Vegeta SSJB (Start of ToP) vs Kefla Base?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That seems very good to me. Ribrianne was the one who strengthened Goku. Case closed.

And Kale is SSJB level?

 

[SIAD]

@GreatSaiyaman123

The most precise moment in which Goku increased his power is when Ribrianne turned into a ball started hitting Goku and making him back at the beginning of Episode 109.

At that moment Goku got so strong that with a suppressed kick he managed to hit Ribrianne. Then Ribrianne transforms into Super Ribrianne and forces Goku to use "more power" (I mean more effort of his newly acquired power).

Finally Goku Base uses all the power of his newly acquired power against Jiren.

How about this:

Goku Base (Star Of ToP) = 1
Goku Base (Suppressed / Ribrianne's Post Ball Attack) = 1.15
Goku Base (More effort against Super Ribrianne) = 1.32
Goku Base (FP / Ribrianne's Post Ball Attack) (He uses it when he fights Jiren) = 1.5

Vegeta (Star Of ToP) = 1.5

Ribrianne = 1.14
Super Ribrianne = 1,311

 

[SIAD]

And Kale is SSJB level?

I don't think based on your points and that I don't see a tremendous difference between Berserker SSJ forms over SSJ in Episode 101, but I'm not closed to the possibility. But anyway I have Vegeta SSJB > Kale SSJ2.

I think Goku (Post Jiren) is >>> Goku (Vs Jiren).

 

[Animelover5487]

Saiyans get stronger by fighting, not seeing other people fight. If anyone made him get stronger, it was Ribrianne.

Why would Goku get stronger from fighting Ribrianne? She didn't damage him at all and only gave him a hard time in his base form and oneshotted her as Blue. Saiyans need to be pushed to their limit in battle to get stronger.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why would Goku get stronger from fighting Ribrianne? She didn't damage him at all and only gave him a hard time in his base form and oneshotted her as Blue. Saiyans need to be pushed to their limit in battle to get stronger.

Idk man these guys swear that SSJB Goku vs Jiren > SSJB Goku vs Kale and Ribrianne is the closest thing to a challenge Goku had between 100 and 109. Who else would it be? Kunshi? lol

 

[SIAD]

Idk man these guys swear that SSJB Goku vs Jiren > SSJB Goku vs Kale and Ribrianne is the closest thing to a challenge Goku had between 100 and 109. Who else would it be? Kunshi? lol

I don't remember if it was in Episode 107 or 108 where Goku Base (with an aura surrounding him) is shown fighting evenly against Ribrianne.

At the end of Base Goku vs. Ribrianne's match, Base Goku (FP) > Base Goku (Suppressed vs. Super Ribrianne) >= Super Ribrianne > Base Goku (Suppressed when kicking Ribrianne) >= Ribrianne > Base Goku (At the beginning of the Combat against Ribrianne) = Goku Base (Star Of ToP).

 

[Animelover5487]

Idk man these guys swear that SSJB Goku vs Jiren > SSJB Goku vs Kale and Ribrianne is the closest thing to a challenge Goku had between 100 and 109. Who else would it be? Kunshi? lol

I don't remember if it was in Episode 107 or 108 where Goku Base (with an aura surrounding him) is shown fighting evenly against Ribrianne.

At the end of Base Goku vs. Ribrianne's match, Base Goku (FP) > Base Goku (Suppressed vs. Super Ribrianne) >= Super Ribrianne > Base Goku (Suppressed when kicking Ribrianne) >= Ribrianne > Base Goku (At the beginning of the Combat against Ribrianne) = Goku Base (Star Of ToP).

Do you think SSJ Vegeta was surprised when he was fighting evenly with Ribrianne? Or did him and Goku get stronger since he is later shown beating Ribrianne in Base?

 

[SIAD]

I think Ribrianne vs Vegeta SSJ should not be taken seriously. Even Vegeta decided not to hit her out of disgust.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@SIAD what if…

LSSJ Kale >>> SSJB Goku (Suppressed) ~ SSJ2 Goku?

What if Goku just went SSJB so he wouldn’t waste stamina as a SSJ2? A full power Kamehameha as a SSJ2 would cost a lot of energy, but it would be nothing off of a suppressed SSJB.

