meaning than Toriyama recycling panels, and we assume there was a Future Trunks in Cell's timeline as well because of them, then we have to assume that the fight went in the exact same way because all we know was identical to the very detail.

Also, like I said, some things also didn't change, like Trunks getting born 2 and a half years from the time Trunks appeared. Trunks saw how his influence ought to have changed things and it did change more things than he had previosuly imagined (we see that he initially thought that the only things that changed were the ones he had direct influence on [giving Goku the medicine and making him aware about the upcoming threat] like was highlighted in my post above)... yet some things like his birth got intact. So, in a timeline without either Trunks or Cell's interference (future Trunks' timeline and the 1st timeline [in my 1st theory]) we also have Trunks getting born 2 and a half years after Mecha Freeza's defeat... yet in a timeline with both Trunks and Cell's interference he was also born, as I had previsouly said. So, whilst things would be changed, I don't think everything has to be changed, and Freeza's defeat could be something that didn't change even with Cell altering that timeline... as was Trunks' birth. Or, like I had said, his death was kept the same, but the fight in itself might have changed a little.

May not be a satisfactory explanation to you, but I don't think such problem (that you yourself have already admitted isn't too damning to this POV, even more when you said it doesn't fit "YOUR tastes") is enough to treat that panel as Toriyama recycling the art and therefore as a mistake made by Toriyama. If you insist that your theory is better and that it might be Toriyama recycling the art, so be it, but there's no way you can set such thing down as a dogma.

But why would some things be affected while others wouldn't? And not random things, but things central to the later changes in the TL.

In fact, doesn't this dialogue of Trunks confirm that it's the CHANGES made in the past what explain the changes made in the future? Trunks don't want anybody to know about their parents because he fears what would happen if they knew about him before he was conceived, in other words, he wasn't scared of his existence disappearing due to changes in the TL as long as those changes didn't affect him directly.

In the same way, he said he shouldn't have acted against Mecha and Cold because by doing it he made further changes to the TL (changes that weren't necessary at all).

If you look at it in perspective, there isn't much to discuss here besides if we take that panel at face value or not.
If we do, then it's your 2nd theory the one that's valid, even if I like it less for being inconsistent in what triggers the changes between timelines.
If we don't and assume it was just a recycled panel, then my theory is the one I pick for being the one that explains best the changes between timelines.

There's not much point in discussing between my theory and your 2nd theory because they are just too different, and if yours is true mine can't be (and vice-versa).
So the only debate is if that was just an (unfortunate) recicled panel, or if Toriyama wanted it to have a meaning behind.

Didn't you say he chose to send #17 and #18 instead of going with #19 and himself because the battle between Goku and Freeza was too high calliber? When Goku transformed into a ssj before #19 he was surprised since this power surpassed his estimations, but he was still pretty chill because he said that power was within manageable parameters and that his fat android could deal with that. But if Goku's battle against Freeza was enough that he decided to ditch out #17 and #18 from the get go, he logically should have accessed them at a higher battle power than the Goku ssj standing in front of #19. So, Gero's radar (or his way of measuring power, spy robot) should logically NOT have a limit at Goku's ssj sick power, otheriwise he wouldn't have taken the safest approach and awakened #19 and #20, since that'd be a power he could deal with (according to his imagination, at least)... do you get where I am coming from? If his radar had a limit and that limit was on Goku ssj sick's level (and he couldn't get a proper reading to anything too much above that), then why would he see the Kaioken x20 as a threat? He should have to get a feel towards that power, agreed? So his limit couldn't merely be at the SSJ's level of power used in the Androids saga (since you think Goku kkx20 is way above that) otherwise he also wouldn't get a reading towards Kkx20 and wouldn't feel the need to hit on hjs dangerous ace up sleeve, that he was trying to avoid at all costs in the main timeline.

Unless you think that Gero saw how Goku used ssj against Freeza --> hadn't seen that as a threat --> then saw how Goku used Kaioken x20 --> saw that his reading didn't change --> concluded the reading was maxed out at ssj because it'd logically** increase with Kkx20 --> decided to awaken #18 and #17 since he coildn't get a proper reading

1. That was ill Goku, who was already far from his 100% at that point (even Ten Shin noted how Goku had problems to breathe just after flying a bit).
2. You (nor me) can't know how would Guero react at that point in the series. In other words, was he already an android at that point? Did N19 already exist or not? In what state were 17 and 18? Furthermore, I'm assuming the fight somehow affected the lab, because future 17 and 18 were weaker than expected, so maybe there literally was no N19 in the future TL because Guero had invest time on repairing the lab.

