Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP) vs Kefla Base?

[SIAD]

Anime.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SSJB Vegeta > SSJB Goku > Kefla

 

[SIAD]

@GreatSaiyaman123

So you go back to the thought of having:

Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP) = Toppo >>> Goku SSJB (Start of ToP)?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@GreatSaiyaman123

So you go back to the thought of having:

Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP) = Toppo >>> Goku SSJB (Start of ToP)?

Yes. I’ve noticed the magazine says “Goku’s strength is No. 1” and “Golden Freeza is equal to Goku” in separate boxes, so it’s possible the first is considering Kaio-Ken and the later isn’t.

I’m also starting to wonder if Android 17 > Goku. He did fairly well against Toppo.

 

[SIAD]

Yes. I’ve noticed the magazine says “Goku’s strength is No. 1” and “Golden Freeza is equal to Goku” in separate boxes, so it’s possible the first is considering Kaio-Ken and the later isn’t.

I’m also starting to wonder if Android 17 > Goku. He did fairly well against Toppo.

And who do you have stronger between Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren) and Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP)?

According to @Goku9001's theory it seems that Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren) >= Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP), since the Gods of U11 talk about Jiren defeating Goku, it would mean that no one could against Jiren. But on the other hand, it is possible that up to that point they didn't know Vegeta's true power, since the only times he had used SSJB before, it was for an instant to finish off the Danger Trio and he used SSJB for an instant to give him a blow. light blow to Magetta.

I think I have no problem having Vegeta SSJB > Goku SSJB, until the latter starts fighting Kefla.

As for #17, I think he had managed to tire Toppo out a fair amount, so he couldn't shoot #17 so easily.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

And who do you have stronger between Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren) and Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP)?

According to @Goku9001's theory it seems that Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren) >= Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP), since the Gods of U11 talk about Jiren defeating Goku, it would mean that no one could against Jiren. But on the other hand, it is possible that up to that point they didn't know Vegeta's true power, since the only times he had used SSJB before, it was for an instant to finish off the Danger Trio and he used SSJB for an instant to give him a blow. light blow to Magetta.

I think I have no problem having Vegeta SSJB > Goku SSJB, until the latter starts fighting Kefla.

As for #17, I think he had managed to tire Toppo out a fair amount, so he couldn't shoot #17 so easily.

I doubt it. Goku hadn’t fought anyone seriously before Jiren, so I strongly doubt he got any power ups.

 

[SIAD]

I doubt it. Goku hadn’t fought anyone seriously before Jiren, so I strongly doubt he got any power ups.

Goku SSJB (Peak vs Kefla) >>>>> Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP) >> Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren)?

 

[Goku9001]

And who do you have stronger between Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren) and Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP)?

According to @Goku9001's theory it seems that Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren) >= Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP), since the Gods of U11 talk about Jiren defeating Goku, it would mean that no one could against Jiren. But on the other hand, it is possible that up to that point they didn't know Vegeta's true power, since the only times he had used SSJB before, it was for an instant to finish off the Danger Trio and he used SSJB for an instant to give him a blow. light blow to Magetta.

I think I have no problem having Vegeta SSJB > Goku SSJB, until the latter starts fighting Kefla.

As for #17, I think he had managed to tire Toppo out a fair amount, so he couldn't shoot #17 so easily.

Blue Goku (vs. Jiren) is definitely stronger. The power Jiren used against Kale is above Toppo's and Jiren used even more power to fight against Blue Goku.

 

[SIAD]

@Goku9001
@Animelover5487

Which gap is bigger between UI Sign Goku (Episode 110) over Genkidama vs Gap between Genkidama over Goku SSJB Kaioken x20 (Episode 109)?

I really have a hard time having Kale Berseker SSJ at the SSJB level, Goku only mentioned that he would use more power and Goku often used SSJB in a very Suppressed way.

In Episode 101 it is shown how the power difference between SSJ Berseker forms over SSJ can't be too big. The Pride Troopers were overpowering the Kale SSJ + Caulifla SSJ combo attack without much trouble, until Kale transforms into Berseker SSJ and Caulifla transforms into SSJ2 and they easily (not too easily) outmatch the Pride Troopers combo attack.

The only times the SSJB level is witnessed before Episode 109 (other than Goku), is when Vegeta and Goku momentarily use SSJB against the Danger Trio, also a brief staged match between Ultimate Gohan vs. Golden Frieza and Vegeta SSJB. giving Magetta a light blow.

So Goku SSJB (Vs Jiren) is still >= Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP)?

 

[Goku9001]

I doubt it. Goku hadn’t fought anyone seriously before Jiren, so I strongly doubt he got any power ups.

It's all relative. Goku was primarily in his Base form when battling powerful opponents.

Regardless, I think the narrative clearly establishes Blue Goku as the strongest and requires Jiren to use even more power to fight him despite being able to defeat Berserker Kale in a single blow without that power. The narrative is clear here.

But if you want to say Blue Goku (vs. Jiren) ~ Blue Goku (Initial) >> Blue Vegeta (Initial), that's fine too I guess.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's all relative. Goku was primarily in his Base form when battling powerful opponents.

