Tosh's Power Levels =p

[ahill1]

Incorrect.

If you read the Manga you'll clearly see Vegeta screaming or yelling, as he's throwing Boohan into the ground. This is a reason as to why your 'expressions' argument doesn't make sense and doesn't work. There are too many contradictory feats that show that it doesn't scale linearly.

*Vegetto. And that was when he was, like you said, throwing Boohan into the ground. Big difference. He was not struggling fighting with Boohan, but was exercising effort to accomplish his attack. Look at this:

Spoiler

Vegeta "reacted" to Cell's attack just like with Recoome. You gonna say now that the gap between Vegeta and Super Perfect Cell is not that massive? Don't be ridiculous.

Oh, and look at this too:

Spoiler

Vegeta just "reacted" to Chibi Boo's attack (see his !! ?). Gonna say now the gap between SSJ2 Vegeta and freacking Kid Boo is not that massive?

 

[kriss-]

Super Perfect Cell clearly didn't intend to one shot Vegeta otherwise he would have. Hence why Vegeta was able to react at his attack. Later on is when he planned to finish Vegeta and this is when Gohan is critically injured. So he held back to a degree that allowed Vegeta to track him and withstand an attack from him.

During Vegeta's bout' against Chibi Boo, Boo was clearly lollygagging and having fun as he was mercilessly beating up on Goku, Boo & Vegeta. Hence why Vegeta was able to react.

These two scenarios do not help your case because the larger context of both scenes can be explained by other means that fit in line with the characters that are directly involved.

*Vegetto. And that was when he was, like you said, throwing Boohan into the ground. Big difference. He was not struggling fighting with Boohan, but was exercising effort to accomplish his attack. Look at this:

It doesn't matter.

His 'facial expression' allow you to determine that the gap was close because he appeared to put effort into it. However, this is definitely not the case. Therefore facial expressions on their own do not discern accurate portrayals of how any particular fighter actually stacks up against another. This entire concept for your argument falls apart.

The Gero & Piccolo gap is still significantly larger than the gap between Vegeta and Recoome.

 

[ahill1]

Super Perfect Cell clearly didn't intend to one shot Vegeta otherwise he would have. Hence why Vegeta was able to react at his attack. Later on is when he planned to finish Vegeta and this is when Gohan is critically injured. So he held back to a degree that allowed Vegeta to track him and withstand an attack from him.

What? This is utter hore shit. Why did not he want to one-shot Vegeta? Anyway, it doesn't even matter, because Cell ("holding back on order to not one-shot Vegeta"LOL) was able to mess up him so badly he could not even evade from his next attack. But, according to your flawed logic, Vegeta should be somewhat close to this Super Perfect Cell holding back. Anyways, there's no proof SPC held back against Vegeta - sounds like you are speculating now.

During Vegeta's bout' against Chibi Boo, Boo was clearly lollygagging and having fun as he was mercilessly beating up on Goku, Boo & Vegeta. Hence why Vegeta was able to react.

And? Recoome was having fun with Vegeta too.

 

[kriss-]

What? This is utter hore shit. Why did not he want to one-shot Vegeta?

The gap between these two fighters is too significant for him to not want to one shot Vegeta unless he didn't intended to.

Additionally, you are twisting my words. I never said a fighter has to be ''close' in power in order to see another fighter. In one example, Vegeta was able to see Recoome's movements, in another example, Gero couldn't see Piccolo. Vegeta is closer (but not that close) to Recoome than Gero is to Piccolo. In numerous other scenarios, a fighter is unable to track another fighters movements unless there a massive gap between the two fighters.

As noted earlier, your argument that relies solely on 'expressions' is extremely faulty and debunked by my debating prowess. It by itself is not a reliable source to gauge the gaps between two fighters.

I am definitely not speculating, clearly Cell wasn't performing to his maximum threshold of power otherwise Vegeta wouldn't of reacted or survived the attack.

