Time to stop using numbers?

[Future Warrior]

What if we stop using battle powers to gauge how strong a character is and instead go by feats and statements exclusively? Although we shouldn't completely ignore them, considering it's a benchmark on which character is more powerful than the other. For example, Dodoria is a 20,000 compared to Vegeta's 18,000 which may be a small gap, but in reality it would be Dodoria >> Vegeta. I don't think AT was thinking of gaps when making those numbers, and was only a way for the reader to know who was stronger than the other. Maybe we should start using chains instead. What do you think?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Good ideia. On this way we don't have to asspull insane numbers and multipliers.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

but this won't end well with the PL Purists.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

but this won't end well with the PL Purists.

But the Chain purists will born

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I don't have a problem with using numbers as a way of saying A > B >> C or something similar, though being ocd about power gaps is obviously a fallacy. If Toriyama wanted it to be a concise way of gauging each character from the very start of the series, the numbers given would obviously be different due to many Part 1 statements. Battle Powers were clearly there to act just a simplified power chain and means for foes to overestimate the main characters.

Going by chains is obviously a better route, though a simple number chart for comparing characters is also acceptable. It's only when you have people going "Goku must be at least 1.41xPix as strong as his opponent to tank that kind of attack and needs at least a 500/square routex multiplier to cover the gap against the next one after his transformation!!" where the whole reliance on battle power gaps becomes an obviously asinine affair, in which people care more about numbers and headcannon than what's shown and stated.

 

[Future Warrior]

I don't have a problem with using numbers as a way of saying A > B >> C or something similar, though being ocd about power gaps is obviously a fallacy. If Toriyama wanted it to be a concise way of gauging each character from the very start of the series, the numbers given would obviously be different due to many Part 1 statements. Battle Powers were clearly there to act just a simplified power chain and means for foes to overestimate the main characters.

Going by chains is obviously a better route, though a simple number chart for comparing characters is also acceptable. It's only when you have people going "Goku must be at least 1.41xPix as strong as his opponent to tank that kind of attack and needs at least a 500/square routex multiplier to cover the gap against the next one after his transformation!!" where the whole reliance on battle power gaps becomes an obviously asinine affair, in which people care more about numbers and headcannon than what's shown and stated.

I agree with this. Dodoria and Zarbon are implied to be ≥ 22,000 too, yet look how they fared against Vegeta's 24,000 figure.

 

[ahill1]

I don't have a problem with using numbers as a way of saying A > B >> C or something similar, though being ocd about power gaps is obviously a fallacy. If Toriyama wanted it to be a concise way of gauging each character from the very start of the series, the numbers given would obviously be different due to many Part 1 statements. Battle Powers were clearly there to act just a simplified power chain and means for foes to overestimate the main characters.

Going by chains is obviously a better route, though a simple number chart for comparing characters is also acceptable. It's only when you have people going "Goku must be at least 1.41xPix as strong as his opponent to tank that kind of attack and needs at least a 500/square routex multiplier to cover the gap against the next one after his transformation!!" where the whole reliance on battle power gaps becomes an obviously asinine affair, in which people care more about numbers and headcannon than what's shown and stated.

I don't hink power gaps were inconsistents aside from the obvious "Scouter numbers contradicting part 1". Could you give examples?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

There's also Dodoria and Zarbon being ~22k and getting rekt by a 24k Vegeta.

We don't have anywhere to run with this ones, though. That's how showed us how K3 Goku would stand against those two.

 

[Spiral-Force]

As long as the numbers fit in with what's suggested and consistent in the actual story, then it's OK; just don't go overboard. I prefer to use symbols like "<" in a chain to avoid overcomplicating things.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I don't hink power gaps were inconsistents aside from the obvious "Scouter numbers contradicting part 1". Could you give examples?

- Kamehameha is implied to be a ~2.22x amp against Raditz, yet is never treat with such relevance in other situations.
- Vegeta VS Cui/Dodoria implies it takes less than a 1.3x gap to oneshot an opponent, yet characters have been shown to take solid hits with even larger gaps (eg. Tenshinhan VS Saibaiman, Kaioken X3 Goku VS Vegeta, Tired Base Goku VS Oozaru Vegeta, Vegeta VS Monster Zarbon round 1). Whilst some cases did have characters with naturally great durability, it's harder to defend them as just being tough than when there wasn't a numerical quantification of their power differences, and if they're exempt from such a supposed "rule", it's evident this rule doesn't exist in the first place.

Most glaring of all, the system doesn't correlate with any kind of real world energy measurements. Whilst it's obvious Ki is measured far differently than real world systems, such speaks for itself in saying mathmatical comparatives to real world systems just don't work, beyond Kaioken multiplying all stats. For example, in terms of real world energy values, the difference between the minimum of most destructive plateaus (eg. Town and City, City and Island, Island and Country, etc.) is usually about 1000x, yet by Battle Power logic, the difference between the City Busting of Piccolo Daimao and Nappa's casual Country Busting is about 15x (and that's going by the flawed Daiz reading of Daimao at 260), whereas the difference between Country Busting and Planet Busting if treating Vegeta's Gyarikku Ho as the bare minimum of that is about 6x. If you don't treat Piccolo's Moon Bust as an outlier, you have the gap between City and Moon level being about 100 points of Battle Power. If gaps were in any way consistent in terms of how they scaled to such tiers (which assuming gaps are consistent, should be so, even if using a different scale), you'd probably end up with 1st form Freeza being some Solar System buster by general gap maths, but clearly, that isn't the case.