In the end, those are details we don't know and that could very well affect Guero's actions. But what's sure is that those changes happened. Guero sent 17 and 18 instead of him going with 19, and those 17 and 18 were weaker.
How you explain those changes is up to you as long as the explanation is reasonable enough. The "problem" appears when those changes can't be explained in a reasonable way.

In a nuttshell, I am trying to say that Gero's radar shouldn't have a limit at SSJ Goku three years later if he knew he was screwed when seeing Kkx20 Goku and Cold, whom are stronger than that. If it had a limit, he wouldn't be able to know he had to call for #17 and #18 because such power would appear unreadable for him. Although yeah, you can use the explanation proposed above.

Even Piccolo and nonSSJ Vegeta+Gohan could've been more than a match for Guero and #19.

In my 2nd theory, since it's possible Trunks was a MSSJ considering Vegeta was likely a ssj when giving birth to him like in the 1st timeline, it's possible there that Trunks was strong enough to kill them on his own --shrugs--. BTW, in my 2nd theory, Cell's timeline would be pretty similar to the 2nd timeline in your theory (the timeline created by Trunks from Cell's timeline)... in which everyone would be aware about the androids and Goku wouldn't have died from the disease... but then you said "even if Vegeta wasn't a ssj"...

even if Vegeta never reached the SSJ form, I doubt Piccolo would be much weaker than he ended being in TL3

So if you consider the possibility of Vegeta never being a ssj there, is it possible Trunks wasn't a MSSJ and a ssj since the 'beginning' in that timeline? Not that it matters too much though.

Mmmm I don't think I explained myself well here. To make things easy:
1. Vegeta is a SSJ if there's a Future Trunks in the TL and Goku lives.
2. Vegeta wouldn't be a SSJ if Goku died.

In my TLs, the only TL where Vegeta could be SSJ (besides the one we see, which is TL3) is TL2, but the one I was talking about when I said that sentence you quoted is TL1 (the one that Trunks originally came from).

But why would the machine without the age introducced would end up right at the main timeline, one year before Freeza's arrival? Trunks hadn't pressed buttom "up" instead until it reaches the age you want it to reach, yet it ended up at the main timeline?

He ended in our timeline because he created our timeline, in other words, he couldn't end in any other timeline because he is the instigator of what we see.
Now, TL1 Trunks didn't know anything about Cell, so imagine he was already introducing the year he wanted to travel to, and Cell attacked him while he was doing it.
Considering the age Trunks travelled to in TL3, that Trunks probably had in mind to come at the same year he did in TL3 (in other words, when the androids would awake) to help everyone fight them, but while he was configuring the machine Cell killed him.

That's why I think that Trunks wasn't traveling back in time to advise everyone that the androids were killed (like the future Trunks we know of did)... I think he wished to travel back simply to create a world free of the androids (like he mentioned in the time machine). That's why I think the Trunks from Cell's timeline never travelled to another timeline (at least in my 2nd theory, which I like more) and decided to do so for the first time for them to have a world where the Z warriros can live in peace.

The problem with that explanation is that I don't see how travelling to 1 year before Mecha would help accomplish that. I mean, if Trunks wanted a world without the androids, why go back that extra year in time and not let's say 10 years more or 20 or just to the same age we see in TL3 (when Goku arrived from space)?

By the way he is talking in those two versions (Trunks wished to tell us how he was able to defeat them) implies this method applied by Trunks was something unkown by the Z warriors, which wouldn't be the case if Trunks was merely traveling to tell them that everything went ok and that's it.

May not be worth noting since we don't exactly know how it's translated in the original, but in my Portuguese version of the manga, that's exactly what Piccolo stated after Cell stated he killed Trunks:

"Eu entendo. Trunks queria vir nos dizer como ele derrotou os androides de seu tempo"

"I see. Trunks wished to tell us how he was able to destroy the androids of his time"

But if he destroyed the androids with the remote he found in the past, don't you think everyone in the past TL where Trunks had the remote made to him would already know the trick?

