The Metamoran Multiplier

[kriss-]

Alright, let me take a crack at this, *rolls up sleeves*

While trying to finish my Gotenks Ssj Pre RoSaT topic (so close), I came across something interesting and believe it may give us an accurate range as to how large the Metamoran multiplier is. I'm going to disregard the Daizenshuu (for obvious reasons). Now:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: after Piccolo resigns from his and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”

Majin Vegeta Ssj2 > Teen Gohan Ssj > Dabura > Kaioshin > Piccolo

^ This is a chain that most people can agree with. (Don't even get me started on whether Gohan was a Ssj2 or Ssj, the artwork shows his hair as a Ssj and his aura is reminiscent of Super Saiyan and not Super Saiyan 2).

8. Potara [#BO3#POT]
Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P6.2-6
Context: Elder Kaioshin gives the Potara to Goku
Elder Kaioshin: “Of course. And what’s more, the effect is greater than with Fusion! This has been the trump card treasure of the Kaioshins since long ago.”

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.2-4
Context: right after Kaioshin and Kibito merge
Kaioshin: “Oooh! Am-amazing! This is amazing power! Hahaah! [ ] Goku! I can fight too like this! I’ll go with you!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Don’t get carried away! No matter how strong you’ve become, you were never anything special. I doubt you could fight Boo head-on; you’d just end up getting absorbed. So stay here.”

After Kibito & Kaioshin merged with the Potara, their strength wasn't even considered on par with Vegeta Ssj2; yet Kaioshin alone was considered a dimension above Piccolo, and because the Potara has greater affect than the Metamoran fusion, this means the Potara multiplier is less than 10x and the Metamoran multiplier is even below that.

Unless you have Piccolo under 1 billion by the Majin Boo Saga, it's a mathematical certainty that the Multipliers are far less than originally understood by the community.

Watcha think?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

After Kibito & Kaioshin merged with the Potara, their strength wasn't even considered on par with Vegeta Ssj2; yet Kaioshin alone was considered a dimension above Piccolo, and because the Potara has greater affect than the Metamoran fusion, this means the Potara multiplier is less than 10x and the Metamoran multiplier is even below that.

Unless you have Piccolo under 1 billion by the Majin Boo Saga, it's a mathematical certainty that the Multipliers are far less than originally understood by the community.

This word 'dimension' is debatable. It could mean God status or power level.

 

[kriss-]

In the world of Dragonball:

Chapter: 189, P2.5, P3.1-3
Context: discussing what will happen if Goku loses to Piccolo
Kuririn: “If it comes down to that, we can all gang up and manage something!”
Piccolo: “Kukkukku…You think that you’ll be able to manage something by ganging up on me? Don’t make me laugh! Even if there were a hundred of the likes of you, you’d still be no match. God included. I’m already in a completely different dimension than you!”

Chapter: 262 (DBZ 68), P2.5-6
Vegeta: “Heh heh heh… Pity your scouters were destroyed…or you’d see that I’ve increased my power beyond your imagination through real combat…”
Zarbon: “Kukkukkuh…You’re the one who doesn’t get it…Lord Freeza’s true power vastly surpasses that sort of dimension…”

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P9.5
Narrator: “Piccolo and the other two seemed paralyzed from their fear of Freeza, whose battle power was in a completely different dimension, and they couldn’t even move…”

Chapter: 300 (DBZ 106), P2.1-3
Context: after Vegeta calls Piccolo useless trash
Piccolo: “Sorry I’m such trash. But remember this…After I take care of Freeza, it will be your turn next…”
Kuririn: “It’s no use…No matter how much Piccolo may have trained at Lord Kaio’s, Freeza’s in an entirely different dimension…”

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P5.6
Context: when Goku shows up
Boo: “…What, did you plan on coming to save everyone? You idiot…Can’t you tell that I’m in a fundamentally different dimension than the Majin Boo from back then?”

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P12.6
Context: as Boo is about to blow up the planet
Tenshinhan: “Da…damn it…! Our di-dimensions are too different…! I can’t be of any use…!”

Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension

The terminology 'dimension' is used to refer to a degree of power. Herms verifies this in his translations, so lets not get started on those shenanigans

Back to topic!

IMO this verifies that under normal circumstances -this is excluding Goku & Vegeta's rivals boost, the Potara is somewhere along the lines of being a 10x multiplier boost and the Metamoran is below that.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I think the fusion multiplies the weakest PL, which is Kibito's in that case, otherwise, Kibitoshin would be above SSJ3 tier.

