Vegeta vs 18 discussion

Captain Cadaver

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Still worth noting Cell never goes back on his assessment about holding one's own against the twins when it comes to more than just Piccolo, so I'd say that evidence would still be sufficient.
 

SIAD

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ahill1 said:
Keedounan said:
Here's another, underused piece of evidence, just in case there was still any doubt.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P5.1
Cell: “I’ll definitely get hold of No.17 and No.18! Even if you guys try to stop me from reaching my perfect form, it won’t do any good! Not if Piccolo is the only one able to put up a bit of a good fight against No.17 and No.18!

Not disagreeing with the notion, but Cell stated later on that Vegeta is stronger than he had thought.

Nor did he see Future Trunks transformed into SSJ.

  Anyway the Androids were >>> SSJs for all the claims they gave.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Back on this, I’ve read Piccolo vs 17 to see what it looks like when an Android is rivaled. The fight are more similiar than I remember; Piccolo and 17 are matched blow by blow kinda like Vegeta and 18 were and 18 praizes Piccolo as well. Only difference is that Piccolo is blatantly stated to rival 17, while Vegeta isn’t.

[mention]Keedounan[/mention] Vegeta actually held his own against 18 pretty well until his stamina was gone. He even got the upperhand once and landed a combo and complained that 18 was acting like nothing happened. To me it seems like Vegeta’s got enough skill for his reaction speed to match 18’s, but lacks the raw power for his punches to have any weight. It’s also worth noting 18 can’t feel pain as an Android.

The statements are more based on the outcome than in the actual fight. The statements in the fight portray them as close, with Trunks surprised he can fight so well and 17 thinking the Z Warriors might overwhelm 18. Dragon Books call the fight even as well.

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] He did get considerably anxious and said he “Oughta hurry”. Vegeta’s strength definitely changes his plans.
 

ahill1

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#17 seemed to be definitely in pain when Cell was beating him up. Since they have a biological foundation, it makes sense they'd feel pain as is shown in the 17 vs Cell battle. The ones regarded as being pain-free are the ones who are completely robots.

#18 never once lost her composure, while 17 was still bleeding, struggling and complimenting Piccolo as his equal, while #18 is merely impressed that a human could do that good -- but apparently not good enough to be treated as an equal ("you are nothing special"). There's a clear difference between how both fights were portrayed.
 

Keedounan

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
Vegeta actually held his own against 18 pretty well until his stamina was gone. He even got the upperhand once and landed a combo and complained that 18 was acting like nothing happened. To me it seems like Vegeta’s got enough skill for his reaction speed to match 18’s, but lacks the raw power for his punches to have any weight. It’s also worth noting 18 can’t feel pain as an Android.

At first, when they were holding back a whole lot, it seemed like Vegeta was holding his own. But even then, the two hits did jack to her, to his annoyance. Then he gets headbutted, and from there, it becomes clear where Vegeta actually stood in power, even before his stamina was starting to run out. Just look at how 18 pretty much shrugged off Vegeta's punch in the gut. Then she knees him in the gut, making him double over in pain before she knocked him aside. Afterwards, Vegeta does take an edge with his combo...but even with his blast, 18 is still relatively unscathed. The most Vegeta did was ruining her clothes. It's only later that his stamina was starting to fail him, with predictable results.

18 isn't an android. It's been explained in chapter 365 that they were actually genetically enhanced humans, which is why Cell needed to absorb them to get his Perfect form. And they do feel pain, as shown with 17. It's just that Vegeta was so weak compared to her that he couldn't deal any meaningful damage. Not even making her bleed like she did him. It's quite telling that 18 had a casual, almost emotioneless vibe in this whole fight. She didn't take Vegeta seriously at all.

The statements are more based on the outcome than in the actual fight. The statements in the fight portray them as close, with Trunks surprised he can fight so well and 17 thinking the Z Warriors might overwhelm 18. Dragon Books call the fight even as well.

If those statements were just limited to saying Vegeta has lost because of his failing stamina, I could have believed it was just based on the outcome. But even though 17 knew he would win thanks to his stamina, he has admitted to himself that Piccolo has matched his power. In fact, 18 pretty much said Piccolo "really is tough".

Here? Even in the middle of the fight, 18 told Vegeta point-blank that he was nothing special as soon as he said Goku was weaker than him. This much already contradicts the idea that they were close in power. When Vegeta goes to fight Cell, 18 says he was helpless against him, and when he does show his progress, she asks 16 if he pretended to be "weak". That means...

1)18 clearly thinks Vegeta is weak compared to herself.
2)The statements surrounding the fight were about more than his loss.

While Trunks was amazed by Vegeta's performance, he also said that he could fight the androids from the future fairly well too (keep in mind Trunks didn't know #17 and #18 were stronger than the ones in the future at the time he noted Vegeta's performance). Add to that Tien's statement about Goku not being much different from Trunks or Vegeta, and it seems clear that Trunks isn't implied to be that much weaker than him or Vegeta. Yet he was taken down in one hit, which is another evidence that 18 was going easy on Vegeta.