And? Recoome was having fun with Vegeta too.

Just stop.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

About my questions...
3. Piccolo cutting off Gero's arm was kinda amplified, as he implied right after that.
8. When the hell did Cell state to have increased his speed?
11. Wouldn't have Piccolo commented on all those increases and going back to his original power?

 

[kriss-]

3. Piccolo cutting off Gero's arm was kinda amplified, as he implied right after that.

How is it amplified? Piccolo used a Senzu bean and immediately attacked Gero.

8. When the hell did Cell state to have increased his speed?

Here is Cell's first increase of speed.
Chapter: 399 (DBZ 205), P14.4
Context: after circling behind Goku
Cell: “I’m confident in my speed too. Even if I can’t Teleport.”

Here is Cell's second increase of speed.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Perfect Cell (Real Speed) > Kid Gohan Mssj > Perfect Cell (Increased Speed) > Perfect Cell (Powered Up) >= Goku Mssj

11. Wouldn't have Piccolo commented on all those increases and going back to his original power?

What?! I've lost track of what we're talking about now.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

3. Right after cutting off the arm, he said about being able to amplify his ki into tremendous bursts.
8. How the hell is the ''confident in my speed'' a speed increase?
11. So, the Super Buu that showed up was weaker than the two Buus that fought each other and Piccolo didn't comment on that?

 

[kriss-]

3. Right after cutting off the arm, he said about being able to amplify his ki into tremendous bursts.

Gero thought he stole a-lot of his energy but Piccolo revealed that they can amplify their Chi, so the amount Gero stole was quite irrelevant.

8. How the hell is the ''confident in my speed'' a speed increase?

Cell before his speed increase:

Spoiler

Cell after his speed increase:

Spoiler

What a stomp!

11. So, the Super Buu that showed up was weaker than the two Buus that fought each other and Piccolo didn't comment on that?

Nah.

Depending on how your math works, his initial transformation can be stronger. For example:

Goku
-SSj3 40

Super Boo
-Initial 24
-Full Power 36

Gotenks
-SSj 24
-SSj3 36

Innocent Boo
-Full Power 24

Evil Boo
-Full Power 20

Good Boo
-Full Power 16

 

[ahill1]

The gap between these two fighters is too significant for him to not want to one shot Vegeta unless he didn't intended to.

WTF are you talking about? lol. Now, because Cell is that stronger than Vegeta he will not want to one-shot him? Nonsense. Anyway, you were already debunked. According to your logic, the gap between Piccolo and Gero should be larger than the gap between SPC (who did not hold back) and SSJ Vegeta and even you have not this.

But like I said, your logic was already proved to be flawed, but it's worthless to continue this discussion because, as already others pointed out, you'll never admit when you are clearly wrong, what is the case here.

My example is perfectly fine and "debunks" all your argument of "Vegeta not being too far away of Recoome because he "reacted" " at his movements.

Anyways, Vegeta only saw Recoome approaching at him, the same with Cell. It's not like he could see his movements like in the fight against true form Freeza.


Here Goku could "detect" Raditz too:

Spoiler

Still think your logic is not flawed?

 

[ahill1]

Oh, and you have #19 at 50% of SSJ sick Goku even though he could track his movements here too:

Spoiler

So, according to your logic, the gap between Gero and Piccolo should be bigger than #19 and sick Goku, even though you have #20 at 66% of Piccolo... lol, I'm the one here who must say you to stop.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

After Cell and Goku both powered up, Cell just sat there and gave Goku some free shots. That doesn't mean Cell increased his speed afterward.

 

[kriss-]

WTF are you talking about? lol. Now, because Cell is that stronger than Vegeta he will not want to one-shot him? Nonsense. Anyway, you were already debunked. According to your logic, the gap between Piccolo and Gero should be larger than the gap between SPC (who did not hold back) and SSJ Vegeta and even you have not this.

Incorrect.

