Toriyama's "Raditz is Upper-Level" comment

[Captain Cadaver]

So, Toriyama's comment on Raditz being an upper level warrior like Nappa made here is often treat as another mindless retcon similar to Boo and Babidi's origins. The question I ask here though would be is it really that dumb? There is some counter-evidence I thought of that may smooth over Toriyama's statement.

We must remember that Saiyans are classed based on their combat abilities at birth rather than being elevated or demoted through adulthood. The idea that Raditz was a mid class or even elite who simply never lived up to his standard wouldn't be so farfetched. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did the original manga ever explicitly refer to Raditz as a low-class warrior? As far as I recall, the only demeaning comments about Raditz revolved around him being weak rather than low class, which would be fitting with Toriyama's statement as him being called a weakling wouldn't be so befitting if his was the average power of a low class Saiyan. As far as I recall, the only comments about him being a low-class Saiyan came from extended material such as the Daizenshuu and video games.

That said, would you still say Toriyama's comment was a retcon, or does it fit well with what the manga alone presents? I personally prefer the idea of Raditz being low class as it shows a clear difference in tiers and progression in the arc of Low-Class Raditz -> Mid Class/Elite Nappa -> Super Elite Vegeta, but I don't have any major problem with this comment from Toriyama.

 

[SSJ2]

"Born as a lowest-level warrior, he lacks experience fighting to the death against strong opponents, and so his battle power is of the lowest level for a Saiyan." -Daizenshuu 7, Human Racial Dictionary

Not directly from Toriyama.

 

[Classic Adamas]

Raditz was so scared of being shot just once that he hax'd his hand to catch it. Meanwhile Goku in episode one of Dragon Ball takes like a whole clip from Bulma and survives completely uninjured.

Also, did Raditz manage to tie up Goku?

Goku (Dragon Ball) ~ Goku (Saiyan Arc) > Pterodactyl > Bulma's gun > Raditz.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

"Born as a lowest-level warrior, he lacks experience fighting to the death against strong opponents, and so his battle power is of the lowest level for a Saiyan." -Daizenshuu 7, Human Racial Dictionary

Not directly from Toriyama.

Yeah, hence why I mentioned the Daizenshuu amongst the extended material. As far as I remember, the manga never directly calls Raditz low-class.

Raditz was so scared of being shot just once that he hax'd his hand to catch it. Meanwhile Goku in episode one of Dragon Ball takes like a whole clip from Bulma and survives completely uninjured.

Also, did Raditz manage to tie up Goku?

Goku (Dragon Ball) ~ Goku (Saiyan Arc) > Pterodactyl > Bulma's gun > Raditz.

Meanwhile, Super Galu can't even avoid being scraped by a bullet, yet drunk Saiyameng can deflect them just as well as his uncle did.

BoDB Goku > Suppressed Chaditz > Chadhan >>> DBS Galu 2

 

[SSJ2]

My bad, completely missed that.

Chapter 197 (DBZ 3), P7.1-4
Raditz: “Adult warriors directly go off to planets inhabited by those with high battle powers, but for planets like this that are of a low level, babies like you are sent. Fortunately, this planet has a moon…Even on your own, in a few years you should have been more than enough to clean out all those in the way…If you’d only remembered your orders, that is!
*Goku doesn't understand Raditz's reference to the moon*
Raditz: "Don’t play dumb. It’s only when the moon draws a complete circle that we Saiyans can utilize our true powers, isn’t that right?!”

This is indirect, but Raditz only associates Goku with being a low level Saiyan who would be sent to a weak planet like Earth. The anime backs this up by showing Raditz leaving Planet Vegeta at an older age when Gali was sent to Earth as a child. I'd say it's possible that Raditz is a weaker middle class Saiyan. There's no way he should be considered upper level tho.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

There's no way he should be considered upper level tho.

When Toriyama said "Upper-level" it was in the context of referring to low-classes like Galu being sent as infiltration babies or non-combatant engineers and the like, so mid-class would count as "upper-level" in this context.

 

[SSJ2]

I just read the quote and it doesn't sound contradictory at all. Toriyama blatantly states that Vegeta was part of the same group as Nappa and Raditz, which clearly shows that he is using the term upper level broadly. It literally states that those who get sent away are lower level and those who train to become combatants are upper level. The manga quote I posted corroborates this. I don't see why there would be a problem here.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Me neither, though some tend to bring it up amongst Toriyama retcons, hence why I found it worth bringing up here when the argument for it being inconsistent isn't strong at all.

 

[SSJ2]

If he called Raditz a Super Elite there would be a problem lol.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The Chaditz is beyond super elite status .

 

[Future Warrior]

Modern material has him as an elite warrior for whatever reason like going on missions with Vegeta and Napa as a child, but he’s clearly supposed to have less status in the manga/anime. He shouldn’t have been that weak otherwise going through the same experiences as his comrades.

 

[Papasmurf]

Toriyama also said Nappa was a low class warrior before, while adding that there are just over a dozen (or was it 20?) mid-class warriors and that elites were just Vegeta and his dad. Clearly he flip-flopped while preparing the script for Broly or something, because he then came up with the idea of non-combative Saiyans like Beets whose power levels don't exceed 1000.

 

[SSJ2]

So if Bardock is considered lower class, why is Raditz upper level?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Saiyans' ranks are determined from birth rather than what power they gain in adulthood. Same reason Vegeta still constantly referred to Galu as a low class on Namek even when he'd far surpassed all prior elites at that point.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

Raditz is stronger than most of the Frieza force, making him among the universe's elite.

 

[SSJ2]

Saiyans' ranks are determined from birth rather than what power they gain in adulthood. Same reason Vegeta still constantly referred to Galu as a low class on Namek even when he'd far surpassed all prior elites at that point.

So what do you think the difference between low and high class is? Gohan's 710 was enough for Raditz to believe the scouter was wrong, so I'd assume that would be far above even upper class Saiyans. Galu at 2 was low enough for Bardock to be completely embarrassed.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It's impossible to say with how high a range there is between 2 and 710. Raditz didn't seem embarrassed at all by adult Galu's battle power and only saw him as a disgrace for his attitude, so it's most likely even elites aren't born with a battle power close to the 300 area (apart from maybe Vegeta considering he was treat as a prodigy above all Saiyans).