17 stating 18 might not beat the Z-Fighters becomes immediately doubtful when the little datas he had on them were vastly outdated. Like, Saiyan arc outdated. If even Vegeta couldn't do much more than ruining 18's clothes, it's not with two characters who are one-shot material to Nappa that he was going to make a difference. Especially when even Trunks got one-shotted. 17 has clearly underestimated his sister here.

And as indicated earlier, Kamiccolo rivaled 17 and 18. That very same Kamiccolo was said to be stronger than Imperfect Cell, to the point he could easily beat him. Imperfect Cell in turn stronger than SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Goku. Heck, even Vegeta is baffled at how much stronger than him they all are.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P14.4
Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!

Piccolo = 17 > 18 >> Imperfect Cell >> SSJ Vegeta
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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[mention]Keedounan[/mention]

Vegeta actually kept holding his own after that. 18 punches Vegeta, but he bounces back and lands his combo, to which he complains 18 "Keeps acting like nothing happened" (Whether this is a testment of 18's durability of Vegeta's powerlessness it's ambiguious). They fight evenly for a while, Trunks highlights this and Piccolo says Vegeta's getting tired. Then 18 beats him. It's a fairer fight that most people make it out to be, even if it didn't seem like Vegeta was ever going to win.

Piccolo equally couldn't seriously hurt 17, only do superficial damage somewhat more notable than the scratches Vegeta left on 18. 18's personality is that of someone cold and no-nonsense unlike his brother, this is highlighted as even in casual situations like the Boo Arc she appears almost emotionless. She's only shown to lose her composure when actively treatened in some way.


Vegeta was also praized in his fight with 18. 17 kept making note of how Vegeta was impressive throughout the fight and thought 18 would be overwhelmed if the Z Fighters joined Vegeta. Even 18 herself said Vegeta's pretty good for a human.

Trunks can "fight fairly well" compared to being taken down in two blows. Every other statement that comes out of his mouth implies he was absolutely powerless against them, inlcuding this one just minutes before his "fairly well" claim:
Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1
Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18
Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

In another statement, Kami claims Vegeta has "abilities even greater than Trunks". They might be comparable in power and speed, but Trunks' emphasized as a greenhorn, someone with little training who's only had a single real fight on his life. Even Piccolo is shown to last longer than him against the Androids in spite of being weaker.

Doubtful? How does the idea of him underestimating them makes his claim doubtful?

Teaming up is shown to be a effective method of taking stronger people, a combination of Piccolo, Kuririn and Gohan was implied to be enough to defeat Nappa, and none of them could hold their own directly. 18 is shown having her hands full against Vegeta, she can't just dispose of him with two blows and needs to wear him out to do so. A group of characters attacking her when her guard is open would make her lose her cool, even if those are Saiyan Saga level blasts.

Cell might be stronger than Vegeta and have his (And everyone else's) DNA, but that doesn't make as much of a fighter as Vegeta. Even in his perfect form, that's stated to be better than his imperfect forms in every way, he's still bested by a weaker Goku.

Surpassing the Super Saiyan doesn't mean it's by a long shot. Cell might be stronger, but Vegeta's Super Saiyan power was reason for Cell to hide and reckon he must hurry up.
 

Keedounan

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
@Keedounan

Vegeta actually kept holding his own after that. 18 punches Vegeta, but he bounces back and lands his combo, to which he complains 18 "Keeps acting like nothing happened" (Whether this is a testment of 18's durability of Vegeta's powerlessness it's ambiguious). They fight evenly for a while, Trunks highlights this and Piccolo says Vegeta's getting tired. Then 18 beats him. It's a fairer fight that most people make it out to be, even if it didn't seem like Vegeta was ever going to win.

Whether or not you think it's a testament of Vegeta's powerlessness or 18's durability, the conclusion is the same: 18's durability is superior to Vegeta's strength. And the fact that it never seemed like Vegeta would have won is precisely the point. That's also why the statements after the fight made their gap so clear.

Piccolo equally couldn't seriously hurt 17, only do superficial damage somewhat more notable than the scratches Vegeta left on 18. 18's personality is that of someone cold and no-nonsense unlike his brother, this is highlighted as even in casual situations like the Boo Arc she appears almost emotionless. She's only shown to lose her composure when actively treatened in some way.

Er, Piccolo's situation isn't quite equal to Vegeta's. His physical attacks actually dealt damage, for one, while 18 casually shrugged off Vegeta's assaults multiple times, to his annoyance. When even his ki blast dealt less damage to her than one of Piccolo's physical hits did to 17, you can't call their situations equal.


Vegeta was also praized in his fight with 18. 17 kept making note of how Vegeta was impressive throughout the fight and thought 18 would be overwhelmed if the Z Fighters joined Vegeta. Even 18 herself said Vegeta's pretty good for a human.