 

[kriss-]

I think the fusion multiplies the weakest PL, which is Kibito's in that case, otherwise, Kibitoshin would be above SSJ3 tier.

This particular argument is just a cop-out to try to power up the fusions.

During the entire introduction of the Potara, Kaioshin was in charge, instructing Kibito and being the one who 'should have known' about it and the benefits it provides. Old Kaioshin than instructs him to try his with Kibito and they do. Next Kibitoshin wants to help Goku against Bootenks but Old Kaioshin says no. The interesting thing that Old Kaioshin says is 'Don't get carried away, you (Kaioshin) were nothing special to begin with'. So he's obviously talking about Kaioshin. Hence; the Potara multiplies the power of the strongest fighter, whereas the Metamoran requires the stronger fighter to bring himself down to the lowers battle power.

The Potara is not mentioned to have such a handicap.

 

[Clearin]

I don't think fusion has a specific multiplier. It depends on the fusees powers. When Goku considers fusing with Mr Satan, he makes a point to say "It's no use if a power level of 1000 becomes 1001", yet if fusion was a set multiplier, Mr Satan fused with Goku would be a tiny bit over half the strength of a non-rival boosted Vegetto. Or to put it in extremely simple numbers:
Goku: 100
Vegeta: 100
Mr Satan: 1
Potara fusion: A + B * 10

Vegetto (no rival boost): 2000
Mr Gotan: 1001

While Goku was talking about Potara here, he only has experience with fusion dance, and knows that Potara is even greater than that, so if Potara would only do that, then the fusion dance can't be any better.

Also, where was it stated that Kibitoshin was weaker than SSj2 Vegeta?

 

[kriss-]

Fusion has to have a specific multiplier. Especially if you follow the idea that Goku could predict Gotenks would be 'so and so' strong.

Under normal conditions, the Potara multiplier is around 10x. But Goku fusing with Vegeta wasn't normal at all; fusing with Gohan, now that would of surmised a powerful warrior under, even under normal conditions. Roughly 5x+ the power of Boohan. Fusing with Hercule? He would of been hilariously weaker and barely stronger than Goku Ssj3 even as a Super Saiyan.

However, Goku fusing with Vegeta wasn't performed under normal conditions; hence, they received such a tremendous power-up from being rivals.

The Metamoran is even below the normal multiplier of the Potara.

If Kibitoshin isn't weaker than Vegeta, he would have been considered useful against Kid Boo. Old Kaioshin & Kibitoshin never stopped Vegeta from going to fight Kid Boo. Because they didn't believe that he was fodder, whereas Kibitoshin stopped himself from going -after having a history with Kid Boo et cetera, because he knew he was fodder.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

(A + B) * 10

A = B

 

[kriss-]

(A + B) * 10

A = B

What?!

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

In the world of Dragonball:

Chapter: 189, P2.5, P3.1-3
Context: discussing what will happen if Goku loses to Piccolo
Kuririn: “If it comes down to that, we can all gang up and manage something!”
Piccolo: “Kukkukku…You think that you’ll be able to manage something by ganging up on me? Don’t make me laugh! Even if there were a hundred of the likes of you, you’d still be no match. God included. I’m already in a completely different dimension than you!”

Chapter: 262 (DBZ 68), P2.5-6
Vegeta: “Heh heh heh… Pity your scouters were destroyed…or you’d see that I’ve increased my power beyond your imagination through real combat…”
Zarbon: “Kukkukkuh…You’re the one who doesn’t get it…Lord Freeza’s true power vastly surpasses that sort of dimension…”

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P9.5
Narrator: “Piccolo and the other two seemed paralyzed from their fear of Freeza, whose battle power was in a completely different dimension, and they couldn’t even move…”

Chapter: 300 (DBZ 106), P2.1-3
Context: after Vegeta calls Piccolo useless trash
Piccolo: “Sorry I’m such trash. But remember this…After I take care of Freeza, it will be your turn next…”
Kuririn: “It’s no use…No matter how much Piccolo may have trained at Lord Kaio’s, Freeza’s in an entirely different dimension…”

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P5.6
Context: when Goku shows up
Boo: “…What, did you plan on coming to save everyone? You idiot…Can’t you tell that I’m in a fundamentally different dimension than the Majin Boo from back then?”

