Vegeta vs 18 Discussion

[Power Level Guy]

Ok, this one has always been quite difficult. I've never completely zeroed in on it like other fights, so looks like now's the time.

I'd say Vegeta and 18 are initially perfect equals, Vegeta admits he's holding back power on his BBA, and 18 admits she's holding back power altogether. I do think Vegeta is using full power in their initial clash.

18 when using her "full power", seems to be significantly stronger. And it doesn't seem that Piccolo or Trunks are really picking up on it. Vegeta looks like he's two steps behind at least.

In comparison its weird, because it feels like 18 may be much stronger than what she's even dishing out.

But for me if I have to compare it to Goku vs Cell, I'd say Vegeta is slightly closer to 18 than Goku was to Cell.

I do think Freeza vs Goku is closer than Vegeta vs 18.

Vegeta is still able to manage some offense, but it kind of feels like she's allowing it happen.

I want to look at the fight in more detail, let's discuss.

So far I'm going with something like this.

Vegeta 100
Android 18 100
Android 18 (Power-Up) 110

 

[SSJ2]

The fight does look close, but doesn't Piccolo recognize right away that Vegeta was going to be killed? Trunks was impressed by Vegeta fighting on par with 18 but Piccolo shot it down right away.

 

[Symbiote]

110 seems too low. If they were that close I don't see 18 ending the fight as easily as she did. I'd put her at like 150. I don't usually do the whole numbers thing so I could be wrong.

 

[Power Level Guy]

but doesn't Piccolo recognize right away that Vegeta was going to be killed?

Only because of stamina, not because of a power difference.

Trunks was impressed by Vegeta fighting on par with 18 but Piccolo shot it down right away.

As far as I know Piccolo agreed with Trunks, opting to tell him the reason for him to not get his hopes up is because of Vegeta's fading strength, not 18's superior strength.

 

[Yoshi]

110 seems too low. If they were that close I don't see 18 ending the fight as easily as she did. I'd put her at like 150. I don't usually do the whole numbers thing so I could be wrong.

I normally put Vegeta at 100 and #18 at 140 and #17 at 150. You're not far off.

 

[SSJ2]

I'm rereading it now. This fight reads really strangely.

I agree with what you've said about the beginning of the fight, both are dead even. Once 18 says she will stop holding back she starts pounding Vegeta. Her attacks seem to be taking a lot out of him. Maybe Vegeta wasn't quite at full power yet as he implied when he blasted 18, because he then evened up the fight again. It seems even until Piccolo says that 18 is wearing down Vegeta.

Although I'd say this, Piccolo vs 17 is an equal fight. Piccolo made 17 resort to using a barrier to protect himself. Vegeta did nothing but cosmetic damage to 18. She very clearly didn't view him as a threat and said that Vegeta and Goku were nothing special. So she's definitely letting herself get smacked around here.

I don't know what to think right now, but I think it has to be much more significant than 1.1x.

 

[ahill1]

Vegeta was on roids on that fight, so he performed somewhat better than normally.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

To be fair, Piccolo is slightly stronger than 17. Even if we ignore the small power advantage, Vegeta is clearly a bit behind so the fights aren’t really comparable.

Vegeta keeps up with her speed too well. Not sure if she really let him because she’s bothered about her clothes later.

 

[SSJ2]

It's pretty clear that 18's full power should be in another league compared to Vegeta, even when factoring in that she's a bit weaker than 17. She's showing Piccolo respect here. Vegeta was nothing more than entertainment for her. 18 being "bothered" about her clothes is not relevant whatsoever.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But 17 also shows Vegeta respect. 18 being bothered is relevant because it shows she wasn’t just standing there and taking the hits. Vegeta was fast enough to keep up. There’s even a surprise sign over her head in the panel before Vegeta’s blast lands.

I’ve compared Vegeta vs 18 to Piccolo vs 17 and they have a similar structure and length. Only difference being the coreography (17 is way more hands on) and the fact Piccolo could actually threaten 17’s life. If they had one more round before Cell arrived, 17 would’ve had a solid upperhand.

 

[SSJ2]

17 showing Vegeta respect was because he was much stronger than they expected. 18 showing respect was because Piccolo was an equal. There's a massive disparity between these.

She's allowing herself to take the hits by holding back her real power. She's not just letting him do whatever he wishes, but the very act of holding back means she is allowing it to happen.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

17 showing Vegeta respect was because he was much stronger than they expected. 18 showing respect was because Piccolo was an equal. There's a massive disparity between these.

She's allowing herself to take the hits by holding back her real power. She's not just letting him do whatever he wishes, but the very act of holding back means she is allowing it to happen.

Well Vegeta isn’t 18’s equal. Trunks and Piccolo did agree the fight was really close though.

She’s not holding back though. Her own words.

 

[SSJ2]

Well Vegeta isn’t 18’s equal. Trunks and Piccolo did agree the fight was really close though.

She’s not holding back though. Her own words.

She has to be. When did she ever say that she was going to use 100% power? All she said was that she was still holding back. Vegeta challenged her to come at him with everything but clearly that's not what happened.

Don't forget Vegeta is weaker than Imperfect Cell who wasn't even a rival to 18. You can't reconcile that if you think 18 was going all out there.

 

[Power Level Guy]

She’s not holding back though. Her own words.

She's lying.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

She has to be. When did she ever say that she was going to use 100% power? All she said was that she was still holding back. Vegeta challenged her to come at him with everything but clearly that's not what happened.

Don't forget Vegeta is weaker than Imperfect Cell who wasn't even a rival to 18. You can't reconcile that if you think 18 was going all out there.

Vegeta asked her to go all out and she said ok. There has to be a way to reconcile it, because that’s exactly how the story is told to us. At the very least 18 can’t stomp Vegeta without going all out.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Definitely not. 18 rivals Kamiccolo W/Weights who can stomp Vegeta. She was proven to be a liar

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Definitely not. 18 rivals Kamiccolo W/Weights who can stomp Vegeta. She was proven to be a liar

How one sided is SSJ Vegeta vs Weighted Kamiccolo? Judging by their meeting alone it feels like Kamiccolo 1 shots. Vegeta falls to his knees out of the form just sensing him. But between the twins it seems that only 17 can one shot him. I’m imagining Kamiccolo is like KKx3 Goku vs Vegeta, minus the KK strain.

I wanted to bring up the skill card to justify Vegeta vs 18, but Piccolo and 17 are so even. I think one guidebook says the twins have the Z Fighters’ fighting styles in their databanks or something.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Vegeta falls to his knees out of the form just sensing him.

Bro, got knocked out of the form just by sensing Piccolo. A power that Imperfect Cell couldn't beat, who Vegeta can't beat. You have to account for all of that.

18 clearly wasn't going all out dude. It was legit an even fight.

Weighted Piccolo is smashing Vegeta, he would do horrible things to him. You have to accept 18 was just holding back.

 

[sei'taer]

The exchange about whether or not Goku was stronger than Vegeta or not implies that she was in fact not going all out at that point.

I doubt she goes full power the entire fight. Once she starts fighting seriously she dominates Vegeta.