Regardless, I think the narrative clearly establishes Blue Goku as the strongest and requires Jiren to use even more power to fight him despite being able to defeat Berserker Kale in a single blow without that power. The narrative is clear here.

But if you want to say Blue Goku (vs. Jiren) ~ Blue Goku (Initial) >> Blue Vegeta (Initial), that's fine too I guess.

I don't really mind Goku being >= or > Vegeta, but Goku is clearly the strongest because of Kaio-Ken. If you think Kaio-Ken isn't being included here for some reason, then it shouldn't be included when they talk about this being the first time Goku goes full power either.

SSJB Goku fought Jiren across the arena while Kale got one shot and exploded, so the narrative is indeed very clear.

 

[Goku9001]

I don't really mind Goku being >= or > Vegeta, but Goku is clearly the strongest because of Kaio-Ken. If you think Kaio-Ken isn't being included here for some reason, then it shouldn't be included when they talk about this being the first time Goku goes full power either.

SSJB Goku fought Jiren across the arena while Kale got one shot and exploded, so the narrative is indeed very clear.

It's a clear reference to Blue because Goku's Blue power specifically is what causes Jiren to be flinch and get serious. We literally have a full development of Goku ramping things up until Blue which was the moment Jiren was waiting for. We witness Blue Gokus spiraling around with Jiren and everyone is in awe. Everyone treats Blue Goku and Jiren as the strongest opponents on the battlefield.

Stop omitting the facts. Blue Goku was on par with Blue Vegeta and Toppo and yet Kale was a force to be reckoned with. The fact that Jiren needs a power far greater than Blue level specifically to one-shot Kale yet needs even more power to fight Blue Goku (109) means that Blue Goku had grown much stronger to compensate for that. You are just ignoring context here.

 

[SIAD]

@Goku9001

So how do you explain Frieza telling Cabba that after defeating him, he will play with the Saiyans in Episode 114?

And what numerical gap do you have to Kale Berserker SSJ over his SSJ form?

 

[Goku9001]

@Goku9001

So how do you explain Frieza telling Cabba that after defeating him, he will play with the Saiyans in Episode 114?

And what numerical gap do you have to Kale Berserker SSJ over his SSJ form?

He got stronger. Goku got stronger and yet the writers claim they are equal. It's why Frieza doesn't really need Golden form to compete with Dyspo where Initial Blue was struggling to keep up with him.

 

[SIAD]

He got stronger. Goku got stronger and yet the writers claim they are equal. It's why Frieza doesn't really need Golden form to compete with Dyspo where Initial Blue was struggling to keep up with him.

However, Toppo Base is still stronger than Golden Frieza (Peak).

 

[Goku9001]

However, Toppo Base is still stronger than Golden Frieza (Peak).

We actually don't know that.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's a clear reference to Blue because Goku's Blue power specifically is what causes Jiren to be flinch and get serious. We literally have a full development of Goku ramping things up until Blue which was the moment Jiren was waiting for. We witness Blue Gokus spiraling around with Jiren and everyone is in awe. Everyone treats Blue Goku and Jiren as the strongest opponents on the battlefield.

Stop omitting the facts. Blue Goku was on par with Blue Vegeta and Toppo and yet Kale was a force to be reckoned with. The fact that Jiren needs a power far greater than Blue level specifically to one-shot Kale yet needs even more power to fight Blue Goku (109) means that Blue Goku had grown much stronger to compensate for that. You are just ignoring context here.

So Jiren > Goku > Kale. Neat.

What do Goku and Freeza even do to get stronger? All Kale does is push Goku away and they don't even fight again. From the top of my head, he fights Tupper, Maji Kayo, Dyspo and Ribrianne after that. Out of these, I can see Ribrianne powering him up maybe... He was fighting Super Ribrianne in base when even Base Ribrianne had Vegeta going SSJ. But on the other hand, Freeza literally just fires random beams at everyone and occasionally steps down to stomp some fodder. Might as well say he was getting stronger fighting Nail too.

We actually don't know that.

I think his Death Beams would do a lot more than just sting an off guard Toppo if they were that close.

 

[SIAD]

What I have is Goku SSJB going from being inferior to Vegeta SSJB (Start Of ToP) to being equal to him without much explanation. Maybe in those minutes that he dedicated himself to rest and was shocked to see Jiren trampling Maji-Kayo, he made him have a power-up?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What I have is Goku SSJB going from being inferior to Vegeta SSJB (Start Of ToP) to being equal to him without much explanation. Maybe in those minutes that he dedicated himself to rest and was shocked to see Jiren trampling Maji-Kayo, he made him have a power-up?

Saiyans get stronger by fighting, not seeing other people fight. If anyone made him get stronger, it was Ribrianne.

 

[SIAD]

Saiyans get stronger by fighting, not seeing other people fight. If anyone made him get stronger, it was Ribrianne.

That seems very good to me. Ribrianne was the one who strengthened Goku. Case closed.