Vegeta vs 18 discussion

GreatSaiyaman123

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I was discussing this with [mention]Tapion[/mention] the other day and decided to bring the discussion here. How do you interpret their fight?

To me, it seems clear the Androids were superior in power, as shown by how Trunks fared against then. Vegeta’s fighting skills did close the gap however, as he and 18 went almost toe to toe until he ran out of stamina. If 18 were a strong human with limited stamina I’d say Vegeta would’ve won.
 

Captain Cadaver

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All the statements taking place after the fight make it pretty apparent that stamina wasn't the main reason for Vegeta's loss, with all statements pointing to them being simply far stronger. It seems pretty apparent from the fight too, with #18's demeanour when fighting evenly being pretty casual before becoming serious and easily defeating Vegeta after he damaged her clothes. If stamina was a main factor, it would've been noted.
 

SIAD

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I would also like to add that # 18 did not go with everything at the end of the fight.

  Vegeta thought it was Android # 17 when he felt Piccolo's Ki (Weighted). Which suggests that Piccolo (Weighted)> = Android # 18 (Vs Warriors Z).

  Everything seems to indicate that Android # 17 is not much superior to Android # 18.
 

ahill1

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Vegeta < Imperfect Cell < weighted Kamiccolo ~ #18.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Captain Cadaver said:
If stamina was a main factor, it would've been noted.

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.3-6
Trunks: “Am-amazing! I hadn’t realized that father was this strong…! To think that he’s able to fight on par with that outrageous android…!”
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”


SIAD said:
I would also like to add that # 18 did not go with everything at the end of the fight.

Vegeta thought it was Android # 17 when he felt Piccolo's Ki (Weighted). Which suggests that Piccolo (Weighted)> = Android # 18 (Vs Warriors Z).

Everything seems to indicate that Android # 17 is not much superior to Android # 18.

Vegeta asked #18 to go all out and she said she would:
4a106076db0df7f8480c8d835f27aac7.jpg
 

ahill1

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Well, she completely shattered Trunks' sword effortlessly, the same Trunks who was said not be too different from his father. If she weren't above Vegeta, how'd she be in a completely different league from Trunks?

Plus, saying she won't hold back isn't a whole proof if later evidence does suggest that. Kame-Sen'nin in the 22nd Budokai also stated he'd go all out against Tenshinhan once this latter saw through his multiple images technique, yet we're later informed he was still holding back. While the same wasn't stated for #18, that's inferable with how easily she took on someone on Vegeta's level whereas she was previously apparently fighting on par with Vegeta. So it seems suggested she was still holding back somewhat until Trunks butted in, in which case she decided to show her true self, which also makes sense with #17 stating everyone grouping up could be a threat to her.
 

Kyo

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They never look even unless you cherrypick panels which is almost what Trunks pretty much does.

Piccolo's statement is a bit weird and I feel like Toriyama just felt like he needed to throw in that infinite/finite energy distinction because it's a thing I guess. In the later chapters he clearly feels that the Saiyans are just weaker than the Androids strictly power-wise.
 

Pyro

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If we go by "rounds" as P was so fond of doing, 18 still comes out on top since they only fought evenly (or Vegeta had the advantage) in one instance, and it was quickly turned back to 18 to win it.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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ahill1 said:
Well, she completely shattered Trunks' sword effortlessly, the same Trunks who was said not be too different from his father. If she weren't above Vegeta, how'd she be in a completely different league from Trunks?

Plus, saying she won't hold back isn't a whole proof if later evidence does suggest that. Kame-Sen'nin in the 22nd Budokai also stated he'd go all out against Tenshinhan once this latter saw through his multiple images technique, yet we're later informed he was still holding back. While the same wasn't stated for #18, that's inferable with how easily she took on someone on Vegeta's level whereas she was previously apparently fighting on par with Vegeta. So it seems suggested she was still holding back somewhat until Trunks butted in, in which case she decided to show her true self, which also makes sense with #17 stating everyone grouping up could be a threat to her.

Tenshinhan only says he'll use full power in Viz. The original dialogue has him saying he’ll get serious, which could be but doesn't have to be a synonym to full power:

Chapter: 124, P2.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Alright, I’ll fight you seriously just a little bit…!”
Kame-sennin: “Wha!? Are you saying you weren’t [fighting] seriously before?”

Chapter: Chapter 90, P.14.4
Context: Tao Pai Pai says he will fight more seriously, implying he wasn’t even at full power last time. Is it a bluff or is it true?
Tao Pai Pai: “This could be fun! I’ll go at it a little more seriously for once. It'll be good for my health!”