Please don't say I was already debunked, because I wasn't. You are assuming things and putting words into my mouth and making up false dogma's to strength your case -which is already very weak to begin with.

Super Perfect Cell is so much more powerful than Vegeta that when he struck Vegeta, he obviously held back enough so Vegeta wouldn't die instantly. That's the only reason Vegeta was able to see him. Debunked.

Kid Boo enjoys humiliating his adversary's and it's shown when he purposely holds back against Good Boo and only fights with his legs and effortlessly blocks everything for the sake of enjoyment. So the Kid Boo argument is also Debunked.

Radditz was clearly toying with Goku & Vegeta. Debunked.

Piccolo was trying to harm Gero and attacked him with such speed that he was unable to detect his movements; therefore the gap is absolutely tremendous.

Here is the silly thing that you're doing. You're taking examples where characters can detect other characters and trying to ascertain that it's a display of a specific gap, when it isn't. Because in the larger context of the scenes, the characters held back and never wanted to one shot their opponents. However, you're trying to make a paradox out of my argument by arguing that Super Perfect Cell came at Vegeta at full power, when he clearly didn't.

Please recognize the errors of your ways and change your perspective accordingly.

 

[ahill1]

WTF are you talking about? lol. Now, because Cell is that stronger than Vegeta he will not want to one-shot him? Nonsense. Anyway, you were already debunked. According to your logic, the gap between Piccolo and Gero should be larger than the gap between SPC (who did not hold back) and SSJ Vegeta and even you have not this.

Incorrect.

Please don't say I was already debunked, because I wasn't. You are assuming things and putting words into my mouth and making up false dogma's to strength your case -which is already very weak to begin with.

Super Perfect Cell is so much more powerful than Vegeta that when he struck Vegeta, he obviously held back enough so Vegeta wouldn't die instantly. That's the only reason Vegeta was able to see him. Debunked.

Kid Boo enjoys humiliating his adversary's and it's shown when he purposely holds back against Good Boo and only fights with his legs and effortlessly blocks everything for the sake of enjoyment. So the Kid Boo argument is also Debunked.

Radditz was clearly toying with Goku & Vegeta. Debunked.

Piccolo was trying to harm Gero and attacked him with such speed that he was unable to detect his movements; therefore the gap is absolutely tremendous.

Here is the silly thing that you're doing. You're taking examples where characters can detect other characters and trying to ascertain that it's a display of a specific gap, when it isn't. Because in the larger context of the scenes, the characters held back and never wanted to one shot their opponents. However, you're trying to make a paradox out of my argument by arguing that Super Perfect Cell came at Vegeta at full power, when he clearly didn't.

Please recognize the errors of your ways and change your perspective accordingly.

Is not incorrect. To begin with, you are not even trying to make sense. And yes, you were already debunked and everybody knows it, but as many already pointed out, you'll never admit you are wrong.

There's no proof Super Perfect Cell held back against Vegeta... you can't prove it, because he did not. Even if he did (he didn't), his attack was able to mess up Vegeta so badly he could not even move. So the gap is tremendous, wheter you like it or not. Even so, Vegeta could "see" Perfect Cell approaching at him, so this is clearly a weak argument. - you lost.

Does.Not.Matter. I can easily say Recoome was not taking Vegeta seriously, as he was not.

Also does not matter, since Recoome was also toying with Vegeta.

The gap is not that big. I have it at 80-83%, as Piccolo was really putting effort into his attacks and was not toying with Gero like Recoome was with Vegeta.

Again, there's no proof Super Perfect Cell held back against Vegeta. But like I said, even if he did, the gap was still tremendous and Vegeta could "see" him. This proves nothing.

I don't have to recognize anything, since you are clearly the wrong here and taking arguments out of your ass. But like I said, you already lost this debate.

 

[kriss-]

s not incorrect. To begin with, you are not even trying to make sense. And yes, you were already debunked and everybody knows it, but as many already pointed out, you'll never admit you are wrong.

I don't think you debunked me.

