Vegeta + Z-Team Vs 1st Form/FF Freeza

[Power Level Guy]

Damn, this is becoming more of an issue than I initially expected.

Vegeta indicates extreme confidence in help from the Z-fighters against 1st Form Freeza compared to having zero confidence in the Z-team against FF Freeza. Sure, Vegeta is buying into his own SSJ hype to think he can defeat Freeza, but nonetheless, nothing contradicts the Z-team being trash here.

Literally no one, and I mean NO ONE, is accounting for this major issue. Because it bloats the hell out of the story. Damn, this 3 million number is becoming more and more laughable every year. I have been going with 7.5 million for Goku, but honestly, it doesn't feel like it's enough. I hate to say it, but Vegeta may be >7.5 million.

Here's what I'm thinking...

1st Form Freeza 100
Vegeta 90
Z-Team 40-50

FF Freeza 100
Vegeta 90
Z-Team 10-20

There should be a tremendous difference in their ability to fight Vegeta. The narrative sets up perfectly for this as well. Vegeta is all alone and no one can help him. That's the story.

Guys, I think Vegeta is a lot closer to 10 million than 4-5 million. This is going to break my whole damn list. Damn!

 

[Kyo]

Kril 200k
Goh 1m
2F 1.5m
Pic 1.6m
3F 2.2m
Veg 5m
4F 5.5m

good enough, no?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Kril 200k
Goh 1m
2F 1.5m
Pic 1.6m
3F 2.2m
Veg 5m
4F 5.5m

good enough, no?

Well Kyo, let's stay in Creative mode first. Before we start touching the numbers, let's establish the ratios first, that's why I put the numbers like this.

Show me where I'm wrong here...


1st Form Freeza 100
Vegeta 90
Z-Team 40-50

FF Freeza 100
Vegeta 90
Z-Team 10-20


It becomes easy to "squeeze" things to make it work. But if we are to remain objective, we should always analyze gaps from "Creative Mode" first, then try to make it work on the numerical scale. It's the best way to reduce bias. For me, this is a major struggle here. Usually I've accounted for enough spacing where I have quite a lot of room to play, but this issue, which I thought I had accounted for decently enough, on a second look, is probably not enough.

This would destroy my whole list, so I'm super biased not to blow it up as I'm super happy with my list, so this is hard for me.

So yeah, let's work with the ratios first.

I think a safe place to start is to assume the Z-Team vs 1st Form Freeza is around double the strength of Z-Team vs FF Freeza. That's where I initially go when I hear the comparison.

Are you saying the Z-Team vs FF Freeza should be in the 20-30 range instead of 10-20?

 

[Kyo]

10-20 works just fine, but you have leeway with the second scenario because the Z team is not as grouped together anymore. Krillin is stuck at the same level he was at versus 1st form Freeza, Gohan is significantly weaker than Piccolo. If Vegeta is 3-3.5x stronger than Piccolo then that’s already a lot more significant than his advantage in the first scenario, and Gohan/Krillin lag behind even more. Of course in the first scenario there’s no Piccolo at all, so that’s another consideration.

 

[Power Level Guy]

10-20 works just fine, but you have leeway with the second scenario because the Z team is not as grouped together anymore.

Sure, it's fine. But what is ideal? Your best bet, how big is the difference?

Krillin is stuck at the same level he was at versus 1st form Freeza,

I don't consider Krillen to be a factor so much here in the statement. Vegeta's original statement is about Gohan and Krillen, not including Piccolo. So 2 people helping Vegeta is good enough. Piccolo and Gohan would be helping Vegeta in this circumstance against FF Freeza.

Gohan is significantly weaker than Piccolo.

Gohan should be a little stronger with his rage boost. Considering Gohan had just been rage boosted to fight 3rd Form Freeza and was now rage boosted against FF Freeza, I'd think Vegeta would factor in the two powers he's recently viewed.

If Vegeta is 3-3.5x stronger than Piccolo then that’s already a lot more significant than his advantage in the first scenario,

So if Piccolo is 33% or so, that would be fine? I think Piccolo should probably be under Krillen by a decent margin.