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P12.6
Context: as Boo is about to blow up the planet
Tenshinhan: “Da…damn it…! Our di-dimensions are too different…! I can’t be of any use…!”

Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension

The terminology 'dimension' is used to refer to a degree of power. Herms verifies this in his translations, so lets not get started on those shenanigans

Back to topic!

IMO this verifies that under normal circumstances -this is excluding Goku & Vegeta's rivals boost, the Potara is somewhere along the lines of being a 10x multiplier boost and the Metamoran is below that.

I can agree with that but Kaioshin cannot be stronger by Piccolo since his feats are weak and we got Piccolo's feats put's him SSJ Goku CG 50%.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I think the fusion multiplies the weakest PL, which is Kibito's in that case, otherwise, Kibitoshin would be above SSJ3 tier.

This particular argument is just a cop-out to try to power up the fusions.

During the entire introduction of the Potara, Kaioshin was in charge, instructing Kibito and being the one who 'should have known' about it and the benefits it provides. Old Kaioshin than instructs him to try his with Kibito and they do. Next Kibitoshin wants to help Goku against Bootenks but Old Kaioshin says no. The interesting thing that Old Kaioshin says is 'Don't get carried away, you (Kaioshin) were nothing special to begin with'. So he's obviously talking about Kaioshin. Hence; the Potara multiplies the power of the strongest fighter, whereas the Metamoran requires the stronger fighter to bring himself down to the lowers battle power.

The Potara is not mentioned to have such a handicap.

Goku states his fusion with Hercules would probably make him weaker, which implies it multiplies the weakest PL. Furthermore, it makes more
sense that way.

 

[kriss-]

I think the fusion multiplies the weakest PL, which is Kibito's in that case, otherwise, Kibitoshin would be above SSJ3 tier.

This particular argument is just a cop-out to try to power up the fusions.

During the entire introduction of the Potara, Kaioshin was in charge, instructing Kibito and being the one who 'should have known' about it and the benefits it provides. Old Kaioshin than instructs him to try his with Kibito and they do. Next Kibitoshin wants to help Goku against Bootenks but Old Kaioshin says no. The interesting thing that Old Kaioshin says is 'Don't get carried away, you (Kaioshin) were nothing special to begin with'. So he's obviously talking about Kaioshin. Hence; the Potara multiplies the power of the strongest fighter, whereas the Metamoran requires the stronger fighter to bring himself down to the lowers battle power.

The Potara is not mentioned to have such a handicap.

Goku states his fusion with Hercules would probably make him weaker, which implies it multiplies the weakest PL. Furthermore, it makes more
sense that way.

Goku was wondering if it would. He doesn't have any experience with the Potara so it's a farcry for you to ascertain that.

which implies it multiplies the weakest PL

I already debunked this above.

Old Kai continued to talk as though he was talking to Kaioshin. Clearly it multiplies the more significant battle power.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

I think the fusion multiplies the weakest PL, which is Kibito's in that case, otherwise, Kibitoshin would be above SSJ3 tier.

This particular argument is just a cop-out to try to power up the fusions.

During the entire introduction of the Potara, Kaioshin was in charge, instructing Kibito and being the one who 'should have known' about it and the benefits it provides. Old Kaioshin than instructs him to try his with Kibito and they do. Next Kibitoshin wants to help Goku against Bootenks but Old Kaioshin says no. The interesting thing that Old Kaioshin says is 'Don't get carried away, you (Kaioshin) were nothing special to begin with'. So he's obviously talking about Kaioshin. Hence; the Potara multiplies the power of the strongest fighter, whereas the Metamoran requires the stronger fighter to bring himself down to the lowers battle power.

The Potara is not mentioned to have such a handicap.

Goku states his fusion with Hercules would probably make him weaker, which implies it multiplies the weakest PL. Furthermore, it makes more
sense that way.

Goku also said Mr. Satan would increase his PL from 1000 to 1001 so there's likely other factors he was worried about (like Mr. Satan's lack of knowledge on ki and normal human weaknesses perhaps).

 

[kriss-]

I would like to take this opportunity to say that the Elder Kaioshin only said the effect of the Potara was greater than with Fusion, but not enormously greater. With the evidence I've surmised it really seems like the gaps and multipliers in the Majin Boo Saga -at least according to the standard norm, which follows Gotenks being within a dozen, to hundreds of times stronger than Goku, are horrible inaccurate to say the least.