There's no proof Super Perfect Cell held back against Vegeta... you can't prove it, because he did not. Even if he did (he didn't), his attack was able to mess up Vegeta so badly he could not even move. So the gap is tremendous, wheter you like it or not. Even so, Vegeta could "see" Perfect Cell approaching at him, so this is clearly a weak argument. - you lost.

Vegeta wasn't instantly killed by someone whose as much as 6x stronger than him. The only determination is that Cell held back as a means to not kill Vegeta just yet.

Actually, you've lost.

oes.Not.Matter. I can easily say Recoome was not taking Vegeta seriously, as he was not.

He wasn't.

Hence why Recoome was able to see him, but barely.

The gap is not that big. I have it at 80-83%, as Piccolo was really putting effort into his attacks and was not toying with Gero like Recoome was with Vegeta.

Insert fan made gaps here (<---->).

All you've proven is: Piccolo (Trying at full power) versus Gero Gap > Recoome (Not trying) versus Vegeta gap

Which contradicts nothing that I've been saying.

Again, there's no proof Super Perfect Cell held back against Vegeta. But like I said, even if he did, the gap was still tremendous and Vegeta could "see" him. This proves nothing.

If Cell went all out, Vegeta would have died, he didn't. Therefore, Cell held back and intended to kill Vegeta later. By holding back, Vegeta was able to see him.

I don't have to recognize anything, since you are clearly the wrong here and taking arguments out of your ass. But like I said, you already lost this debate.

It's easy to counter your arguments because they are based on a false pretense that Perfect Cell went all out against Vegeta, whereas the artwork and what happened implies otherwise.

 

[ahill1]

Vegeta wasn't instantly killed by someone whose as much as 6x stronger than him. The only determination is that Cell held back as a means to not kill Vegeta just yet.

This doesn't prove Cell held back though. There are a lot of examples of a character don't dying by someone way stronger than him, like Kuririn surviving to a kick form Perfect Cell, or the same Kuririn surviving a punch from freaking Goku base in DBS or Goku base surviving a hit from 50% Freeza.

He wasn't.

Yes, he was.


Vegeta: "I never... dreamed... the m...mighty Vegeta... would be treated... like a plaything...

Hence why Recoome was able to see him, but barely.

What are you babbling about at this point?

If Cell went all out, Vegeta would have died, he didn't. Therefore, Cell held back and intended to kill Vegeta later. By holding back, Vegeta was able to see him.

Like I said, this doesn't prove anything. Kuririn was able to survive a punch from base Goku (which is many times stronger than him). Goku base was able to survive a serious attack from 50% Freeza.

It's easy to counter your arguments because they are based on a false pretense that Perfect Cell went all out against Vegeta, whereas the artwork and what happened implies otherwise.

What do you mean by the artwork?

 

[ahill1]

Vegeta wasn't instantly killed by someone whose as much as 6x stronger than him. The only determination is that Cell held back as a means to not kill Vegeta just yet.

This doesn't prove Cell held back though. There are a lot of examples of a character don't dying by someone way stronger than him, like Kuririn surviving to a kick form Perfect Cell, or the same Kuririn surviving a punch from freaking Goku base in DBS or Goku base surviving a hit from 50% Freeza.

He wasn't.

Yes, he was.


Vegeta: "I never... dreamed... the m...mighty Vegeta... would be treated... like a plaything...

Hence why Recoome was able to see him, but barely.

What are you babbling about at this point?

If Cell went all out, Vegeta would have died, he didn't. Therefore, Cell held back and intended to kill Vegeta later. By holding back, Vegeta was able to see him.

Like I said, this doesn't prove anything. Kuririn was able to survive a punch from base Goku (which is many times stronger than him). Goku base was able to survive a serious attack from 50% Freeza.

It's easy to counter your arguments because they are based on a false pretense that Perfect Cell went all out against Vegeta, whereas the artwork and what happened implies otherwise.

