Turning into a SSJ

[ahill1]

Do you think that a Saiyajin must reach a certain level in base to be able to achieve SSJ?

 

[SSJ2]

Doubt it. The closest we have to that implication are these statements from Vegeta:

Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P3.1-2
Vegeta: “A Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years… a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome…That’s supposed to just be a stupid tradition…And even if the legend were true…only I would have the potential to become a Super Saiyan.”

Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P14.1-3
Context: after Goku knocks out Recoom
Vegeta: “T-that just now wasn’t an attack…He can’t fool my eyes…It was a stupendously heavy blow…He’s clearly surpassed the fighting level of Saiyans…He’s a completely different person than the one I fought on Earth…What the hell kind of training did he do?...Was the legend true…!? Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”

Vegeta claims that Goku surpassed "the fighting level of Saiyans", so it stands to reason that a Saiyan on the level of Nappa would have no chance of transforming. Having said that, nothing factual is really known about Super Saiyan, it is all ancient legend.

The conditions for the transformation are far more important than the power.

Chapter: 319 (DBZ 125), P9.4-5, P10.4-7
Goku: “I’m a Saiyan who came from Earth to defeat you…A legendary warrior whose tranquil heart has been awakened through intense rage…Super Saiyan Son Goku!”
Freeza: “I…I knew it…It seems you really are a Super Saiyan…Fu-fuffuffuh…So your tranquil heart was awakened through intense rage, huh?...I see, so that’s why Vegeta could never become one, no matter how hard he tried…”

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

Without meeting this criteria, power becomes irrelevant. Vegeta directly states that getting stronger was not the reason for his transformation, so it stands to reason that there is no baseline of power that must be met to transform.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Totally. Super Saiyan is a state unlocked in order to surpass the limits of a regular Saiyan, thus logically one should have peaked out their Saiyan power in order to achieve it. Goku has been in situations of distress before, but the fact he only transformed on Namek would imply the sentimental trigger alone isn’t enough.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Whilst many don't like it, the S-Cell explanation is the most grounded explanation we have in how achieving the form works on a biological level and offers reasoning as to how those genetically far different from the average Saiyans achieved the form so easily. Increasing the amount of S-Cells would still require increasing Ki to a certain extent though, given how the Freeza Arc outlines such things as breaking Saiyan limits and gaining more than the standard Zenkai increase. We can use Trunks prior to Future Gohan's death as a possible minimum, though he may not be the standard due to being a hybrid.

 

[SSJ2]

Tf is the S Cell explanation

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Toriyama mentioned in an interview a few years back that a Saiyan's likelihood of achieving Super Saiyan is determined by the amount of S-Cells within their body, which are naturally greater in Saiyans with a gentle nature (hence why Galu achieved it before Vegeta or how Goten and Trunks easily achieved it) or can be increased through growth in battle power.

 

[ahill1]

Doubt it. The closest we have to that implication are these statements from Vegeta:

Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P3.1-2
Vegeta: “A Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years… a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome…That’s supposed to just be a stupid tradition…And even if the legend were true…only I would have the potential to become a Super Saiyan.”

Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P14.1-3
Context: after Goku knocks out Recoom
Vegeta: “T-that just now wasn’t an attack…He can’t fool my eyes…It was a stupendously heavy blow…He’s clearly surpassed the fighting level of Saiyans…He’s a completely different person than the one I fought on Earth…What the hell kind of training did he do?...Was the legend true…!? Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”

Vegeta claims that Goku surpassed "the fighting level of Saiyans", so it stands to reason that a Saiyan on the level of Nappa would have no chance of transforming. Having said that, nothing factual is really known about Super Saiyan, it is all ancient legend.

The conditions for the transformation are far more important than the power.

Chapter: 319 (DBZ 125), P9.4-5, P10.4-7
Goku: “I’m a Saiyan who came from Earth to defeat you…A legendary warrior whose tranquil heart has been awakened through intense rage…Super Saiyan Son Goku!”
Freeza: “I…I knew it…It seems you really are a Super Saiyan…Fu-fuffuffuh…So your tranquil heart was awakened through intense rage, huh?...I see, so that’s why Vegeta could never become one, no matter how hard he tried…”

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

Without meeting this criteria, power becomes irrelevant. Vegeta directly states that getting stronger was not the reason for his transformation, so it stands to reason that there is no baseline of power that must be met to transform.

Sure, but couldn't it be a combination of both? Having a tranquil heart and being in a certain threshold.

Kid Trunks kind of puts a bench of the 3,000,000 being the minimum required base level to achieve SSJ though, so maybe ~60k is the limit a Saiyajin must fulfil.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Kid Trunks kind of puts a bench of the 3,000,000 being the minimum required base level to achieve SSJ though, so maybe ~60k is the limit a Saiyajin must fulfil.

Assuming you're talking about his future self, it could be that the natural talent of hybrids allow them to achieve the form at a lower level than would be capable of a full-blooded Saiyan.

 

[SSJ2]

Sure, but couldn't it be a combination of both? Having a tranquil heart and being in a certain threshold.

Kid Trunks kind of puts a bench of the 3,000,000 being the minimum required base level to achieve SSJ though, so maybe ~60k is the limit a Saiyajin must fulfil.

I did say it was a combination of both. Once you have surpassed the level/limits of an ordinary Saiyan you should be able to transform under the right conditions. To say there is an exact power level a Saiyan must reach in order to transform is not once implied in the manga or any external sources.

