The problems on how Power VS Skill is handled.

Keedounan

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As you've probably figured out by now, Power has been the deciding factor for at least 90% of the fights in Dragon Ball Z. The fights that are actually won by the weaker fighter can only be counted on one hand.

In Super, we can notice that they've tried to fix it, more often than not by exploiting a particular gimmick that makes it difficult to win by sheer power alone. Botamo can tank damage far higher than his real power would suggest, Hit can skip ahead of time, Zamasu (manga) can paralyze people stronger than him AND is immortal etc. On the protagonists' side, more often than not, they'll outperform stronger characters just by displaying their skills. For example, Base Goku outperformed Vegeta Blue by analyzing how Hit's technique works. In fact, this was the reason why the kids were left behind in Anime.

The problem is basically everything that represents Power in DB. With very few exceptions, being more powerful means stronger, faster, tougher...basically a much better physical condition all around. Not a single physical aspect is ignored. That means if you have a more powerful ki than your opponent...you've pretty much outclassed him in every single one physical aspect possible. That's why skill rarely mattered in DBZ: it doesn't matter how skilled you are. It will only get you so far against someone who is hundreds of times better than you (physically speaking) in everything. While DBS tried to fix it, the way Power works hasn't changed, so it only looks like they had to make the stronger fighter randomly slow or weak enough, temporarily or not, for the skilled one to actually manage something.

One cannot simply establish Power as being the one thing above all else, pretend that Skill alone can make a difference (especially if the gap was ridiculous), then just expect everyone to accept it. The writers basically wrote themselves into a corner by establishing Power in that way in Z. So in Super, they were simply forced to create inconsistencies, because Power simply gave too many advantages. If Power simply raised Strength, and you had to do different kinds of training to raise the other specific aspects, I think it would have been easier to handle, with all fighters having a specific advantage, thus the winner isn't predictable simply thanks to a A > B > C logic. Some would be strong at the cost of speed, others would be fast at the cost of strength, others would be able to dish out without being able to take it and vice versa, some would be better at close range than long range and vice versa, the rest would be more or less balanced (no particular advantage, no particular weakness).

This is, for example, why I think Hit VS Dyspo was kind of interesting. Hit was stronger and more skilled...but he still had trouble because Dyspo was faster and could predict Hit's Time-Skip, thus stop it before he could even use it (makes more sense than Base Goku vs Hit, btw). But since his strength doesn't match his speed, Hit can take the hits long enough to adapt to his speed like he did with Goku in U6 arc, though he still couldn't take the edge. Then he bluffed Dyspo to negate his speed advantage.

Nothing amazing, but if the fights were more like this instead of Power > All, I think the relevance of skill would have been more believable...and far more consistent.
 

Fantastische Hure

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I think DB-Super tried too hard to deviate and fit in with the current land-scape of anime/manga. Power isn't the end all be all anymore for a-lot of them (One-Piece), so they tried to change DragonBall to that as-well and they failed. They couldn't change it. It was already to the point of no return so instead of trying to clumsily change it, they could have just worked with what they had, but you know...
 

Pocket-Gog~

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2kewl4u said:
I think DB-Super tried too hard to deviate and fit in with the current land-scape of anime/manga. Power isn't the end all be all anymore for a-lot of them (One-Piece), so they tried to change DragonBall to that as-well and they failed. They couldn't change it. It was already to the point of no return so instead of trying to clumsily change it, they could have just worked with what they had, but you know...

I say it could've worked if they went with a new cast, Goku, Vegeta, etc, are beyond the point of no return. But at that point, you may as well read and watch other Shonen.
 

Keedounan

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Pocket-Gog~ said:
2kewl4u said:
I think DB-Super tried too hard to deviate and fit in with the current land-scape of anime/manga. Power isn't the end all be all anymore for a-lot of them (One-Piece), so they tried to change DragonBall to that as-well and they failed. They couldn't change it. It was already to the point of no return so instead of trying to clumsily change it, they could have just worked with what they had, but you know...

I say it could've worked if they went with a new cast, Goku, Vegeta, etc, are beyond the point of no return. But at that point, you may as well read and watch other Shonen.


The thing is...even with a new cast, Ki was already well established in the universe. With the exception of the artificial humans, everyone in DB has ki, even at a low amount. That means they couldn't escape its rules. Even artificial humans simply have an unnatural version of the ki, with the only differences being that it cannot be detected and cannot run out.

The only solution to make Skill even remotely relevant would be to change how Ki works (power-wise), which is not an option anymore. So yeah, if you one wants to read/watch a fighting Shonen that isn't all about strength, Dragon Ball is certainly not the right one.
 

Let's Go Fearless!

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You're right, which is why I enjoyed ToP so much, a lot of fighters focused on their skills rather than power. It's exactly how Tien and Roshi managed to stay longer and Krillin could do the same thing if he wasn't careless. You can see Gohan and Piccolo focusing more on combo and strategy a lot in their fight as well.

But like you said, Z told us that power alone matters and skills won't help you that much.
 

Fantastische Hure

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Keedounan said:
Pocket-Gog~ said:
2kewl4u said:
I think DB-Super tried too hard to deviate and fit in with the current land-scape of anime/manga. Power isn't the end all be all anymore for a-lot of them (One-Piece), so they tried to change DragonBall to that as-well and they failed. They couldn't change it. It was already to the point of no return so instead of trying to clumsily change it, they could have just worked with what they had, but you know...

I say it could've worked if they went with a new cast, Goku, Vegeta, etc, are beyond the point of no return. But at that point, you may as well read and watch other Shonen.


The thing is...even with a new cast, Ki was already well established in the universe. With the exception of the artificial humans, everyone in DB has ki, even at a low amount. That means they couldn't escape its rules. Even artificial humans simply have an unnatural version of the ki, with the only differences being that it cannot be detected and cannot run out.

The only solution to make Skill even remotely relevant would be to change how Ki works (power-wise), which is not an option anymore. So yeah, if you one wants to read/watch a fighting Shonen that isn't all about strength, Dragon Ball is certainly not the right one.
Yeah, that's it. They screwed themselves, but instead of working with what they have, they took the nonsensical route of trying to change the established ways of the world.
 

Keedounan

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I'm curious to know what [mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] thinks about it.
 

Captain Cadaver

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The Power VS Skill scenarios would indeed have been a lot more believable if this element had been prioritised more in Z, or at least gave some characters more exploitable weaknesses or personality flaws. Aside from having not succumbed to power creep, even the minor fights in Part 1 were far better than any fight after the Saiyan Arc because skill was always a somewhat relevant factor such as characters in the 21st TB relying on analytical tactics (Kuririn using panties against Jackie Chun, Roshi seeing Goku's stubby legs made his reach poor) and even when power became the completely decisive factor in the Piccolo Daimao Arc, that was excusable due to it being the first time an individual on a global threat presented the idea of having to reach a completely new level and the inability to counter him through any other means worked in the arcs favour due to not becoming an overused route. It was also more excusable when characters were putting a fair bit of martial arts skill and good choreography into their movements rather than the spamming of huge Ki attacks that most of Z consisted of.

Unfortunately, the most we get of tactics or skill beyond having heavily broken abilities like Boo's moveset we get to see from the Freeza Arc and onwards would be Vegeta putting sand in Zarbon's eyes and Gero's attempt to absorb energy. There was Goku's underwater Kamehameha against Freeza, but that was meaningless when he and Freeza were both holding back. Even when Super tries to make skills more relevant, it doesn't help that the only way they can do so is by bringing in such broken abilities as time manipulation or immortality and the only way of countering them is by raising your battle power to a level beyond them.
 
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