"For a human" being the key words. You don't call someone close to you in power "nothing special", "helpless" or "weak". While 17 did praise Vegeta, it's mostly because he didn't expect him to be as powerful as he turned out to be, rather than implying he could be anywhere close to 18.

Trunks can "fight fairly well" compared to being taken down in two blows. Every other statement that comes out of his mouth implies he was absolutely powerless against them, inlcuding this one just minutes before his "fairly well" claim:
Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1
Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18
Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

In another statement, Kami claims Vegeta has "abilities even greater than Trunks".
They might be comparable in power and speed, but Trunks' emphasized as a greenhorn, someone with little training who's only had a single real fight on his life. Even Piccolo is shown to last longer than him against the Androids in spite of being weaker.

Rest assured I have no doubt that Vegeta is stronger than Trunks. My point is that he's never implied to be that much different from him like 17 and 18 clearly were. Piccolo didn't last any longer than Trunks did. He got two-shotted too, and the only reason he was taken down after Trunks was, is because the latter joined the fight earlier, rather than any kind of fighting performance. I mean, Piccolo was taken down before he could even land a hit. And his strength wasn't even that different from a Super Saiyan either.

I doubt Vegeta's fighting experience is what made such a difference between his performance and Trunks'. After all, Tien's claim that Goku definitely can't win against 17 and 18 was based on Trunks getting two-shotted, despite the fact Goku is as much of a fighting genius as Vegeta, if not more.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Context: talking about how Trunks and co. lost to the androids
Tenshinhan: “[Trunks] is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…He definitely can’t win…! Not even Goku…”

Given their gap in strength, it seems more likely that the reason Vegeta seemed to be fighting her on even terms was because she was holding back.

Doubtful? How does the idea of him underestimating them makes his claim doubtful?

Teaming up is shown to be a effective method of taking stronger people, a combination of Piccolo, Kuririn and Gohan was implied to be enough to defeat Nappa, and none of them could hold their own directly. 18 is shown having her hands full against Vegeta, she can't just dispose of him with two blows and needs to wear him out to do so. A group of characters attacking her when her guard is open would make her lose her cool, even if those are Saiyan Saga level blasts.

Just because teaming up might have worked on Nappa, doesn't mean it would on 18. 18 isn't simply stronger than Nappa, she's on a completely different level from him! Even Initial 4th form Freeza could easily dodge the combined attacks of Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin, and they're all far, far more powerful than they were in Saiyan arc. Even in this arc, 17 and 18 could respectively two-shot Piccolo and Trunks.

And as made very clear by 18 knocking out Trunks in one hit, being comparable in power to Kamiccolo, as well as her low opinion of Vegeta's power compared to her own, she didn't quite have her hands full with him. She pretty much could have ended the fight any time she wanted.

Cell might be stronger than Vegeta and have his (And everyone else's) DNA, but that doesn't make as much of a fighter as Vegeta. Even in his perfect form, that's stated to be better than his imperfect forms in every way, he's still bested by a weaker Goku.

You must have read a completely different fight, because in the one I read, Goku was the one bested by Cell. The only time he actually took the edge over him was when he took him off-guard with a Shunkan Ido Kamehameha (something Vegeta doesn't have in his arsenal) or when he pressured him with his Ki blast spamming. He was otherwise at disadvantage in the whole fight. By the end of it, Goku was considerably out of breath, while Cell was still kicking. He even encouraged him to take a senzu bean to continue the fight.

Surpassing the Super Saiyan doesn't mean it's by a long shot. Cell might be stronger, but Vegeta's Super Saiyan power was reason for Cell to hide and reckon he must hurry up.

Vegeta has called Cell and Piccolo's ki "absurdly large" (which is an expression always used by characters far below the one with said ki) and admitted that their powers easily surpass his own. The gap is clearly not implied to be small.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…”
Context: the vanished one is Cell, and the remaining one is Piccolo

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P14.4
Vegeta: “They’re all just dicking around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!”

Even if Cell was just a bit stronger than him, Cell himself was so much weaker than Kamiccolo that sucking out the energy from one of his arms still wasn't enough to turn the tides of the fight in his favor. And Piccolo said he could have easily defeated him if he didn't escape.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P1.1
Context: after regenerating his arm while fighting Cell
Piccolo: “Cell, even if I take into account the energy you sucked from my arm, I’m still more powerful than you. Brace yourself!”

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.2
Context: after Cell escapes
Piccolo: “Damn it! I got caught off guard…! I should have been able to easily defeat him…!”

If Kamiccolo was that much stronger than Cell, then 18 (who rivals Kamiccolo) is just as much stronger than Vegeta. That's just one the many evidences that she was holding back in their fight.
 

Tapion

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
Even in his perfect form, that's stated to be better than his imperfect forms in every way, he's still bested by a weaker Goku.

What? Cell got the better of Goku in literally every instance they went hand-to-hand during their fight. Cell was always completely ahead of him throughout their fight.
 

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