Vegeta SSJ (Androids saga), Trunks SSJ (Androids saga) and Piccolo vs #18

[ahill1]

Could Trunks, Vegeta and Piccolo fighting together take out #18?

 

[kriss-]

Trunks couldn't believe that Vegeta was fighting on par with a more powerful Android than the one on his timeline.

Conclusion: Non-factor.

Piccolo is weaker than Trunks

Conclusion: Non-factor.

The match ends the same way, but they get a few more attacks in.

 

[Future Warrior]

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P1.1-3
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
No.17: “My my, some help has arrived. Even No.18 probably won’t be able to take them all on. No choice, shall I go? Or will you go, No.16?”

 

[kriss-]

Why don't people read the thread before posting some absurd , irrelevant point?

Countered:

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P14.6
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
Vegeta: “What an absolutely annoying bunch…Do you really think this is an opponent you guys would be any use against?”

 

[ahill1]

Why don't people read the thread before posting some absurd , irrelevant point?

Countered:

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P14.6
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
Vegeta: “What an absolutely annoying bunch…Do you really think this is an opponent you guys would be any use against?”

I take that statement with a grain of salt, since Vegeta believed him to be stronger than #18 at that time and Trunks is on Vegeta's level.

 

[kriss-]

Oh, so you can choose to avoid what statements you want to?

Trunks was astounded by the fact that Vegeta was fighting an even more powerful Android than the one he was capable of somewhat fighting. He's definitely not on Vegeta's level.

 

[SSJ2]

The team takes this with difficulty. 17 not being 100% sure that 18 would lose to them all is enough for me to say they would likely win, but it won't be easy. Piccolo is trash to 18, but he can act as bait. Vegeta and Trunks would have to tag team 18 while she is busy fucking Piccolo (with a strap on). I do also consider full power Vegeta to be closer to full power 18 than most, so the team can feasibly win.

 

[ahill1]

Oh, so you can choose to avoid what statements you want to?

Trunks was astounded by the fact that Vegeta was fighting an even more powerful Android than the one he was capable of somewhat fighting. He's definitely not on Vegeta's level.

Are not you doing that with #17's statement?

At that moment, Trunks still did not realize the Present Androids were stronger than that of his time, so he was only in awe of Vegeta fighting her evenly. This does not imply a great gap, even more when later Trunks said he could fight the Future Androids fairly well.

Besides this, the 3 saiyans are on the same range of power, according to Tenshinhan:



Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Context: talking about how Trunks and co. lost to the androids
Tenshinhan: “[Trunks] is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…He definitely can’t win…! Not even Goku…”

 

[ahill1]

And Vegeta cannot escape Trunks, either, Trunks keeps right up with him.

 

[kriss-]

Trunks was somewhat able to fight with Androids significantly weaker than the ones of the present timeline, who Vegeta is matching blow for blow. He later finds out that the present time Androids are actually stronger than he originally thought, so it just makes the gap between Vegeta & Trunks that much more significant.

Tienshinhan says Goku shouldn't be as different from Trunks and Vegeta as the Androids proved to be, nothing more. A common misconception is that speed correlates with strength, well it certainly doesn't. There is a relevancy between the two attributes but nothing more! One does not gradually go up at the same rate as the other.

 

[ahill1]

Trunks was somewhat able to fight with Androids significantly weaker than the ones of the present timeline, who Vegeta is matching blow for blow. He later finds out that the present time Androids are actually stronger than he originally thought, so it just makes the gap between Vegeta & Trunks that much more significant.

Vegeta was never equal to #18, who calls him nothing special. (Piccolo's fight against #17 is what fighting evenly is supposed to be; just look at how this fight is portrayed, with #17 bleeding and struggling after receiving a few blows). Trunks has only seen the second round of the fight, where Vegeta lands a two hit combo, followed by a blast, then goes on spar with #18 for a while, whereas #18 has been seemingly on defense for the most part during the round. Right after Trunks' comment he pretty much got owned almost instantly (I don't think his power has suddenly taken such a dive or something), after which Trunks was like "oh, fuck".

Tienshinhan says Goku shouldn't be as different from Trunks and Vegeta as the Androids proved to be, nothing more.

And based on this, Vegeta is not that different from Trunks. This implies the 3 SSJs are on the same range of power, with (Vegeta>=Goku>Trunks).

 

[kriss-]

Vegeta was never equal to #18, who calls him nothing special. (Piccolo's fight against #17 is what fighting evenly is supposed to be; just look at how this fight is portrayed, with #17 bleeding and struggling after receiving a few blows). Trunks has only seen the second round of the fight, where Vegeta lands a two hit combo, followed by a blast, then goes on spar with #18 for a while, whereas #18 has been seemingly on defense for the most part during the round. Right after Trunks' comment he pretty much got owned almost instantly (I don't think his power has suddenly taken such a dive or something), after which Trunks was like "oh, fuck".

Android 18 only won by wearing him down. If the fight was as different as you insist that it was, than I have no doubts Akira Toriyama would have drawn it that way, but he didn't.

And based on this, Vegeta is not that different from Trunks. This implies the 3 SSJs are on the same range of power, with (Vegeta>=Goku>Trunks).

Umm... it's subjective, so no, not really.

Trunks was astounded that his father was so powerful and capable of fighting equally with Androids he could scarcely fight, than it's revealed they were actually a whole lot stronger to begin with, making the gap between the two fighters even larger.

I don't like doing this, but:

Android 18 (Real) > Vegeta SSj (Real) > Android 18 (Future & Expected) =/= Vegeta SSj (Expected) > Trunks SSj

 

[ahill1]

Android 18 only won by wearing him down. If the fight was as different as you insist that it was, than I have no doubts Akira Toriyama would have drawn it that way, but he didn't.