Goku: 1
~ SSJ: 50
~ SSJ2: 100
~ SSJB (Suppressed): 100

Caulifla: 1
~ SSJ2: 100

Kale: 2
~ LSSJ: 200+

 

[Goku9001]

So Jiren > Goku > Kale. Neat.

What do Goku and Freeza even do to get stronger? All Kale does is push Goku away and they don't even fight again. From the top of my head, he fights Tupper, Maji Kayo, Dyspo and Ribrianne after that. Out of these, I can see Ribrianne powering him up maybe... He was fighting Super Ribrianne in base when even Base Ribrianne had Vegeta going SSJ. But on the other hand, Freeza literally just fires random beams at everyone and occasionally steps down to stomp some fodder. Might as well say he was getting stronger fighting Nail too.



I think his Death Beams would do a lot more than just sting an off guard Toppo if they were that close.

I think you're disregarding the narrative for a preconceived conclusion. My argument is:

Jiren > Goku (vs. Jiren) > Kale ~ Blue Vegeta/Toppo given what the narrative establishes about Goku's strength being far beyond the others. How you took that to mean something else is dishonest and beyond me. You're better than this.

What did Frieza do to justify beating Dyspo the way he did without his Golden form? He had to have gotten stronger to have contest Dyspo's speed since Frieza was firmly established to be Base Goku's equal prior to the Tournament of Power. Therefore, we have a precedent for Frieza to have gotten stronger during the tournament. Likewise, Goku was shown struggling against many of his opponents as he was seen in his Base form. We know from his battle with Caulifa/Kale that he doesn't need to enter Blue to even grow stronger so long as a fight is pushing him to his limits. And we know he was since he was often seen struggling.

Didn't Android 17 get stronger just by dicking around with a bunch of fodder Cell Juniors and playing patroller? Yeah, I rest my case here.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think you're disregarding the narrative for a preconceived conclusion. My argument is:

Jiren > Goku (vs. Jiren) > Kale ~ Blue Vegeta/Toppo given what the narrative establishes about Goku's strength being far beyond the others. How you took that to mean something else is dishonest and beyond me. You're better than this.

What did Frieza do to justify beating Dyspo the way he did without his Golden form? He had to have gotten stronger to have contest Dyspo's speed since Frieza was firmly established to be Base Goku's equal prior to the Tournament of Power. Therefore, we have a precedent for Frieza to have gotten stronger during the tournament. Likewise, Goku was shown struggling against many of his opponents as he was seen in his Base form. We know from his battle with Caulifa/Kale that he doesn't need to enter Blue to even grow stronger so long as a fight is pushing him to his limits. And we know he was since he was often seen struggling.

Didn't Android 17 get stronger just by dicking around with a bunch of fodder Cell Juniors and playing patroller? Yeah, I rest my case here.

The thing is, it’s pretty obvious the writers changed their minds by the next episode. Kale isn’t walking through the Pride Troopers when she transforms again.

When was Freeza equals with Base Goku? We only saw they were equals in their strongest forms. Sure Goku might have pushed himself to get stronger, but he was constantly fighting people while Freeza didn’t do shit until Agnilaza, and even then he barely did anything.

17 actually tells Goku he’s been training, and he took several years to reach that level of power.

 

[Goku9001]

The thing is, it’s pretty obvious the writers changed their minds by the next episode. Kale isn’t walking through the Pride Troopers when she transforms again.

When was Freeza equals with Base Goku? We only saw they were equals in their strongest forms. Sure Goku might have pushed himself to get stronger, but he was constantly fighting people while Freeza didn’t do shit until Agnilaza, and even then he barely did anything.

17 actually tells Goku he’s been training, and he took several years to reach that level of power.

They didn't because Berserker Kale (114) is firmly established to be the same power Goku felt when he first confronted Berserker Kale. Both Toppo and Blue Vegeta take note of this and Toppo states that the energy is tremendous and must take the Saiyans seriously based on that.

During their battle, Frieza required his (heavily suppressed) Golden form to be able to fight against Base Goku.

Manga gives further clarification on what Android 17 was up to and it might as well not be training. Anime doesn't even give us any specifics on it. At least Gohan was training with Piccolo. Android 17 wasn't training with anyone God tier nor was he shown to be doing any sort of image training whatsoever nor was he shown in a position like Frost where he was fending for his life. There's no excuse for this yet the anime made it happen. Likewise, the anime allowed Frieza and 17 to grow stronger because it was a necessity for them to do so if they wanted to match up to Goku/Vegeta and face Jiren. But we could act like the feats didn't happen because it doesn't make sense.