Vegeta said it best. "We Saiyans can't be measured by mere numbers".

 

[Future Warrior]

If ahill doesn't have a retort I'll stop making battle powers forever.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I like the Tier-Lists. Keeps it neat and gives you an idea, without being all that vague.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

What if we stop using battle powers to gauge how strong a character is and instead go by feats and statements exclusively? Although we shouldn't completely ignore them, considering it's a benchmark on which character is more powerful than the other. For example, Dodoria is a 20,000 compared to Vegeta's 18,000 which may be a small gap, but in reality it would be Dodoria >> Vegeta. I don't think AT was thinking of gaps when making those numbers, and was only a way for the reader to know who was stronger than the other. Maybe we should start using chains instead. What do you think?

No, that's too smart. Rather see the fools try to make sense of it all.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

I don't hink power gaps were inconsistents aside from the obvious "Scouter numbers contradicting part 1". Could you give examples?

- Kamehameha is implied to be a ~2.22x amp against Raditz, yet is never treat with such relevance in other situations.
- Vegeta VS Cui/Dodoria implies it takes less than a 1.3x gap to oneshot an opponent, yet characters have been shown to take solid hits with even larger gaps (eg. Tenshinhan VS Saibaiman, Kaioken X3 Goku VS Vegeta, Tired Base Goku VS Oozaru Vegeta, Vegeta VS Monster Zarbon round 1). Whilst some cases did have characters with naturally great durability, it's harder to defend them as just being tough than when there wasn't a numerical quantification of their power differences, and if they're exempt from such a supposed "rule", it's evident this rule doesn't exist in the first place.

Most glaring of all, the system doesn't correlate with any kind of real world energy measurements. Whilst it's obvious Ki is measured far differently than real world systems, such speaks for itself in saying mathmatical comparatives to real world systems just don't work, beyond Kaioken multiplying all stats. For example, in terms of real world energy values, the difference between the minimum of most destructive plateaus (eg. Town and City, City and Island, Island and Country, etc.) is usually about 1000x, yet by Battle Power logic, the difference between the City Busting of Piccolo Daimao and Nappa's casual Country Busting is about 15x (and that's going by the flawed Daiz reading of Daimao at 260), whereas the difference between Country Busting and Planet Busting if treating Vegeta's Gyarikku Ho as the bare minimum of that is about 6x. If you don't treat Piccolo's Moon Bust as an outlier, you have the gap between City and Moon level being about 100 points of Battle Power. If gaps were in any way consistent in terms of how they scaled to such tiers (which assuming gaps are consistent, should be so, even if using a different scale), you'd probably end up with 1st form Freeza being some Solar System buster by general gap maths, but clearly, that isn't the case.

Vegeta said it best. "We Saiyans can't be measured by mere numbers".

:9000 :what

 

[withheldforprivacy]

What if we stop using battle powers to gauge how strong a character is and instead go by feats and statements exclusively? Although we shouldn't completely ignore them, considering it's a benchmark on which character is more powerful than the other. For example, Dodoria is a 20,000 compared to Vegeta's 18,000 which may be a small gap, but in reality it would be Dodoria >> Vegeta. I don't think AT was thinking of gaps when making those numbers, and was only a way for the reader to know who was stronger than the other. Maybe we should start using chains instead. What do you think?

No.

 

[ahill1]

I don't hink power gaps were inconsistents aside from the obvious "Scouter numbers contradicting part 1". Could you give examples?

- Kamehameha is implied to be a ~2.22x amp against Raditz, yet is never treat with such relevance in other situations.
- Vegeta VS Cui/Dodoria implies it takes less than a 1.3x gap to oneshot an opponent, yet characters have been shown to take solid hits with even larger gaps (eg. Tenshinhan VS Saibaiman, Kaioken X3 Goku VS Vegeta, Tired Base Goku VS Oozaru Vegeta, Vegeta VS Monster Zarbon round 1). Whilst some cases did have characters with naturally great durability, it's harder to defend them as just being tough than when there wasn't a numerical quantification of their power differences, and if they're exempt from such a supposed "rule", it's evident this rule doesn't exist in the first place.

Most glaring of all, the system doesn't correlate with any kind of real world energy measurements. Whilst it's obvious Ki is measured far differently than real world systems, such speaks for itself in saying mathmatical comparatives to real world systems just don't work, beyond Kaioken multiplying all stats. For example, in terms of real world energy values, the difference between the minimum of most destructive plateaus (eg. Town and City, City and Island, Island and Country, etc.) is usually about 1000x, yet by Battle Power logic, the difference between the City Busting of Piccolo Daimao and Nappa's casual Country Busting is about 15x (and that's going by the flawed Daiz reading of Daimao at 260), whereas the difference between Country Busting and Planet Busting if treating Vegeta's Gyarikku Ho as the bare minimum of that is about 6x. If you don't treat Piccolo's Moon Bust as an outlier, you have the gap between City and Moon level being about 100 points of Battle Power. If gaps were in any way consistent in terms of how they scaled to such tiers (which assuming gaps are consistent, should be so, even if using a different scale), you'd probably end up with 1st form Freeza being some Solar System buster by general gap maths, but clearly, that isn't the case.

Vegeta said it best. "We Saiyans can't be measured by mere numbers".

Fair enough, although "one shot gaps" was something I have already noticed for a while as being rather inconsistent. We also have a tired base Goku withstanding a hit from an enraged 50% Freeza.

But some tanking feats on the Cell arc makes it really temptive to have some fights as bigger gaps than others.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Some of you don't really know the toughness of the fighters and and when they're holding back.