Except the fight was not that evenly. Like I said, compare Vegeta vs #18 with Piccolo vs #17 or #16 vs Cell. This is what fight evenly means. Just look at how AT portrayed those fights, with them machine bleeding, struggling and stuff after receiving a few blows.

Vegeta is absolutely dumbfounded how strong Piccolo had become when he fused with Kami, and that was only Piccolo weighted, who should be around #18's power. Hell, Imperfect Cell (Ginger Town) was already stronger than Vegeta and he did not rival #18. Based on this, 18 is quite above Vegeta.

Even if Piccolo pointed out that Vegeta's stamina is the main factor for his lost, later he doesn't seem to think much of Vegeta, since he said they were not even worthy of killing and that Vegeta was powerless against them.

Umm... it's subjective, so no, not really.

What?

Trunks was astounded that his father was so powerful and capable of fighting equally with Androids he could scarcely fight

Yea, Vegeta > Trunks, never denied that. I just don't think they are far apart, based on Tenshinhan's comments (even though his comment is a bit odd). Later, Trunks said he could fight the Future Cyborgs fairly well, so I'd put him as a distant rival of the Cyborgs of his time.

Android 18 (Real) > Vegeta SSj (Real) > Android 18 (Future & Expected) =/= Vegeta SSj (Expected) > Trunks SSj

Nah, more like this IMO:

Android #18 >> Vegeta SSJ ~ Future #18 > Trunks SSJ ~ Vegeta SSJ (expected).

 

[ahill1]

And I don't think Trunks realized the Present Artificial Humans were stronger until he fought them.

 

[kriss-]

Except the fight was not that evenly. Like I said, compare Vegeta vs #18 with Piccolo vs #17 or #16 vs Cell. This is what fight evenly means. Just look at how AT portrayed those fights, with them machine bleeding, struggling and stuff after receiving a few blows.

Vegeta is absolutely dumbfounded how strong Piccolo had become when he fused with Kami, and that was only Piccolo weighted, who should be around #18's power. Hell, Imperfect Cell (Ginger Town) was already stronger than Vegeta and he did not rival #18. Based on this, 18 is quite above Vegeta.

Even if Piccolo pointed out that Vegeta's stamina is the main factor for his lost, later he doesn't seem to think much of Vegeta, since he said they were not even worthy of killing and that Vegeta was powerless against them.

Nah, your one dimensional perspective in regards to an even fight is not a principal or a fuckin' fact. Vegeta was able to resist her and didn't get immediately taken out, so he's closer than your speculated conjecture. There was definitely a difference in power, but his new transformation wore him down and secured his loss. Albeit, he would of lost if he also had infinite stamina, but it would have been a prolonged battle.

Android #18 >> Vegeta SSJ ~ Future #18 > Trunks SSJ ~ Vegeta SSJ (expected).

I prefer my interpretation.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

#18 with extreme difficulty.

 

[Tapion]

Trunks couldn't believe that Vegeta was fighting on par with a more powerful Android than the one on his timeline.

And then 18 proceeded to beat Vegeta down like he was a trash. She was just toying with him.

Conclusion: Non-factor.

You wish.

Piccolo is weaker than Trunks

He is weaker, but rivals Trunks.

Conclusion: Non-factor.

You wish²

Why don't people read the thread before posting some absurd , irrelevant point?

I thought that you did the same thing in every debate with Victorious.

Countered:

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P14.6
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
Vegeta: “What an absolutely annoying bunch…Do you really think this is an opponent you guys would be any use against?”

Same guy that said that he could take out 18, only to be completely beaten and humiliated. It would be better if he was one-shoted, at least he wouldn't suffer that kind of beatdown.

Oh, so you can choose to avoid what statements you want to?

You did that 5 seconds before you commented. Stop being hypocrite.

Trunks was astounded by the fact that Vegeta was fighting an even more powerful Android than the one he was capable of somewhat fighting. He's definitely not on Vegeta's level.

18 was toying with Vegeta. She said that he was no match for her and called him trash, and proceeded to be unscathed by an attack.

Debunked.

 

[ahill1]

Not disagreeing with you, but did not Future Trunks say (in the Androids saga) he was no match against the Future Androids? And later he said he could fight them fairly well.

 

[kriss-]

Trunks couldn't believe that Vegeta was fighting on par with a more powerful Android than the one on his timeline.

And then 18 proceeded to beat Vegeta down like he was a trash. She was just toying with him.

Conclusion: Non-factor.

You wish.

Piccolo is weaker than Trunks

He is weaker, but rivals Trunks.

Conclusion: Non-factor.

You wish²

Why don't people read the thread before posting some absurd , irrelevant point?

I thought that you did the same thing in every debate with Victorious.

Countered:

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P14.6
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
Vegeta: “What an absolutely annoying bunch…Do you really think this is an opponent you guys would be any use against?”

Same guy that said that he could take out 18, only to be completely beaten and humiliated. It would be better if he was one-shoted, at least he wouldn't suffer that kind of beatdown.

Oh, so you can choose to avoid what statements you want to?

You did that 5 seconds before you commented. Stop being hypocrite.

Trunks was astounded by the fact that Vegeta was fighting an even more powerful Android than the one he was capable of somewhat fighting. He's definitely not on Vegeta's level.

18 was toying with Vegeta. She said that he was no match for her and called him trash, and proceeded to be unscathed by an attack.

Debunked.

That is all incorrect from the merits of the subjective evidence that we have on hand.

Both sides are correct.