Ultimate Piccolo (DBSSH) & Android 17 (DBS) vs TOP Golden Freeza

[Natasha Romanoff]

Who wins?

 

[SIAD]

Ultimate Piccolo in the Movie is stronger than the SSJB in the DBS Broly Movie.

Ultimate Piccolo in the Manga is much more powerful than Broly SSJFP.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo solos, and even 17 himself would put a fair fight.

Ultimate Piccolo = Current SSJB >>> ToP SSJB = Golden Freeza > Android 17

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@SIAD @GreatSaiyaman123

Toriyama said that Orange Piccolo = Blue Goku (DBSB). I am still skeptical about Piccolo's statement, he could be refering to a weaker version of SSJB Goku & Vegeta or just basing it on the fact that Gamma was too much for him (as he seems to be talking about a level completely different than what Toriyama has on mind). Also, Piccolo never fought anyone who is Blue level in the anime (which is the continuity the movie follows).

I have Golden Freeza a little bit stronger than SSB Goku in the TOP (prior to 123), his feat of receiving a punch without getting out of Golden while Goku went out of Blue is enough proof for me.

 

[SIAD]

I think in regards to the Movie:

Gammas (Piccolo's Estimate) = SSJB in DBS Broly.

Orange Piccolo = Goku SSJB (DBS Hero).

However, in the Manga:

Gammas (Piccolo's Estimation) = UI Sing Goku (Beyond Limits vs Moro).

The Gammas are stronger than Piccolo estimated in both continuities.

I have Ultimate Piccolo (Manga) rivaling Gogeta PSSJB (DBS Broly).

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@SIAD

Well, at least in my case, I think Orange Piccolo = Blue Goku DBSB because that's what the movie follows and we are told that SH continues. We don't know how much Goku progressed neither how much stronger Goku has gotten in Super Hero.

Everyone is free to believe what they want as I don't think anybody has the reason on this unless the future give us better pieces of evidence to make a notion.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Toriyama said that Orange Piccolo = Blue Goku (DBSB). I am still skeptical about Piccolo's statement, he could be refering to a weaker version of SSJB Goku & Vegeta or just basing it on the fact that Gamma was too much for him (as he seems to be talking about a level completely different than what Toriyama has on mind). Also, Piccolo never fought anyone who is Blue level in the anime (which is the continuity the movie follows).

I have Golden Freeza a little bit stronger than SSB Goku in the TOP (prior to 123), his feat of receiving a punch without getting out of Golden while Goku went out of Blue is enough proof for me.

He just said Orange Piccolo = Goku, presumably the strongest form. In the movie it's SSJB, in the anime it's KKx20.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

He just said Orange Piccolo = Goku, presumably the strongest form. In the movie it's SSJB, in the anime it's KKx20.

Well, in the movie, the strongest form shown is SSJB, so is likely refering to that form.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well, in the movie, the strongest form shown is SSJB, so is likely refering to that form.

That’s likely since AT tends to ignore anime and manga, but the Gammas ~ Goku/Vegeta statement muddies things up. Plus, Ultimate Gohan is SSJB level in both series, so it probably came from AT.

There’s a gap of months, maybe even years between the script being written and Toriyama’s notes. Maybe when he wrote the script he had SSJB in mind, but in his out of universe commentary he was aware of manga-only developments?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

That’s likely since AT tends to ignore anime and manga, but the Gammas ~ Goku/Vegeta statement muddies things up. Plus, Ultimate Gohan is SSJB level in both series, so it probably came from AT.

Or he just scripted in Piccolo a different version of Goku/Vegeta than what he had on mind. Ultimate Gohan in the anime was solidly weaker than Base Toppo (SSJB level) at the point that he tanked a Kamehameha from him.

There’s a gap of months, maybe even years between the script being written and Toriyama’s notes. Maybe when he wrote the script he had SSJB in mind, but in his out of universe commentary he was aware of manga-only developments?

Super Hero was scripted when DBS: Broly was on going.

Spoiler

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Or he just scripted in Piccolo a different version of Goku/Vegeta than what he had on mind. Ultimate Gohan in the anime was solidly weaker than Base Toppo (SSJB level) at the point that he tanked a Kamehameha from him.

But 17 could hold his own with Toppo, and a writer has said Gohan ~ 17. The series itself says Gohan rivals Goku too, so I wouldn’t put Gohan any lower than 80% of Goku.

Super Hero was scripted when DBS: Broly was on going.

Toriyama started writting the script when Broly was in production. We don’t know when he finished it. That’s why I said “months, maybe even years” instead of just “years”.

