TOP SSJG Goku vs ROF Golden Freeza

[Natasha Romanoff]

I'm starting to think that I was always wrong in the idea of Goku getting over 10x stronger in between the Champa arc and the Hit rematch.. so I guess I gotta have to change my pl list. Although, the levels I did were based on the Daizenshuu and making a whole new list would take a lot of time.

Kaioken x10 Goku in the Champa arc was fully red while Kaioken Goku in the rest of the Hit fight wasn't:

Spoiler

Regardless. Who wins? With Freeza having no stamina issues and both fighting in the World of Void.

 

[SIAD]

It is said that Goku SSJR (Peak) was the most powerful mortal of the moment, even surpassing Goku SSJN Kaioken x10 (U6 Tournament). Later that Goku SSJR was greatly surpassed by Goku SSJB, Vegeta SSJB and Future Trunks SSJRage as they fought against Merged Zamasu.

I don't think there are any problems with Goku and Vegeta in the ToP being more than 50x more powerful than in the U6 Tournament.

Goku SSJG (ToP) should win.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I disagree with the idea of Goku & Vegeta surpassing Merged Zamasu, especially since Merged Zamasu is someone that doesn't try his best and nothing tell us Goku Black wouldn't be able to perform the same feats. He didn't even think much of SSJB Vegetto, so no reason to believe he ever got serious against non Fused saiyans.

Goku Black surpassed Kaioken x10 Goku from Champa arc? Possibly. But, there's no definitive evidence as the writer just states that he's the strongest in a group of the characters relevant to the plot which Kaioken Goku & Hit weren't.

 

[SIAD]

@Goku9001

 

[Goku9001]

I don't get the argument. Goku was never fully red against Toppo and Jiren either from what I recall. Regardless, I think Super Saiyan God Goku already surpassed RoF Golden Frieza. Goku had to have gotten over 10x stronger to surpass SSJR Goku Black who was the strongest mortal Gowasu had ever seen at the time. And, Goku would have to grow 10x stronger to go from matching Toppo using Kaioken x10 Blue to being able to match Toppo in just his regular Blue form.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I don't get the argument. Goku was never fully red against Toppo and Jiren either from what I recall.

Against Toppo it was just Regular Kaioken, and against Jiren he already mastered it while Kaioken x2 to x4 wasn't fully red (against Hit) while in the second half he no longer is completely red and the Kaioken was about to wore off. Weird to think if that was Kaioken x10 the whole time.

Regardless, I think Super Saiyan God Goku already surpassed RoF Golden Frieza. Goku had to have gotten over 10x stronger to surpass SSJR Goku Black who was the strongest mortal Gowasu had ever seen at the time. And, Goku would have to grow 10x stronger to go from matching Toppo using Kaioken x10 Blue to being able to match Toppo in just his regular Blue form.

Okay, accepting this premise as possible which has no support (Goku surpassing Goku Black somehow).

How does it affects anything regardless? Kaioken was unknown for Gowasu & Zamasu, so it just means Hit & SSJB Goku from early Champa arc are weaker than Goku Black which just by feats is plaussible. Base Toppo was never a match for Kaioken x10 Goku. Your position is very questionable.

 

[Goku9001]

Against Toppo it was just Regular Kaioken, and against Jiren he already mastered it while Kaioken x2 to x4 wasn't fully red (against Hit) while in the second half he no longer is completely red and the Kaioken was about to wore off. Weird to think if that was Kaioken x10 the whole time.

Okay, accepting this premise as possible which has no support (Goku surpassing Goku Black somehow).

How does it affects anything regardless? Kaioken was unknown for Gowasu & Zamasu, so it just means Hit & SSJB Goku from early Champa arc are weaker than Goku Black which just by feats is plaussible. Base Toppo was never a match for Kaioken x10 Goku. Your position is very questionable.

It's a weird argument in general because the only moment he's red is when he was battling Hit to create a hype moment leading up to the Kamehameha. I don't see anything indicative about it relating to power. That is your subtext that is purely speculative.

Gowasu clearly watched KKx10 Blue Goku's battle with Hit. There's absolutely no reason or implication that suggests he would have coincidentally stopped watching.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

It's a weird argument in general because the only moment he's red is when he was battling Hit to create a hype moment leading up to the Kamehameha. I don't see anything indicative about it relating to power. That is your subtext that is purely speculative.

That's an out of universe explanation that lead us nowhere, objectively Kaioken x2, x3 and x4 wasn't fully red while x10 was, which means that afterwards he was using either of those levels for the rest of the battle.

Goku said by himself that Kaioken x10 wouldn't last and he had to end quick. That's another reason as to why he stopped using Kaioken x10, as is too heavy for his body to resist it.

Gowasu clearly watched KKx10 Blue Goku's battle with Hit. There's absolutely no reason or implication that suggests he would have coincidentally stopped watching.

Problem is, that everything we've got is Gowasu watching SSJB Goku vs Hit and he ain't aware of the Kaioken neither is Zamasu. If you have objective evidence that tell us that he watched the whole fight your point may have a valid reason behind.

Also, how do you know whether it also refers to Goku Black's potential other than his displayed power? And what makes the premise of Goku surpassing Goku Black as something reasonable?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

IIRC the red skin comes and goes when Goku fights Hit and seems to be an artist decision. The red skin was also present in the original series in a very inconsistent way.