Again, that is just my personal opinion based off several threads I've made with supporting evidence.

I keep an open mind and am in no way trying to belittle anyone.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

If we go by the fusion multiplying the stronger PL, we have to either make Kibitoshin ridiculously strong or give the fusion a very small multiplier and
make Base Gotenks pre ridiculously weak; i agree Base Gotenks pre doesn't have to be above SSJ2 level, but he has to have some credit, otherwise
it doesn't make sense either. Old Kai coul be referring to both Kaioshin and Kibito when he said ''you weren't so strong to begin with''.

 

[kriss-]

If we go by the fusion multiplying the stronger PL, we have to either make Kibitoshin ridiculously strong or give the fusion a very small multiplier

The implication is there. Nothing implies the multiplier builds off of the smaller power level, and Old Kai continued to talk as though he was talking to Kaioshin. Not to mention that the Metamoran builds off an equal power level -the Potara doesn't suffer from that flaw, but the Potara builds off the smaller one? When the entire introduction of the Potara is to make it greater than the Metamoran? What?! It really sounds like you're reaching to make things fit in regards to how it suits you best, rather than taking the information that we have at hand and changing your perspective accordingly.

Also, you are making subjective assumptions and setting rules as to how high the multiplier HAS to be to fit with YOUR personal canon. The entire point of debating is to hear the others arguments and keep an open mind that is subject to change. However, if you're willing to disregard that, I might as well ask 'why are you here?'.

Old Kai coul be referring to both Kaioshin and Kibito when he said ''you weren't so strong to begin with''.

He said 'you', not 'you two', or 'you guys'; that's an assumption on your part. I'm building the foundation for my logic based off the evidence at hand.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Potara can multiply the weak PL and still be better than Dance by having a higher multiplier.
The kids raise from being individually at most on par with Eighteen to Base Gotenks pre being at the very least above SSJ Goku. This is a HUGE
multiplier. If Potara multiplies Kaioshin's PL by that much, Kibitoshin is above SSJ2s, unless you have Kaioshin really weak. Personally, i'm not
against him being weaker than Puipui or even just strong enough to one shot Freeza; you're the one who said he's above Piccolo.

 

[kriss-]

Potara can multiply the weak PL and still be better than Dance by having a higher multiplier.
The kids raise from being individually at most on par with Eighteen to Base Gotenks pre being at the very least above SSJ Goku. This is a HUGE
multiplier. If Potara multiplies Kaioshin's PL by that much, Kibitoshin is above SSJ2s, unless you have Kaioshin really weak. Personally, i'm not
against him being weaker than Puipui or even just strong enough to one shot Freeza; you're the one who said he's above Piccolo.

Finally! I can use my counters from my thread here: http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3629

Argument
a) Gotenks Base Pre-RoSaT survived Majin Boo, Vegeta didn't; therefore he has to be around Super Saiyan 2 power.

Counter-Argument
There are countless scenarios where a weaker fighter survives a stronger fighter, but it doesn't mean they are stronger than anybody else. Some examples include Hercule fighting Perfect Cell & Kid Boo. Vegeta in his Ssj2 & Base form being mercilessly assaulted by Kid Boo -who is not known to hold back power. Kaioshin surviving Boo. Surviving a fight doesn't account for anything.

Kid Boo > Majin Vegeta Ssj2 =/= Vegeta Ssj2 > Kibitoshin > Teen Gohan Ssj > Dabura > Kaioshin

That chain is a valid fact. Once again you are making subjective assumptions by saying Gotenks has to be so and so strong. Once you realize that if you ignore this way of thinking, you'll won't be burdened by bias or the common norm; which itself is a common misconception.

All evidence points to the Potara multiplying the higher power level because Old Kai was talking to Kaioshin before the merged and continued to address him after the merge. The Potara was also mostly Kaioshin anyways, this leads me to conclude that it multiplies and benefits from the stronger fighter the most; that and Kaioshin is held to higher authority than Kibito, so it's only logical that it would affect Kaioshin more and not Kibito, as a means to not alter his position in the Universe.

However, if you wish to ignore all that to power up your fusion multiplier than whatever suits your needs. Just be aware that it doesn't make cents.

 

[Six Trails]

Why exactly would it make cents? Do people get paid for posting on forums?

 

[kriss-]

Why exactly would it make cents? Do people get paid for posting on forums?

To be fare, I was just saiyan what I thought on the matter.