By the way he is talking in those two versions (Trunks wished to tell us how he was able to defeat them) implies this method applied by Trunks was something unkown by the Z warriors, which wouldn't be the case if Trunks was merely traveling to tell them that everything went ok and that's it. I dunno what was said in the original, but those two versions fit my theory that Trunks from Cell's timeline never travelled to the past and would do so for the first time just to create a world free of them. And then Trunks managed to defeat the androids on his own, which can be explainable if he were a MSSJ and a ssj since the beginning.

Mmmm I think you're contradicting yourself a bit in here if I'm understanding you well. I mean, if Trunks killed the androids because he was a MSSJ then there wasn't anything to explain besides him being the strongest, but then him travelling back just to tell everyone how strong he was (when the remote is implied according to you) wouldn't make much sense.

Moreover, read this thread:
http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t2272525-did-future-cell/2.htm


metal4ever did some good point on the creations of the timeline, and according to his points (which make perfect sense), Cell travelled to the past of the timeline Trunks had splitted, hence in that timeline Trunks appeared to kill Mecha Freeza... since in the timeline Trunks from Cell's timeline supposedly altered (like I said, I don't necessarily go with it) Trunks appeared there to kill Mecha Freeza, Cell had to have travelled to the past of THAT timeline in order to there be a Trunks there doing the same thing... if Cell had travelled to the past of, let's say, his timeline, according to him, there wouldn't be a Trunks killing Mecha Freeza, BUT A GOKU. But, since I assume (rightfully so, since it has merit) that Freeza was killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline, CELL COULD HAVE TRAVELLED TO THE PAST OF HIS TIMELINE AND YET THERE WOULD BE A TRUNKS KILLING FREEZA (notice: I am not screaming, worked up kr anything, but it's that my 2nd theory works SO WELL with it). Then, the reasons I like my theory best:
--> It doesn't have to assume Toriyama was simply recycling that panel and can take that panel for what it is;
--> It explains how Trunks ended up in the main timeline... sure that one could use your explanation, but I happen to like mine better, specially that in the panel posted above in the Spanish version Cell states that Trunks settled his time to that timeline, which implies imo Trunks had already settled it and everything he should do is press the buttom
--> It fits in with the two translations displayed above... might not be too much worth noting since Herms didn't translate that tibit and VIZ states that in a slight different manner, although it's good to see how those two translations agree with this line of thinking.

It all comes down to that panel. But the problem is... why did everything change so much because of Cell's existence, except for that fight that went down identically? (As I said, it's not just similar, it's identical to the very detail).
And with that theory, there are too many changes that can't be given a direct explanation as to why they happened. The plot becomes more inconsistent which I don't like, but as I've said, it all comes down to the panel.

You think it had a meaning? Then it's your T2 (mine and your T1 can't possibly explain it).
Was it just Toriyama recicling? I have a theory that fills all the gaps, even the changes between timelines.

 

[ahill1]

Well, I saw it more as Toriyama simply speaking of the strongest characters in the series in the chronological order they got killed/injured (when i'ts implied the robot took their cells), and mentioning Trunks because him not being included in Cell when he was one of the strongest may have seen as strange if there hadn't been a reason.

Yeah, but he was mentioned right after Toriyama talking about getting Freeza and Cold's cells. That implies to me that Cell had the opportunity to get Trunks' cells in the moment Freeza was killed, considering Trunks' cells are brought up right after Freeza being sliced in half.

Yeah, like I said in my first post that theory MIGHT be seen as Toriyama recycling the artwork, but I don't see a pretty valid reason for that necessarily being the case. Therefore, I'd also like to make a theory encompassing Trunks being the one to kill Mecha Freeza and Cold. That's pretty apparent in my first post, in which I did two theories... one considering Trunks was the one to kill Freeza in Cell's timeline and the other considering Goku was the one to accomplish such feat. I implied that in my first post, you either consider that panel as Toriyama merely recycling things or consider that as Toriyama indicating to us that Trunks was the one who killed Freeza in Cell's timeline.

Like I said, I don't stress too much over those points. Trunks himself is constantly asking what may have caused that many changes and later wonders if it might have to do with Cell... I personally prefer to go with Trunks and Cell just changing things in a way that the events would happen that way, their interference changing things in a way that the happenings would end up being what was presented in the manga.

We know that they way they were killed was the exact same way. Maybe the fight itself was bit different, with the way Trunks killed them being the same.