I think Golden Freeza wins though. First, Kaio-Ken is very conveniently ignored throughout the FT Saga, so I don’t think it was taken into account when talking about Black’s power. Second, Goku and Vegeta put up minimal resistance against Zamasu. Blasts aside, they don’t do anything I couldn’t see two Goku Blacks doing. Third, Hit doesn’t even try using Timeskip his rematch with Goku.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

IIRC the red skin comes and goes when Goku fights Hit and seems to be an artist decision. The red skin was also present in the original series in a very inconsistent way.

I think Golden Freeza wins though. First, Kaio-Ken is very conveniently ignored throughout the FT Saga, so I don’t think it was taken into account when talking about Black’s power. Second, Goku and Vegeta put up minimal resistance against Zamasu. Blasts aside, they don’t do anything I couldn’t see two Goku Blacks doing. Third, Hit doesn’t even try using Timeskip his rematch with Goku.

Actually, I can see that you analyze things properly, unlike many people in this forum.

 

[Goku9001]

We were given an explanation as to why the Kaioken was conveniently ignored. Kaioken combined with Blue forced Goku beyond his limits which meant it was something he had to refrain from using. The series acknowledges that Goku used Kaioken against Hit and has an entire episode revolving around Goku's usage of Kaioken prior to the Zamasu arc. To suggest that Toei conveniently scrapped away Kaioken would be ignorance.

The fact of the matter is that Gowasu was enticed by Goku's battle with Hit and was never shown to be interrupted while watching. Therefore, it's presumed that he watched the climax of their battle i.e KKx10 Blue Goku vs. Hit.

I would suggest going where the evidence takes you rather than inserting your own subtext. The fact that Kaioken was plotholed out of existence is not supported when we were blatantly told why he avoided using it.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@Goku9001

From what is meaningful to the conversation, Gowasu considered SSJB Goku vs Hit the climax of the fight when we all know that it was Kaioken x10, so no evidence to him knowing about Kaioken.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

We were given an explanation as to why the Kaioken was conveniently ignored. Kaioken combined with Blue forced Goku beyond his limits which meant it was something he had to refrain from using. The series acknowledges that Goku used Kaioken against Hit and has an entire episode revolving around Goku's usage of Kaioken prior to the Zamasu arc. To suggest that Toei conveniently scrapped away Kaioken would be ignorance.

The fact of the matter is that Gowasu was enticed by Goku's battle with Hit and was never shown to be interrupted while watching. Therefore, it's presumed that he watched the climax of their battle i.e KKx10 Blue Goku vs. Hit.

I would suggest going where the evidence takes you rather than inserting your own subtext. The fact that Kaioken was plotholed out of existence is not supported when we were blatantly told why he avoided using it.

That's just the in-universe reasoning for Kaio-Ken being ignored. The fact still stands: Kaio-Ken is off the table, and that means Black is the strongest. When Goku risks Kaio-Ken, he injures Merged Zamasu but injuries himself too in the process.

 

[Goku9001]

That's just the in-universe reasoning for Kaio-Ken being ignored. The fact still stands: Kaio-Ken is off the table, and that means Black is the strongest. When Goku risks Kaio-Ken, he injures Merged Zamasu but injuries himself too in the process.

That wouldn't pertain to Hit.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That wouldn't pertain to Hit.

But Hit is weaker than SSJB Goku. His improving timeksip would only trigger Black's Zenkais, so it's a tie at best.

 

[Goku9001]

But Hit is weaker than SSJB Goku. His improving timeksip would only trigger Black's Zenkais, so it's a tie at best.

It doesn't matter. Hit is still the strongest if his abilities enable him to compete with KKx10 Blue Goku.

And regardless of that, Gowasu was referring to Black's power exclusively when he made that claim because he was emphasizing how powerful Merged Zamasu had become thanks to Black being the strongest. With KKx10 Blue Goku and Hit in the picture, his power should enable him to beat them both.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It doesn't matter. Hit is still the strongest if his abilities enable him to compete with KKx10 Blue Goku.

And regardless of that, Gowasu was referring to Black's power exclusively when he made that claim because he was emphasizing how powerful Merged Zamasu had become thanks to Black being the strongest. With KKx10 Blue Goku and Hit in the picture, his power should enable him to beat them both.

First you say Hit's abilities make him the strongest, then you say it's exclusively about power at the time of the statement. Which one is it?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You know what? I think I'll agree with you. My DBS list is missing some bloat. It's weird to keep the power creep in the FT Saga at minimum when the ToP is right around the corner with the biggest hax of the series.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

The first character to surpass Kkx10 Goku and Hit was Merged Zamasu as per Vegeta saying he's the greatest ki he ever felt (with him we have evidence that actually saw and sensed the whole fight between Goku and Hit), then Vegetto was the only one who could put up a fight and actually surpass him.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

But Hit is weaker than SSJB Goku. His improving timeksip would only trigger Black's Zenkais, so it's a tie at best.

At the beginning he likely was, then he stomped Blue Goku without lefting him other option than to use Kaioken and managed to escape from a Kamehameha x10.