Vegeta vs Jeice

[FeatsofPower]

He was healed.

You didn’t answer the question. Explain why Vegeta is getting stronger as he is getting more tired?

He goes from around 40k to what 200k in no time as he gets more tired? Doesn’t make sense.

 

[Goku9001]

It's really not confusing. Vegeta was rapidly growing much like Gohan's and Kuririn's were as a result of his body getting closer to becoming a Super Saiyan. Vegeta even says as much which is what we finally see with Goku why he skyrockets to the millions without using Kaioken. The power nap thing is just a theory that's not supported. We're given no cues from Vegeta that suggest any sort of sleep deprivation whatsoever. I'd imagine for a species that is used to constantly battling, sleep deprivation would be something they would naturally acclimate to.

 

[Dagon]

You didn’t answer the question. Explain why Vegeta is getting stronger as he is getting more tired?

He goes from around 40k to what 200k in no time as he gets more tired? Doesn’t make sense.

His base rose so much that even in a tired state it exceeds his previous max power.

It's really not confusing. Vegeta was rapidly growing much like Gohan's and Kuririn's were as a result of his body getting closer to becoming a Super Saiyan. Vegeta even says as much which is what we finally see with Goku why he skyrockets to the millions without using Kaioken. The power nap thing is just a theory that's not supported. We're given no cues from Vegeta that suggest any sort of sleep deprivation whatsoever. I'd imagine for a species that is used to constantly battling, sleep deprivation would be something they would naturally acclimate to.

Spoiler

It's certainly a thing in the anime. The manga doesn't show this, but he takes a nap regardless. He'd have to be tired to be napping to begin with.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But then he'd treat that as a possibility, not as a sure thing. Ginyu knows Vegeta is a Saiyan like Goku, so since that may be the first time he had tried that on a Saiyans, I don't know why he'd be so sure the tides would turn unless Vegeta has shown bigger power. Goku also states if Ginyu takes Vegeta's body, it'll be all over. Goku has had only the experience that he didn't adapt to Ginyu's body the same way Ginyu didn't adapt to his body. I don't know why he'd be so sure that with Vegeta, he'd be able to access all his power. Goku can't know he was a special case and that with Vegeta, same race as him, it'd give him access to Vegeta's full power. Goku stressed the mind and body aren't the same, he didn't single out himself as an exception. He should expect the same level of difficulty in utilizing Vegeta's power, so the fact he seems sure it'd be over makes it possible Vegeta has shown greater power there than at least his base 90,000 power. It's also worth noting that Ginyu doesn't think of stealing Vegeta's body until he is beaten to a pulp. When he sees Vegeta killed Jheese he's in disbelief but doesn't think in taking his body, which, were him to access his 100%, it'd work the same, since a power >>> Jheese could easily handle Kuririn and Gohan at that moment... The thought just came to him after he felt Vegeta's blows weight when he beated him up.

Goku: “You’ll understand once you give it a try. That’s my body…Can you perform a Kaio-Ken, or even properly use its ki…?! You can’t put forth a large power unless your mind and body are one…!”

What Goku says has nothing to do with race. It sounds more like big powers require better control, specially if they come from training instead of naturally.

The question here is: Is Vegeta’s body/mind dynamic closer to Goku or Ginyu? He has better Ki control than Ginyu, but he’s nowhere near Goku.

 

[FeatsofPower]

The question here is: Is Vegeta’s body/mind dynamic closer to Goku or Ginyu? He has better Ki control than Ginyu, but he’s nowhere near Goku.

Definitely closer to Ginyu, Ginyu can alter his battle power as well he just can’t sense ki.

Ginyu brought out Tagoma’s full power and then some as well.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Let’s say the classic 250k then, just to be safe. Who’s to say it’s wrong? Vegeta being afraid is clearly him being careful and not realizing the extension of the Zenkai anyway. He shouldn’t be afraid of ~60k since his feats against Jeice put him there.

 

[ahill1]

Goku: “You’ll understand once you give it a try. That’s my body…Can you perform a Kaio-Ken, or even properly use its ki…?! You can’t put forth a large power unless your mind and body are one…!”

What Goku says has nothing to do with race. It sounds more like big powers require better control, specially if they come from training instead of naturally.

The question here is: Is Vegeta’s body/mind dynamic closer to Goku or Ginyu? He has better Ki control than Ginyu, but he’s nowhere near Goku.

I didn't say Goku specifically highlighted races, I was just saying I see no reason for Ginyu to think it'd be different in regards to accessing FP with Vegeta whose race is the same as Goku's. At least he'd be doubtful about that.