I think the blocking of the sword speaks more about her resilience than just power. Even an inanimate metal object made by Gero (His lab's gate) required the power of a Base Saiyan to be knocked down, so naturally an Artificial Human stronger than the Super Saiyan won't have trouble blocking and breaking a sword, or non-selling a powerful blast that should've hurt her in the case of Vegeta's blast earlier.

Kyo said:
They never look even unless you cherrypick panels which is almost what Trunks pretty much does.

Piccolo's statement is a bit weird and I feel like Toriyama just felt like he needed to throw in that infinite/finite energy distinction because it's a thing I guess. In the later chapters he clearly feels that the Saiyans are just weaker than the Androids strictly power-wise.

Even though Trunks watched like 90% of Round 2? :wtf

Other than the initial exchange after #18 got serious it's a pretty even fight. #18 lands a solid blow, but then Vegeta lands a combo and a blast that he says should've hurt her. Then they proceed to go toe to toe and Trunks makes his comment. Only after Piccolo makes the point about Vegeta's stamina that she truly gets the upperhand.

Trunks' statement could've not been made at all or could've been countered by Piccolo. Piccolo saying Vegeta's running out of gas doesn't need to be tied to the idea of Vegeta rivaling #18 by any means.

After Goku defeated Freeza the later was also treated as a joke even though they had a roughly even fight. The fights are more judged by their outcomes than by perfomances. And as you said, the Saiyans are just weaker than the Androids strictly power-wise. #17 commented on Vegeta's fighting skills, which was the main reason Vegeta was able to keep up with #18. Power-wise he’s definitely weaker given #18 > Cell >= Vegeta.
 

Tapion

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No.18: "Do you think [Vegeta] was just pretending to be weak when he fought against me?"

That right there is enough to say they are nowhere on-par.
 

Pyro

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She also called him "nothing special."^^^
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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She calls him “Impressive” and “Nothing special” in the same statement. What to make of that?
 

Captain Cadaver

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
She calls him “Impressive” and “Nothing special” in the same statement. What to make of that?
The former was clearly in the context of non-Artificial Humans, whilst the latter was in comparison to herself.

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1
Context: after continuing to fight No.18
Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…”
No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?”
Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.”
 

Kyo

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Not gonna read all that but nothing Vegeta does to 18 has any effect. The bruises don’t count.

It’s untrue that she only got the upper hand after Piccolo’s comment, you admitted yourself she had it before as well.

I’m not gonna comment on fighting skill but if that’s your take then fine.
 

Keedounan

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Vegeta was nowhere near 18's level.

* Even in the fight itself, it's quite apparent that Vegeta never stood a chance. Even when Vegeta actually had the advantage, he never manage to deal any damage to 18. And it's quite apparent from her casual demeanor that she doesn't take him seriously either, despite claiming she'd go all-out.

* The way 18 put down Trunks, an opponent comparable to Goku and Vegeta in raw power, in one blow. Not to mention how she broke his sword without any apparent effort.

* The multiple statements making it clear that Vegeta was simply too weak, starting from 18 herself.

* But I think what's most damning is the fact that it took Kamiccolo to rival her strength. The same Kamiccolo that was besting Imperfect Cell. And we're talking about the same Imperfect Cell, who was said to be above any Super Saiyan up to that point.

That's just how outclassed Vegeta was.

18 ~ Kamiccolo (weights) >> Imperfect Cell > SSJ Vegeta
 

ahill1

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@GSM I meant Roshi saying he'd go all out, not Tenshinhan. If there are later evidence suggesting otherwise, then the "go all out" they say they'd doesn't end up to be the end all be all. I'm not too fond on the "skills closed the gap between them" either. If Vegeta were weaker but managed to fight on par with his skills, then he'd be her equal... The battle power difference wouldn't matter in regards to Vegeta's ability because he still managed to even it out, doesn't matter if weren't through power alone. #18 barely reacts to any of Vegeta's attempts, calls him nothing special, Trunks states they are "on so much of a different level" despite being grouped up with Vegeta and Goku... They aren't close to each other.
 

Keedounan

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Here's another, underused piece of evidence, just in case there was still any doubt.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P5.1
Cell: “I’ll definitely get hold of No.17 and No.18! Even if you guys try to stop me from reaching my perfect form, it won’t do any good! Not if Piccolo is the only one able to put up a bit of a good fight against No.17 and No.18!
 

ahill1

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Keedounan said:
Here's another, underused piece of evidence, just in case there was still any doubt.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P5.1
Cell: “I’ll definitely get hold of No.17 and No.18! Even if you guys try to stop me from reaching my perfect form, it won’t do any good! Not if Piccolo is the only one able to put up a bit of a good fight against No.17 and No.18!

Not disagreeing with the notion, but Cell stated later on that Vegeta is stronger than he had thought.
 
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