Or, like I said, the way Freeza and Cold were killed was the same... that is, Cell's interference didn't change the fight itself. I agree that Cell actually changed quite a lot of things, but the fight itself was one of the things that Cell's presence hadn't an influence on.

But why would some things be affected while others wouldn't? And not random things, but things central to the later changes in the TL.

There's no use asking me, because I can't possibly know. What we are presented is that some things ended up changing while others didn't. Why it happened that way? That I can't possibly know. It's something besides the point. We many times know some thing happened, but we don't know why it was made to be that way.

Like I said, I think some things would be changed, but not everything has to be changed. BTW, I don't know if you are making yourself very clearly (maybe you are contradicting yourself a little bit? I dunno) but weren't you at first wondering how would Cell change so much things if he didn't do so much that would justify things being changed? Then why are you now insisting that Cell should have changed the Freeza's fight?

But coming back to my earlier point, we know that Trunks was born 2 and a half years after the battle against Mecha Freeza... and that it wasn't changed even with Cell and Trunks' influence. So, if something like Trunks' birth (that would heavily affect the sequence of the manga, since without Trunks, the Boo saga would be a wild card, with no Gotenks and so on... besides many cool things about the saga being ignored) wasn't changed, then I don't see a reason for Cell to have necessarily influenced the Mecha Freeza's fight. He could have influenced it, but according to that panel the fight was apparently kept intact, so much like Trunks' birth I'd say the Freeza's fight was something that wasn't changed. And the way Trunks killed Freeza and Cold could not even be as important as Trunks' birth, that had direct influence in the Boo saga. So, some things like Trunks' birth (that happened to be the same even with the influence of two beings) was kept intact and that the way Freeza was dealt with was also implied to not have been altered in that panel, then I can reach the conclusion that some things are changed while others aren't.

If you look at it in perspective, there isn't much to discuss here besides if we take that panel at face value or not.
If we do, then it's your 2nd theory the one that's valid, even if I like it less for being inconsistent in what triggers the changes between timelines.

Looking at it that way, my 1st theory is also inconsistent because it doesn't explain in the minor details why the present androids ended up being way stronger, why Goku ended up getting sick earlier and so on. My 1st theory also recognizes that such explanations are a wild card and that there's not something concisely explaining those changes. My 1st theory also delves into the "Trunks and Cell showing up in the main timeline caused those things to be different" and doesn't try to get into specifics on why those things were different, because the story doesn't either. The story doesn't give us many hints as why those things were structured differently, with Trunks merely postulating that his come to the past, as well as Cell's later on changed the happenings in some way. So, if the story itself doesn't make a point in showing up why such things happened differently besides a "things were changed because I came to the future, and maybe because of that mysterious time machine", then I don't see the reason for me to take into account specifics things that would justify such. It may be cool that your theory may encompass those specifics that justify such changes, but a theory not containing it doesn't make it damning, incomplete or anything. The story itself isn't too specific in such regard.

The problem with that explanation is that I don't see how travelling to 1 year before Mecha would help accomplish that. I mean, if Trunks wanted a world without the androids, why go back that extra year in time and not let's say 10 years more or 20 or just to the same age we see in TL3 (when Goku arrived from space)?

Well, the year Trunks travels to is irrelevant, so long as it's before the Z warriors were killed. He wished to build a world with no androids, then travelling to a moment before the androids were built would also justify such. If he did defeat the androids with his own strength or if he he had the switch to stop them, then it doesn't matter to which era he travelled to, he'd be able to defeat them. The year coinciding with one year before Mecha Freeza's arrival maybe happened to be a plot-based, but so long as it's an age before the warriors would confront the androids, his goal of building a world free of them would be accomplished.

But if he destroyed the androids with the remote he found in the past, don't you think everyone in the past TL where Trunks had the remote made to him would already know the trick?

Only if Trunks had already travelled to the past once. I was assuming that was the first time Trunks would be doing a trip to the past, hence why he ended up in an era where the androids weren't activated, rather than in an era the androids were already destroyed, which would be probably the case if Trunks had travelled to another timeline and got there the blueprints or something.

Mmmm I think you're contradicting yourself a bit in here if I'm understanding you well. I mean, if Trunks killed the androids because he was a MSSJ then there wasn't anything to explain besides him being the strongest, but then him travelling back just to tell everyone how strong he was (when the remote is implied according to you) wouldn't make much sense.