 

[Goku9001]

Idk man these guys swear that SSJB Goku vs Jiren > SSJB Goku vs Kale and Ribrianne is the closest thing to a challenge Goku had between 100 and 109. Who else would it be? Kunshi? lol

Kunshi, Dyspo, Random asshat who nearly knocked Goku off the stage, Pride Troopers, Ribrianne and her posse, the stretchy dude that Tired Dyspo nearly lost to. Keep in mind that Goku can still be pushed to his limits in any form. Aside from that, the mere prospect of battling Merged Zamasu forced Vegeta and Goku beyond their limits. Why couldn't the same thing occur to Goku? Goku wanted to battle Jiren and knew he had to grow stronger to face up to him. This could be an instance of just that.

Tell me. How did Frieza manage to fight Dyspo, one that can operate at Blue level speed with just his Final Form? How did 17 manage to reach Blue level with no real mentor, no viable training partners, no image training, and no critical life circumstances that would strengthen his spirit and resolve? Do we just assume that these things did not happen?

The fact of the matter is that Blue Goku was regarded as the strongest power on the field. Jiren didn't even bat an eye with Blue Goku at the start of his tournament yet approaches him on Ep 109 with a power that far exceeded the one he eliminated Kale with. The narrative implications are too significant to ignore. Doesn't matter if they don't make sense. The narrative is clear here.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

They didn't because Berserker Kale (114) is firmly established to be the same power Goku felt when he first confronted Berserker Kale. Both Toppo and Blue Vegeta take note of this and Toppo states that the energy is tremendous and must take the Saiyans seriously based on that.

During their battle, Frieza required his (heavily suppressed) Golden form to be able to fight against Base Goku.

Manga gives further clarification on what Android 17 was up to and it might as well not be training. Anime doesn't even give us any specifics on it. At least Gohan was training with Piccolo. Android 17 wasn't training with anyone God tier nor was he shown to be doing any sort of image training whatsoever nor was he shown in a position like Frost where he was fending for his life. There's no excuse for this yet the anime made it happen. Likewise, the anime allowed Frieza and 17 to grow stronger because it was a necessity for them to do so if they wanted to match up to Goku/Vegeta and face Jiren. But we could act like the feats didn't happen because it doesn't make sense.

Then what’s up with Kale being so weak in episodes 93 and 114?

Freeza was already in Golden form, which he used to kill assassins weaker than the U9 team, so doesn’t look like it.

17 tells Goku that he hasn’t been sitting around all this time in the anime, so it’s not quite the same. Bringing up the manga doesn’t really help you because taming Cell Jrs is anything but easy for his Cell Saga level. Sure, 17 and Freeza are some of the most gifted guys in the series, but they did not push themselves whatsoever in the 40 minute span of the ToP to warrant this power, nor are they suggested to.

17 and Freeza don’t do shit against Jiren though. Freeza gets smacked around and spends a lot of time dead on the floor, 17 jumps in with Goku and Vegeta but they all fail to do anything to Jiren. Even the fact he could keep up isn’t much. Is Kuririn close to Gohan and Piccolo because they all attacked 4th form Freeza at once on Namek?

Kunshi, Dyspo, Random asshat who nearly knocked Goku off the stage, Pride Troopers, Ribrianne and her posse, the stretchy dude that Tired Dyspo nearly lost to. Keep in mind that Goku can still be pushed to his limits in any form. Aside from that, the mere prospect of battling Merged Zamasu forced Vegeta and Goku beyond their limits. Why couldn't the same thing occur to Goku? Goku wanted to battle Jiren and knew he had to grow stronger to face up to him. This could be an instance of just that.

Tell me. How did Frieza manage to fight Dyspo, one that can operate at Blue level speed with just his Final Form? How did 17 manage to reach Blue level with no real mentor, no viable training partners, no image training, and no critical life circumstances that would strengthen his spirit and resolve? Do we just assume that these things did not happen?

The fact of the matter is that Blue Goku was regarded as the strongest power on the field. Jiren didn't even bat an eye with Blue Goku at the start of his tournament yet approaches him on Ep 109 with a power that far exceeded the one he eliminated Kale with. The narrative implications are too significant to ignore. Doesn't matter if they don't make sense. The narrative is clear here.