Put it this way. If Vegeta was fighting 1st Form Freeza with just Krillen, would his statement be much different? Ok, replace Krillen with Chaozu or someone like 80% of Krillen, at what point does Vegeta say, meh, this guy can't do anything for me?

Of course in the first scenario there’s no Piccolo at all, so that’s another consideration.

Yeah, that's what I brought up before. Don't think about the character specifically, think about the amount of people Vegeta has.

Vegeta has 2 competent people against 1st Form Freeza. Against FF Freeza he seems to indicate he has none. That's my issue. If Piccolo >> Gohan like you and GSM have been pointing out, surely Vegeta would say, well at least Piccolo can help a little. Vegeta seems to indicate Krillen on his own, without Gohan against 1st Form Freeza would be helpful.

So I'd say in regards to ratio...

1st Form Freeza > Krillen is much closer than FF Freeza > Piccolo. Do you see this angle?

 

[The Supreme Being]

It's actually worse than this, Vegeta thought they would be helpful against a hypothetical 2nd form Freeza that would be around 700k based on Zarbon's boost.

 

[Power Level Guy]

It's actually worse than this, Vegeta thought they would be helpful against a hypothetical 2nd form Freeza that would be around 700k based on Zarbon's boost.

It's quite possible. Do you really think Vegeta thinks that though? I'm not sure he can defeat transformed Freeza, he's kind of saying, let's stop the charade.

Put it this way...

He's saying, Freeza, we as a team can beat you as you are now, go ahead and stop the charade and show us your real power. He doesn't think he will power up by much though.

So damn... Maybe you are right...

That really does make things much worse... Where does he think they can win though?

 

[SSJ2]

I don't think there was any doubt that Vegeta was confident in beating expected 2nd Form Freeza.

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…And I’m in the process of becoming what you’re afraid of: a Super Saiyan…!”

He does say that he's in the "process" of becoming a Super Saiyan, but it doesn't sound like he's counting on becoming one to win. He's saying that here and now, the three of them can win if they fight together.

Even Krillin is said to be "steadily rising" though, so maybe Gohan and Krillin were still getting stronger from the potential unlock. Maybe they don't cap out where they were at the beginning of the fight.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I don't think there was any doubt that Vegeta was confident in beating expected 2nd Form Freeza.

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…And I’m in the process of becoming what you’re afraid of: a Super Saiyan…!”

He does say that he's in the "process" of becoming a Super Saiyan, but it doesn't sound like he's counting on becoming one to win. He's saying that here and now, the three of them can win if they fight together.

Even Krillin is said to be "steadily rising" though, so maybe Gohan and Krillin were still getting stronger from the potential unlock. Maybe they don't cap out where they were at the beginning of the fight.

Yeah, Vegeta outright implies they can all continue to get stronger. I don't think they do, but he's wishful of it.

But I think this statement is reflective of 1st Form Freeza. Are you sure he feels the same about Transformed Freeza?

I think he tells Freeza to transform just so they don't delay the inevitable. And he's not sure.

Hmm, win somehow or another. It seems like he's hopeful.

So they can definitely beat 1st Form Freeza, and Expected Freeza is up for grabs.

I think we can surmise that at least?

 

[Kyo]

Yes, (4th > Pic) > (Expected 2nd > Krillin) is reasonable

 

[Power Level Guy]

es, (4th > Pic) > (Expected 2nd > Krillin) is reasonable

Which is absurd. Lol.

Damn... Everyone's power level list is broken.

 

[Kyo]

you can nerf it a tiny bit if you want by accounting for Vegeta’s SSJ delusion, I suppose

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah, Vegeta outright implies they can all continue to get stronger. I don't think they do, but he's wishful of it.

But I think this statement is reflective of 1st Form Freeza. Are you sure he feels the same about Transformed Freeza?

I think he tells Freeza to transform just so they don't delay the inevitable. And he's not sure.

Hmm, win somehow or another. It seems like he's hopeful.

So they can definitely beat 1st Form Freeza, and Expected Freeza is up for grabs.

I think we can surmise that at least?

