- Joined
- Aug 21, 2016
- Messages
- 878
- Age
- 26
@Natasha Romanoff
It's not my job to prove Jiren was using full effort. You are the one who made the claim that Jiren was holding back in effort. It's up to you prove it. I already addressed that Vegeta's statement of "You were fighting harder against Kakarot!" was made to provoke Jiren. That coincides with Whis' statement where he clearly stated that Vegeta was trying to achieve Ultra Instinct in the same vein as Goku did. By clashing with powerful energy, he would also break his limits just as Goku did.
What we do know is that Vegeta claimed that Jiren's current energy was the strongest that he had encountered.
Vegeta's fists were pounding against Jiren's body as he made this claim. His claim clearly refers to Jiren's energy in its current state. Vegeta never encountered Jiren's full power. No one ever calls Jiren's power into question as Vegeta watches him drive him back. In fact, everyone believed Vegeta had countered him when he successfully evaded Jiren's fastest attack similar to UI Omen Goku. During Episode 109, Vegeta had an outside perspective of the situation. Kaioken x20 Blue Goku saw the attack coming in plain sight yet Goku and Vegeta didn't have the speed to react to it. This isn't the case of Frieza/Hit vs. Dyspo. Dyspo's attack was described as linear and predictable. Evading Jiren's attack was directly compared to Ultra Instinct.
Jiren never suppressed his effort against Hit. This is another convenient assumption you are making. This is what we are told.
There was no suppression here. Android 17 is a defensive player which means he can withstand blows far beyond his paygrade. In fact, the blow directed at Blue Evolved Vegeta was one that Android 17 took directly. He still recovered from it but the narrative made it clear that he was out of submission for a notable period of time.
The only questionable thing here would be Android 17 trading blows for a while but this is an anime trend in general. There is no narrative significance behind Android 17's feats and he's immediately forced on the defensive. Vegeta's feats hold narrative weight, are consistent, and are constantly being emphasized. There is no comparison. Aside from that, Jiren "suppressing" himself in one instance doesn't prove he suppressed himself in other instances. It would be the equivalent of claiming that since a person has been wrong before, he must be wrong in other instances where his intelligence is called into question. That's not a fair argument to be making.
Here is what we do know. Jiren uses a higher power against Vegeta than he does against Hit. You believe Jiren was sandbagging against both of them. However, it takes Hit far longer to land a blow on Jiren than Vegeta does. On top of that, Hit never had to deal with Jiren's fastest attack. Jiren's standard attacks were enough to deal with Hit's Time Skip. In contrast, Vegeta evaded Jiren's fastest attack which was compared to Ultra Instinct. The only thing I'm doing here is establishing a lower bound for Vegeta's improvement and he's at least above Kaioken x20 Blue Goku (109) by a wide margin.
It's not my job to prove Jiren was using full effort. You are the one who made the claim that Jiren was holding back in effort. It's up to you prove it. I already addressed that Vegeta's statement of "You were fighting harder against Kakarot!" was made to provoke Jiren. That coincides with Whis' statement where he clearly stated that Vegeta was trying to achieve Ultra Instinct in the same vein as Goku did. By clashing with powerful energy, he would also break his limits just as Goku did.
What we do know is that Vegeta claimed that Jiren's current energy was the strongest that he had encountered.
Vegeta's fists were pounding against Jiren's body as he made this claim. His claim clearly refers to Jiren's energy in its current state. Vegeta never encountered Jiren's full power. No one ever calls Jiren's power into question as Vegeta watches him drive him back. In fact, everyone believed Vegeta had countered him when he successfully evaded Jiren's fastest attack similar to UI Omen Goku. During Episode 109, Vegeta had an outside perspective of the situation. Kaioken x20 Blue Goku saw the attack coming in plain sight yet Goku and Vegeta didn't have the speed to react to it. This isn't the case of Frieza/Hit vs. Dyspo. Dyspo's attack was described as linear and predictable. Evading Jiren's attack was directly compared to Ultra Instinct.
Jiren never suppressed his effort against Hit. This is another convenient assumption you are making. This is what we are told.
There was no suppression here. Android 17 is a defensive player which means he can withstand blows far beyond his paygrade. In fact, the blow directed at Blue Evolved Vegeta was one that Android 17 took directly. He still recovered from it but the narrative made it clear that he was out of submission for a notable period of time.
The only questionable thing here would be Android 17 trading blows for a while but this is an anime trend in general. There is no narrative significance behind Android 17's feats and he's immediately forced on the defensive. Vegeta's feats hold narrative weight, are consistent, and are constantly being emphasized. There is no comparison. Aside from that, Jiren "suppressing" himself in one instance doesn't prove he suppressed himself in other instances. It would be the equivalent of claiming that since a person has been wrong before, he must be wrong in other instances where his intelligence is called into question. That's not a fair argument to be making.
Here is what we do know. Jiren uses a higher power against Vegeta than he does against Hit. You believe Jiren was sandbagging against both of them. However, it takes Hit far longer to land a blow on Jiren than Vegeta does. On top of that, Hit never had to deal with Jiren's fastest attack. Jiren's standard attacks were enough to deal with Hit's Time Skip. In contrast, Vegeta evaded Jiren's fastest attack which was compared to Ultra Instinct. The only thing I'm doing here is establishing a lower bound for Vegeta's improvement and he's at least above Kaioken x20 Blue Goku (109) by a wide margin.