You mean when Goku and Vegeta attack Zamasu from the sides and he breaks their arms? I always thought they’d gotten a zenkai from being KO’d earlier.

I wouldn’t say Dyspo has SSJB speed when Golden Freeza smacked him and SSJB Goku had him cowering away. Base Freeza is most likely SSJG level. Who do you think made Freeza stronger? Frost? Cabba?

I really don’t think you can equate 17’s off screen training to this. That’s like saying Piccolo catching up to SSJ level in the Android Saga means he should surpass the Androids just by getting punched by 17. In fact that’s more credible than 17 and Freeza getting stronger mid tournament, because at least Piccolo was in a extreme situation. But it’s not the case for any of these guys, because it’s not suggested anywhere.

Is Goku actually suggested to be at full power? It’s implied in his fight with Jiren that he had yet to show his full power until then.

 

[Goku9001]

Then what’s up with Kale being so weak in episodes 93 and 114?

Freeza was already in Golden form, which he used to kill assassins weaker than the U9 team, so doesn’t look like it.

17 tells Goku that he hasn’t been sitting around all this time in the anime, so it’s not quite the same. Bringing up the manga doesn’t really help you because taming Cell Jrs is anything but easy for his Cell Saga level. Sure, 17 and Freeza are some of the most gifted guys in the series, but they did not push themselves whatsoever in the 40 minute span of the ToP to warrant this power, nor are they suggested to.

17 and Freeza don’t do shit against Jiren though. Freeza gets smacked around and spends a lot of time dead on the floor, 17 jumps in with Goku and Vegeta but they all fail to do anything to Jiren. Even the fact he could keep up isn’t much. Is Kuririn close to Gohan and Piccolo because they all attacked 4th form Freeza at once on Namek?

1. I don't recall Kale being that weak in episode 114. Toppo and Blue Vegeta are nervous about it and Goku is gritting his teeth and is terrified despite being able to use Super Saiyan 3. That would suggest that Berserker Kale was far beyond SSJ3 Goku but below God Goku after his battles with Jiren and Caulifa.

2. Base Goku and Golden Frieza were shown matching each other in terms of speed, Frieza needed to operate beyond his Final Form power to compete with Base Goku.'
Golden Frieza (Full Power) ~ Blue Goku (Full Power) >>> Golden Frieza (Heavily Suppressed) ~ Base Goku > Final Form Frieza.

3. I don't deny that 17 was training. The point that is being made here is that 17 has no mentors, no real training partners, no image training, and no harsh/special conditions such as RoSaT or fighting for your life (in the case of Trunks and Frost). Therefore, the anime doesn't do any justice in explaining his power progression. The manga remains consistent with this by conveying to us that 17 was training but it was regarded as virtually nothing by Goku. At least in the case of the ToP, fighters are placed a very competitive, high-stakes situation that would encourage them to grow if they want to survive.

4. Android 17 explicitly blocks hits from Jiren and his barrier was able to deflect attacks from Jiren. But regardless, there's still Frieza's performance against Dyspo which can't really be explained if Golden Frieza was already equal to Initial Blue Goku.

You mean when Goku and Vegeta attack Zamasu from the sides and he breaks their arms? I always thought they’d gotten a zenkai from being KO’d earlier.

I wouldn’t say Dyspo has SSJB speed when Golden Freeza smacked him and SSJB Goku had him cowering away. Base Freeza is most likely SSJG level. Who do you think made Freeza stronger? Frost? Cabba?

I really don’t think you can equate 17’s off screen training to this. That’s like saying Piccolo catching up to SSJ level in the Android Saga means he should surpass the Androids just by getting punched by 17. In fact that’s more credible than 17 and Freeza getting stronger mid tournament, because at least Piccolo was in a extreme situation. But it’s not the case for any of these guys, because it’s not suggested anywhere.

Is Goku actually suggested to be at full power? It’s implied in his fight with Jiren that he had yet to show his full power until then.

1. Vegeta states that they'll have to push themselves to their limits and Goku responds affirmatively to that. That seems like a conscious decision rather than a zenkai and I believe that's a trait exclusive to Goku Black,

2. This is still sidestepping the point. Frieza needed to transform to match Base Goku in speed yet manages to compete with Dyspo in terms of speed despite Dyspo being faster than Initial SSJG Goku. That is a significant increase regardless.