Hmm, I see. But well, Piccolo was the one who told that, so the way Trunks killed the androids of his time would still be unknown to him. Maybe Piccolo doesn't exactly know how Trunks killed them and if Piccolo thinks Trunks killed the androids with some thing besides his strength, then Trunks could have be going to the past to tell them the way to defeat the androids. Let's say Piccolo thinks Trunks killed them with the mergency suitch, then according to Piccolo's line of thinking Trunks might have be going to the past so he could tell them that the emergency switch was the way Trunks found out to defeat the androids. But yeah, it might be kind of a forced explanation since we don't know if Piccolo is aware about some emergency switch, since Trunks is the only one to state about the possibility of the androids having such weakness. But maybe if Trunks realized such, it stands a reason Piccolo would ponder the possibility of some thing like this as well.

But yeah, if Trunks killed them with strength alone, then there'd be nothing to say "how he was able to defeat the androids", since it wouldn't be a secret method or anything like this. I agree that I said it's possible that Trunks killed them with an emergency switch, but if we take that translation as some thing that was really said in the original as well, Piccolo may be thinking Trunks killed the androids with some thing besides strength.

You think it had a meaning? Then it's your T2 (mine and your T1 can't possibly explain it).
Was it just Toriyama recicling? I have a theory that fills all the gaps, even the changes between timelines.

Yeah, I agree pretty much. I'd like to ask a question. According to metal4ever, since in the timeline Cell travelled to there was also a Trunks killing a Cell, Cell had to be travelling to the past of the timeline Trunks [from Cell's timeline] created, right? So, let's assume for a moment that AT recycled that panel and that Freeza was killed by Goku in Cell's TL. Then, we'd have:

Cell's TL : Freeza was killed by Goku;

TL created by Trunks from the aforementioned TL : Freeza was killed by Trunks [maybe Goku, but Trunks was there ready for doing it];

Future Trunks' TL : Freeza was killed by Goku

Main TL : Freeza was killed by Trunks


So, if the Cell from the 1st TL had travelled to, let's say, the past of Cell's TL, there would be a Goku killing Freeza instead of Trunks, rigth? According to metal4ever, Cell travelled to the past of the splitted TL created by Trunks from Cell's timeline, hence why there's also a Trunks appearing to kill Freeza. Do you agree with it? I find it a pretty good explanation... but I wonder why would Cell travel to the past of the TL created by Trunks? How does that make sense? Was Trunks' time machine setted to travel to the past of the TL created by him? Like, what?

If the Trunks from the main had a time machine made by his mother and he decided to travel to, let's say moments before Mecha Freeza's defeat, he'd meet a Trunks about to confront Freeza... because there was a Trunks killing Freeza in this TL... but if the future Trunks [the one that fought in the CGs] travelled to the past of his TL -- like he did --, he wouldn't find a Trunks about to kill Mecha Freeza... why? Because in his TL Freeza was killed by Goku, and not him. So, the Cell from Cell's timeline would have to have travelled to the past of the TL created by Trunks, since in that TL there was also a Trunks who wished to kill Mecha Freeza (I am not saying 'killing Freeza cuz you think such act was performed by Goku)... and if he travelled to the past of his TL, he'd meet a Goku killing Freeza instead -- assuming that panel was AT recycling -- okay, pretty good... I only wish a explanation as for why Trunks' time machine was at that time set to travel to the past of the TL he altered. Sure, he might have yet to still finish setting some things... but it seems strange it'd be set to travel precisely to the past of the TL he altered.

 

[SIAD]

I just do not like the theory that Trunks killed Freezer and King Cold in the Cell Timeline. In the Cell Timeline, Maqui Gero told Android # 17 that Cell is stronger than them, so it is likely that Imperfect Cell (Initial)> Androids # 17 and # 18 (Temporary Line Cell) = Androids # 17 and # 18 (Temporary Line Future Trunks).

  Therefore, if Trunks had eliminated Freezer and King Col in the Cell Timeline, it would mean that Z Warriors would be as powerful as their Arc Android counterparts, Goku survived heart disease. Vegeta and Trunks would rival both Androids and Piccolo would be able to help overcome the difference of the Androids over the SSJs.

  Personally, I think that Cell got the Freezer and King Cold cells when Cell was reborn on the Main Timeline.