What do you mean by the artwork?

 

[kriss-]

't prove Cell held back though. There are a lot of examples of a character don't dying by someone way stronger than him, like Kuririn surviving to a kick form Perfect Cell, or the same Kuririn surviving a punch from freaking Goku base in DBS or Goku base surviving a hit from 50% Freeza.

It does prove he held back, otherwise Vegeta would have been single shotted. All of those examples are self explanatory and actually prove that a character held back. None of those scenarios were examples of someone going all out.

It's a logical fallacy.

Yes, he was.


Vegeta: "I never... dreamed... the m...mighty Vegeta... would be treated... like a plaything...

All you've proven is:

"The Piccolo versus Dr.Gero Gap > Recoome versus Vegeta Gap"

Even if Recoome was playing around with Vegeta -which he was, it's still a smaller gap due to the feats displayed. If Recoome went all out, perhaps the gap would be larger, but he didn't so it's impossible to know.

So we're back to the Piccolo versus Dr.Gero gap being larger regardless.

Like I said, this doesn't prove anything. Kuririn was able to survive a punch from base Goku (which is many times stronger than him). Goku base was able to survive a serious attack from 50% Freeza.

Kruririn is able to feel peoples full power by being hit them. In no way does it discern he was hit with their full force, otherwise he would of died; therefore the only logical conclusion is that they held back.

Kuririn point debunked.
Frieza was clearly toying with Goku & Vegeta. Frieza pointed debunked.

 

[ahill1]

It does prove he held back, otherwise Vegeta would have been single shotted. All of those examples are self explanatory and actually prove that a character held back. None of those scenarios were examples of someone going all out.

No, it doesn't. Like I said, there are examples of a character many times weaker than the other not being single shotted. IIRC Goku even said to Kuririn he would not hold back. Perfect Cell, while suppressed, was still many times stronger than Kuririn [in fact, the gap was larger than SPC vs SSJ Vegeta]. Freeza 50% hit Goku base for real, as you can see here:

Spoiler

All you've proven is:

"The Piccolo versus Dr.Gero Gap > Recoome versus Vegeta Gap"

Even if Recoome was playing around with Vegeta -which he was, it's still a smaller gap due to the feats displayed. If Recoome went all out, perhaps the gap would be larger, but he didn't so it's impossible to know.

So we're back to the Piccolo versus Dr.Gero gap being larger regardless.

So why you said before Recoome did not hold back on Vegeta? And I didn't even walk in to the question of the Recoome vs Vegeta gap being >/=/< than Piccolo vs Gero gap.

Anyways, the fight doesn't prove Gero cannot see Piccolo at all, only that Gero cannot keep up with Piccolo's speed. Here, according to that logic, Gotenks did not "see" Super Boo also, what doesn't mean Super Boo >>> Gotenks SSJ3.

Spoiler

 

[kriss-]

No, it doesn't. Like I said, there are examples of a character many times weaker than the other not being single shotted. IIRC Goku even said to Kuririn he would not hold back. Perfect Cell, while suppressed, was still many times stronger than Kuririn [in fact, the gap was larger than SPC vs SSJ Vegeta]. Freeza 50% hit Goku base for real, as you can see here:

Those examples only occur because the stronger fighter is holding back.

So why you said before Recoome did not hold back on Vegeta? And I didn't even walk in to the question of the Recoome vs Vegeta gap being >/=/< than Piccolo vs Gero gap.

Anyways, the fight doesn't prove Gero cannot see Piccolo at all, only that Gero cannot keep up with Piccolo's speed. Here, according to that logic, Gotenks did not "see" Super Boo also, what doesn't mean Super Boo >>> Gotenks SSJ3.

It does.

Gero couldn't react to Piccolo.

Incorrect.

The feat between Gotenks & Piccolo isn't drawn the same. It's also contradicted later when Gotenks is kicking Super Boo's.

The Gero vs Piccolo fight doesn't contradict the gap at all.