3. I would say you can because it's blatantly made clear in the manga and the anime gives very little context as to what 17's training entails yet has no issues presenting 17 as a Blue tier fighter despite how absurd it would be to the reader. Piccolo's training isn't even remotely a comparable example because his training is actually given context which is the main differentiating factor here. How strong do you think 17 and Golden Frieza are compared to Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta towards the end of ToP?

4. If it was, then his full power would exceed both Blue Vegeta's and Toppo's then.

 

[SIAD]

At what point is it shown that Golden Frieza (Heavily Suppressed) = Goku Base > Frieza True Form?

I never really knew about that.

I'm thinking that maybe throughout ToP Frieza increased his power in all his forms (except Golden Form).

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@Goku9001 All 17 could do against Jiren was throw attacks that would get blocked or dodged, block punches and still be pushed back and hurt by them, and at one point he puts a dozen barriers between himself and Jiren and he flies through them like nothing. His best feat is catching Jiren off guard with a super charged blast that almost got himself killed. Him not getting blown out of the arena just by being there might have been a feat as well if this weren’t Super.

to give a more Super oriented example (Since Z clearly doesn’t follow this logic of mid battle improvements anyway), the humans all powered up considerably prior to the ToP but failed to improve in battle. Even Gohan himself, an actual Saiyan and the most gifted one, absolutely failed to improve significantly if at all in battle against Dyspo and Toppo.

 

[Animelover5487]

Toppo tanking Gohan's KHH, and then equally tanking 17's blast while off guard at that while Freeza can wound Toppo with his off guard blasts is all you need to know about where 17 falls in the pecking order. There just isn't any strong evidence of 17 being Blue tier because he's portrayed as being hopelessly outmatched power wise vs Toppo and Jiren. It's haxed barrier, infinite stamina and plot that is keeping him in the game.

I think Gohan did improve somewhat in the ToP since he had several hard battles and I believe Vegeta made a statement about how the Saiyans have evolved since the start of the tournament. I still think he's weaker than the Blues and Golden Freeza (not much in Freeza's case since they had a similar showing vs Dyspo), Gohan's statement about taking down Freeza if he betrays them can be chalked up as the classic "hero I will defeat the villain" line. But at the start of the tournament I'd say Gohan and 17 were equal per the production team's statement.


SSJB Goku/Vegeta (ToP Finale) = Toppo >> Golden Freeza = SSJB Goku (Start of ToP) > Gohan (ToP Finale) >> Gohan (Start of ToP) = 17

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think Gohan’s limit breaking moment was that Super Kamehameha he used to beat Koichiarator (I think that’s the name of the merged robots) since that’s the most he pushed himself, but a beyond limits Kamehameha doesn’t mean Gohan himself got stronger.

And nah 17 and Gohan are definitely Blue level. If even Goku needed Kaio-Ken to match Toppo then the two of them can’t do shit if they’re = Normal SSJB Goku at most. When did Toppo tank 17? I remember him jumping away and saying 17’s infinite stamina was dangerous and he’d need to finish it in one shot.

On top of the barrier and infinite stamina (and plot lol) I think 17’s speed was also a factor. He could spend a good while running from Toppo and was confident he could keep that up until the end.

 

[Goku9001]

@Goku9001 All 17 could do against Jiren was throw attacks that would get blocked or dodged, block punches and still be pushed back and hurt by them, and at one point he puts a dozen barriers between himself and Jiren and he flies through them like nothing. His best feat is catching Jiren off guard with a super charged blast that almost got himself killed. Him not getting blown out of the arena just by being there might have been a feat as well if this weren’t Super.

to give a more Super oriented example (Since Z clearly doesn’t follow this logic of mid battle improvements anyway), the humans all powered up considerably prior to the ToP but failed to improve in battle. Even Gohan himself, an actual Saiyan and the most gifted one, absolutely failed to improve significantly if at all in battle against Dyspo and Toppo.

Where do Frieza and 17 stand relative to Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta who explicitly match up against a Powered Up Jiren, one that is far stronger than UI Omen Goku and SSJ2 Kefla? You are still dodging around on the whole Frieza ~ Dyspo thing as well.