"You can't put forth a large power unless your body and mind are one". This was said in a general sense. He didn't single out himself as a special case. He had said that's my body previously because that was the body Ginyu took. He never made it a point to say it was a specific thing to himself and only... The fact he says unless your body and mind are one and doesn't hint at Ginyu choosing the wrong warrior and that with he himself specifically it wouldn't work, it means he didn't think of himself as a particular case. Why does he think that with Vegeta, Ginyu will access his 100% while he saw that wasn't the case when he took his body? He has no reason to as he doesn't specify himself as an excpetion. Granted that he knows Ginyu can't put forth the Kaioken, so the fact he thinks it's all over, from Goku's perspective, may hint at Vegeta being merely >>> 90,000. Though since Ginyu didn't know what Kaioken was and seemed to treat that as Goku's FP, it makes sense for Vegeta to have displayed a power >>> 180,000 there for Ginyu to treat his body as game changer. It'd also help if there were a statement with Ginyu making a distinction that with Vegeta's body, he'd be able to access all the power available unlike with Goku's. Also, maybe the fact he's still stressed and in disbelief Vegeta took out Jheese but doesn't try to take his body over, which just occurred to him when he felt the weight of Vegeta's blows, may speak to the power he gauged from Vegeta being the game changer there, not the fact that with Vegeta, he'd access all his power.

I think it had way more to do with Vegeta showing power that proportionally wise, would render the inability to access FP useless as in handling enemies who were eclipsing his 23,000 power, that is, a simple logic of "well if Vegeta is way above 180,000 then I can access more power even if I can't yet access the full extent of it" than the fact Goku was a special case and that with him only, Ginyu couldn't access his FP.

Makes one wonder as Ginyu should have attempted this technique before and should be aware of its weakness, though maybe Ginyu didn't even realize how weakened he was as he seemed satisfied with the power until he got the reading on the scouter, and then maybe he achieved the 120,000 by training himself and adapting to that body without realising that at first he could not... Or just those weird moments in which villains are oblivious to the weakness of their ability. The fact Ginyu doesn't even ponder "why is it different with Goku, this has never happened before" also hints this wasn't a specific thing to Goku, I'd say.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Let’s say the classic 250k then, just to be safe. Who’s to say it’s wrong? Vegeta being afraid is clearly him being careful and not realizing the extension of the Zenkai anyway. He shouldn’t be afraid of ~60k since his feats against Jeice put him there.

It's tough for me to put Vegeta there. I have to explore this one even more. I feel a certain way, yet the evidence isn't lining up exactly how I think it should. Is it just bias?

 

[ahill1]

It'd be nice if Jheese informed the reading there... It'd be one of those moments I'd like the scouter reading was specified. I think this one, and Vegeta breaking 1st form Freeza's scouter, are one of the few ones they didn't specify a reading. Maybe Toriyama himself wasn't sure what number to give Vegeta there.

 

[FeatsofPower]

It'd be nice if Jheese informed the reading there... It'd be one of those moments I'd like the scouter reading was specified. I think this one, and Vegeta breaking 1st form Freeza's scouter, are one of the few ones they didn't specify a reading. Maybe Toriyama himself wasn't sure what number to give Vegeta there.

Most likely. No way does AT intend for 250k imo.

 

[ahill1]

I bet 1st form Freeza would say if AT were pressed to give a number... "Wow, you managed to break the 60,000 barrier, I'm impressed Vegeta"

 

[Animelover5487]

I bet 1st form Freeza would say if AT were pressed to give a number... "Wow, you managed to break the 60,000 barrier, I'm impressed Vegeta"

180k didn't break Ginyu's scooter, so we know he's atleast past that mark.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@ahill1 the way you’re saying it Ginyu should have this problem with every body he steals, but it’s clearly not the case since he’s baffled by this outcome.

Are Vegeta’s body and mind one and the same? If he somehow ended with Goku’s body, would he be capable of using it as well as Goku himself? Probably not, but I see him doing better than Ginyu since Saiyans adapt fast.

180k didn't break Ginyu's scooter, so we know he's atleast past that mark.

Well that’s obvious since Vegeta is holding down Freeza. With Jeice it’s more confusing since he crushes the scouter on his hand.

As Feats said, I think not even AT really knew what to make of it here. I may not agree Ahill, but I think his logic is sound. It’s not that they know for sure Ginyu-Vegeta is going to be weaker than Vegeta, but better safe than sorry.

 

[Animelover5487]

@ahill1 the way you’re saying it Ginyu should have this problem with every body he steals, but it’s clearly not the case since he’s baffled by this outcome.

Are Vegeta’s body and mind one and the same? If he somehow ended with Goku’s body, would he be capable of using it as well as Goku himself? Probably not, but I see him doing better than Ginyu since Saiyans adapt fast.



Well that’s obvious since Vegeta is holding down Freeza. With Jeice it’s more confusing since he crushes the scouter on his hand.

As Feats said, I think not even AT really knew what to make of it here. I may not agree Ahill, but I think his logic is sound. It’s not that they know for sure Ginyu-Vegeta is going to be weaker than Vegeta, but better safe than sorry.

I think Vegeta's at 75k against Jeice. Goku should still be stronger since Vegeta healed Goku saying that he needed Goku's power in particular, Vegeta doesn't know exactly how strong Freeza is at this point just that he's alot stronger than Ginyu and his character would never let him admit to needing Goku's help if he was stronger.

The continous Zenkai/Guru Boost is real, as it appears everyone just magically gets multiple times stronger during the Freeza confrontation due to the plot.