 

[Future Warrior]

A tranquil heart, a high battle power, and get mad as fuck. You're good to go from there.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

A tranquil heart, a high battle power, and get mad as fuck. You're good to go from there.

Or just a tingly back feeling .

 

[ahill1]

Sure, but couldn't it be a combination of both? Having a tranquil heart and being in a certain threshold.

Kid Trunks kind of puts a bench of the 3,000,000 being the minimum required base level to achieve SSJ though, so maybe ~60k is the limit a Saiyajin must fulfil.

I did say it was a combination of both. Once you have surpassed the level/limits of an ordinary Saiyan you should be able to transform under the right conditions. To say there is an exact power level a Saiyan must reach in order to transform is not once implied in the manga or any external sources.

Well, surpassing the ordinary Saiyajin level already screams a certain level being fulfilled to achieve the state, to me.

 

[Papasmurf]

A tranquil heart, a high battle power, and get mad as fuck. You're good to go from there.

Or just a tingly back feeling .

[youtube]mwWQgbfUsy4[/youtube]

 

[Warmmedown]

I 100% think power is an important factor. How else would you determine when the saiyan wall has been passed? Whether that's a specific power level or a power level in relation to the individual saiyan's potential I don't know, but everyone who went SSJ had a power level at least as strong as Goku's on Namek.

If it was just about going from a tranquil heart to rage, Gohan probably would have gone super saiyan on Namek. I'm not even sure if Vegeta's path to SSJ supports the tranquility part being needed, because there are translations where he only says he was pure evil, not that he was tranquil.

The S-Cell thing does seem to make sense.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

If it was just about going from a tranquil heart to rage, Gohan probably would have gone super saiyan on Namek. I'm not even sure if Vegeta's path to SSJ supports the tranquility part being needed, because there are translations where he only says he was pure evil, not that he was tranquil.

Most translations clarify that Vegeta's heart was calm and pure. Viz's is the only one that omits the former detail, which is nothing new when they're notorious for condensing a lot of dialogue.

For the reason you mentioned though, I'd say the calm and pure aspect could be just the requirements that onlookers like Kuririn assumed were necessary due to not knowing better and that a truly intense rage was the key factor. Alternatively, you could argue that Namek Gohan was missing one or more of the core elements. Goku and Vegeta's transformations and calm hearts could have been the result of the former refining the spiritual aspect of his mind through Popo and Kaio's training and Vegeta picking up such skills through his experience respectively, whereas Gohan's training with Piccolo was purely a case of pick up basic skills without much guidance and a little bit of image training with Kuririn afterwards. Either that, or the rage wasn't enough when considering nobody got killed by Freeza (he wouldn't be certain Kuririn was dead at first) and when Kuririn did die he was struck with fear more so than anger.

 

[Warmmedown]

Actually in the past I've always assumed that like you suggested, Krillin was just incorrect and that Vegeta's SSJ resulted purely from anger. Even when I saw him saying anything along the lines of (depending on the exact translation) being calm and pure evil, I just took all of that as him trying to be grandiose and going for a bit of a narcissistic shock factor. Until this topic I hadn't ever taken seriously the idea of his heart needing to be either pure or calm.

The thing about Goku and Vegeta having had spiritual journeys and Gohan lacking that journey makes sense. Personally I was just thinking Goku being pure-hearted was sufficient on its own, while Vegeta could have instead reached a temporary state of meditative purity through his isolated training and self-reflection. And then in Gohan's case he has the pure-heartedness like Goku, but was just lacking the power all along, but now I think about Future Trunks' low power level and that doesn't make sense, so I'd go with Gohan just not being quite angry enough.

It could be a combo of power level, absolute rage level and the degree of emotional change experienced. That would allow Vegeta to transform because he went from being calm to extremely angry, Gohan able to go SSJ in the Rosat because he had passed the power threshold and Future Trunks to go SSJ despite being weak due to going from being reasonably kind-hearted to exceptionally angry, as a result of living in a ravaged world. Goten and Present Trunks were just so powerful they didn't need anywhere near as much emotional stimulus (beyond having an absent father and a Karen-looking mother).

 

[Future Warrior]

Tranquility and being a good person is not the same. It's possible that being at earth's peaceful environment for years has started to somewhat affect his fighting outlook or that he became more spiritually in-tune with his own internal energy, but whatever the case there is a lot to set Vegeta apart from the typical Saiyan we've seen. Although he took it pretty bad after getting his ass whooped by #18, he quickly became level-headed and started silently meditating (for days?) figuring out how to go beyond SSJ. I can't see Nappa or Raditz ever doing something like that.

 

[ahill1]

It's funny that bring tranquil seems to be one of the requirements, but they need to be at an absolutely no-tranquil state when becoming one, about to lose their mind.

I'm not sure if those requirements are even needed though, as previously said, since Vegeta even altered the pure heart to "pure evil heart".

 

[Warmmedown]

Tranquility and being a good person is not the same.

No shit sherlock, why don't you apply for the Nobel prize in literature after than revelation. People use different words to describe similar states though. Being calm would involve being low in anger, as would being pure of heart or kind-natured.

 

[Future Warrior]

No shit sherlock, why don't you apply for the Nobel prize in literature after than revelation.

Damn nigga.