Vegeta reassures the group that Freeza won't change much so he clearly still believes they can win.

 

[SSJ2]

1st Freeza: 530,000
2nd Expected: 660,000

Vegeta: 480,000
Gohan: 350,000
Krillin: 300,000

2nd Initial: 1,060,000
-Full Power: 1,600,000

Piccolo: 1,650,000

3rd Freeza: 2,200,000

4th Initial: 4,000,000

Vegeta: 3,800,000

Vegeta doesn't need to be 5 million + imo.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Vegeta reassures the group that Freeza won't change much so he clearly still believes they can win.

If we apply Zarbon's boost to him, which is what he typically do, we have problems. So are we better off with assuming that his boost is smaller than Zarbon's? Or does he mention he will transform like Zarbon?

But yeah, you are right.

Vegeta is outright stating the group > Expected Freeza... Damn... Gohan and Krillen may even be stronger than where we have Piccolo.

1st Freeza: 530,000
2nd Expected: 660,000

Vegeta: 480,000
Gohan: 350,000
Krillin: 300,000

2nd Initial: 1,060,000
-Full Power: 1,600,000

Piccolo: 1,650,000

3rd Freeza: 2,200,000

4th Initial: 4,000,000

Vegeta: 3,800,000

Vegeta doesn't need to be 5 million + imo.

You have Piccolo at 40% of FF Freeza.

Ah I see what you did. You just boosted Krillen up even more.

It seems to be needed now. We either drastically increase the spacing between FF Freeza and the group, or we make the group closer to 1st Form Freeza.

Yeah, and you have Expected Freeza very low now...

 

[Power Level Guy]

you can nerf it a tiny bit if you want by accounting for Vegeta’s SSJ delusion, I suppose

Yeah, I'm fine with people accounting for the delusion, but there's a point where if Piccolo is at 50% of FF Freeza, or anywhere close to that, it won't make sense at all. Maybe I do have a chance here to keep things in order...

 

[SSJ2]

If we apply Zarbon's boost to him, which is what he typically do, we have problems. So are we better off with assuming that his boost is smaller than Zarbon's? Or does he mention he will transform like Zarbon?

But yeah, you are right.

Vegeta is outright stating the group > Expected Freeza... Damn... Gohan and Krillen may even be stronger than where we have Piccolo.

You have Piccolo at 40% of FF Freeza.

Ah I see what you did. You just boosted Krillen up even more.

It seems to be needed now. We either drastically increase the spacing between FF Freeza and the group, or we make the group closer to 1st Form Freeza.

Yeah, and you have Expected Freeza very low now...

Yeah I think it's fair to have Gohan and Krillin that high given Vegeta's confidence in them. They are already borderline fodder at that level, so we have to be realistic and ask how else they could help if they weren't that strong? Of course you can argue that they could be distractions, but Vegeta is clear that it's their power that is allowing them to be of aid here.

I nerfed Expected Freeza's boost to be slightly lower than Zarbons. But it's still in the same neighbourhood, 1.25x vs 1.33x. Maybe Vegeta is expecting Freeza's to be slightly lower because Freeza is already astronomically powerful.

 

[The Supreme Being]

Ah I see what you did. You just boosted Krillen up even more.

It seems to be needed now. We either drastically increase the spacing between FF Freeza and the group, or we make the group closer to 1st Form Freeza.

I think there is no other possibility, Vegeta thought that Krillin would be helpful against someone much stronger than him which would be impossible if Krillin is like 150k and 1st Form Freeza can already tank his attacks. We have to boost Gohan and Krillin as much as possible for all this to work.

 

[GSM123]

I don’t think Kuririn should be 300k. Look how scared he and Gohan are of Freeza even before he powers up. Kuririn >= Piccolo is also bad.

Gohan said they only might manage something against 1st form Freeza. Vegeta wanting to beat 2nd form Freeza was definitely just wishful thinking.

 

[SSJ2]

Even against 530K, the gaps I provided should be considered wishful thinking. Vegeta is barely rivaling Freeza and Gohan and Krillin are both one shot material. There's not much room to go lower. Just make Piccolo 350k.