Point is, if he wrote Piccolo talking to Karin around the time of Broly’s production, then maybe he had SSJB in mind at first but UI when he wrote his commentary.

So I’m not sure how this works with the anime, but KKx20 level is a good spot. It’s the highest we’ve seen in the anime. SSJB is too low (He could fight Cell MAX a bit), and UI is too high (He was still stomped by Cell).

 

[Goku9001]

The movie continuity doesn't seem to acknowledge Kaioken or Blue Evolved so I would assume the Gammas were on par with the Broly Blue Saiyans at best. Ultimate Piccolo is close to the Gammas and Android 17 is fairly close to the ToP Blue Saiyans so I would give it to the duo here. Broly Golden Frieza on the other hand would win.

 

[SIAD]

I'm pretty sure that both in the DBS Movie and Manga, Ultimate Piccolo was confident in defeating Gamma 2. Initially, Piccolo easily outclassed Gamma 2, until the latter powered up and easily outclassed Piccolo.

Piccolo barely began to feel overwhelmed, declaring that the Gammas are stronger than he thought.

Gammas (FP) > Ultimate Piccolo > Gamma 2 (Initial vs Ultimate Piccolo) = Gammas (Piccolo's Expectations). Both in the Movie and in the Manga.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm pretty sure that both in the DBS Movie and Manga, Ultimate Piccolo was confident in defeating Gamma 2. Initially, Piccolo easily outclassed Gamma 2, until the latter powered up and easily outclassed Piccolo.

Piccolo barely began to feel overwhelmed, declaring that the Gammas are stronger than he thought.

Gammas (FP) > Ultimate Piccolo > Gamma 2 (Initial vs Ultimate Piccolo) = Gammas (Piccolo's Expectations). Both in the Movie and in the Manga.

But Piccoko was also “confident” in fighting 17. He just wanted to try.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

But 17 could hold his own with Toppo,

Which he can do if he is 75% of Toppo.

and a writer has said Gohan ~ 17.

I agree.

The series itself says Gohan rivals Goku too, so I wouldn’t put Gohan any lower than 80% of Goku.

Blue Goku rivals Sidra the same way Gohan rivals Blue Goku, Gohan wasn't offered to defeat Freeza at that point in history.

Toriyama started writting the script when Broly was in production. We don’t know when he finished it. That’s why I said “months, maybe even years” instead of just “years”.

Point is, if he wrote Piccolo talking to Karin around the time of Broly’s production, then maybe he had SSJB in mind at first but UI when he wrote his commentary.

So I’m not sure how this works with the anime, but KKx20 level is a good spot. It’s the highest we’ve seen in the anime. SSJB is too low (He could fight Cell MAX a bit), and UI is too high (He was still stomped by Cell).

The way of estimation Piccolo have is pretty poor, not for anything Gohan ended up surpassing both Gammas. Also Piccolo's statement doesn't have to hold that much weight in relation to Toriyama's statement.

If we are being logical, that Gohan doesn't even has any reason to be stronger than his TOP self as Ultimate. We can think that this Gohan is stronger than ever as he is stronger than both Gammas, which are the strongest androids. We don't have supplemental information that tell us how much Gamma surpasses him, though.

Cell Max or even Gohan Beast doesn't have to be beasts in terms of power.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Is there anything suggesting Blue Goku (DBSSH) = Orange Piccolo > Gammas > Blue Goku (DBSB)?

Super Hero characters are too bloated.

 

[SIAD]

Is there anything suggesting Blue Goku (DBSSH) = Orange Piccolo > Gammas > Blue Goku (DBSB)?

Super Hero characters are too bloated.

Yes.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Yes.

Which is?

It is difficult to estimate Goku's improve power gains and much more to say he is abundantly more stronger than before.

 

[SIAD]

I think in regards to the Movie:

Gammas (Piccolo's Estimate) = SSJB in DBS Broly.

Orange Piccolo = Goku SSJB (DBS Hero).

However, in the Manga:

Gammas (Piccolo's Estimation) = UI Sing Goku (Beyond Limits vs Moro).

The Gammas are stronger than Piccolo estimated in both continuities.

I have Ultimate Piccolo (Manga) rivaling Gogeta PSSJB (DBS Broly).

@Natasha Romanoff

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Well, I still go with:

*Piccolo has never fought anyone who is Blue level on the Anime
*Ultimate Gohan ended up being stronger than both Gammas and there's little to no reason to believe he is Base Toppo tier still as he tanked his Kamehameha like nothing
*There's no way to know how much stronger Goku has gotten and much less to think he is hugely stronger

@SIAD

I respect your opinion, I just don't share it.