Vegetto vs Gogeta
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They're equals 
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Gohan Boo's estimations, as well as Goku's own in the anime, place Gogeta above Gotenks Boo but below Gohan Boo, so SS3 Gogeta ~ Base Vegetto would seem to be the case. However, that's without taking into account the rival boost, which could be one of significance considering Elder Kaioshin bothered to point it out as a factor. That said, I'd say that SSJ Vegetto >> SS3 Gogeta >> Base Vegetto.
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Well, I'd just like to see the way CC would present them... also, we are in a DB forum, I don't think it's too outstanding for us to ask someone to present the argument for why they think such thing.
Like I said in the OP, Vegetto >> Gogeta seems to be evident, but I'd still like to see the arguments being presented, if it's possible.
Like I said in the OP, Vegetto >> Gogeta seems to be evident, but I'd still like to see the arguments being presented, if it's possible.
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#1 - Elder Kaioshin states Potara is superior to Metamoran. Whilst you could argue it was due to the lack of a time limit, I doubt he'd bother to factor that in if, assuming Gogeta = Vegetto, their fusion could kill Boo in seconds should they wish.ahill1 said:
#2 - Gohan Boo believes a Goku/Vegeta fusion should be no match for him. Anime-wise, Goku even concurs and states specifically Potara is the only way. Moreover, given the kids aren't leagues below the adults, it makes little sense to have Gogeta several times stronger than Gotenks in the same form without factoring in the rival boost and even then, you'd have a tough order trying to say it was such a factor to boost Gogeta's power several-fold from the norm.
#3 - Following on from that point, Gohan Boo's reaction to Base Vegetto's power implies it exceeded what estimations he made on Goku/Vegeta's fusion.
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Before arguing this, I'd like to say that I am not trying to troll here and I'd likely just be playing devil's advocate here, since Vegetto >>> Gogeta seems already set on most people's mind. So, I hope that when offering some counter arguments, people don't see me as a troll.
First of all, Vegetto being considerably above Gogeta was something that I have believed since always and have even done a huge topic today presenting the arguments for Vegetto >> Gogeta, but when reading many topics about this tangent, I have ran into many counter arguments about such topic that I'd like to discuss with you guys. I don't want to sound like a contrarian person and I know I even admitted Gogeta was outclassed in power by Vegetto in the OP, but I'd still be interested in seeing what you guys think about some counter arguments for this matter, which then may be seen as me maybe defending a position that is in general not supported by people and even by the manga. Still though:
Regarding old Kaioshin's statement, here's what he said according to Herms:
Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P6.2-6
Context: Elder Kaioshin gives the Potara to Goku
Elder Kaioshin: “Here! Put this Potara on your left ear! [ ] Put the other one on Gohan’s ear. Just by doing that, you two will be able to merge together! Like with Fusion.”
Goku: “Huh! Re-really!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “Of course. And what’s more, the effect is greater than with Fusion! This has been the trump card treasure of the Kaioshins since long ago.”
He stated that the "effect" is greater than with Fusion... does it inherently mean Vegetto is stronger though? He stated that the "effect" is greater, and with the time limit being already outright regarded as a weakness (to the point Gotenks likely didn't defeat Boo once and for all because of it), a lack of time limit could be considered as a "greater effect", even though the wording didn't ouright state such. So, I'd say that Elder Kaioshin's wording seems to be kind of too vague here for us to denote a power difference between the two methods. He probably didn't mean "joining without the need to do the steps to fuse" as a greater effect considering the Potara was introducced due to this weakness and he just explained Goku how he could fuse instantly with Gohan just by putting the earing on opposing ears, and the "greater effect" was treated merely as a bonus... but I'd still argue it's a bit uncertain whether that meant the lack of time limit or simply the Potara also providing a bigger power boost.
Granted that the lack of time limit is mentioned separately, which people use to conclude as a way to attribute Kaioshin's line as denoting a bigger power boost, but the Potara's amazing power was also mentioned separately by Elder Kaioshin when this latter stated he thinks not even Super Saiyajin would be necessary for Gokhan's succeeding against Boo:
Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”
So, wouldn't that count as the Potara's power being also mentioned separately and therefore invalidating the "greater effects has to mean power since the other two advanatges were mentioned separately" argument?
First of all, Vegetto being considerably above Gogeta was something that I have believed since always and have even done a huge topic today presenting the arguments for Vegetto >> Gogeta, but when reading many topics about this tangent, I have ran into many counter arguments about such topic that I'd like to discuss with you guys. I don't want to sound like a contrarian person and I know I even admitted Gogeta was outclassed in power by Vegetto in the OP, but I'd still be interested in seeing what you guys think about some counter arguments for this matter, which then may be seen as me maybe defending a position that is in general not supported by people and even by the manga. Still though:
Regarding old Kaioshin's statement, here's what he said according to Herms:
Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P6.2-6
Context: Elder Kaioshin gives the Potara to Goku
Elder Kaioshin: “Here! Put this Potara on your left ear! [ ] Put the other one on Gohan’s ear. Just by doing that, you two will be able to merge together! Like with Fusion.”
Goku: “Huh! Re-really!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “Of course. And what’s more, the effect is greater than with Fusion! This has been the trump card treasure of the Kaioshins since long ago.”
He stated that the "effect" is greater than with Fusion... does it inherently mean Vegetto is stronger though? He stated that the "effect" is greater, and with the time limit being already outright regarded as a weakness (to the point Gotenks likely didn't defeat Boo once and for all because of it), a lack of time limit could be considered as a "greater effect", even though the wording didn't ouright state such. So, I'd say that Elder Kaioshin's wording seems to be kind of too vague here for us to denote a power difference between the two methods. He probably didn't mean "joining without the need to do the steps to fuse" as a greater effect considering the Potara was introducced due to this weakness and he just explained Goku how he could fuse instantly with Gohan just by putting the earing on opposing ears, and the "greater effect" was treated merely as a bonus... but I'd still argue it's a bit uncertain whether that meant the lack of time limit or simply the Potara also providing a bigger power boost.
Granted that the lack of time limit is mentioned separately, which people use to conclude as a way to attribute Kaioshin's line as denoting a bigger power boost, but the Potara's amazing power was also mentioned separately by Elder Kaioshin when this latter stated he thinks not even Super Saiyajin would be necessary for Gokhan's succeeding against Boo:
Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”
So, wouldn't that count as the Potara's power being also mentioned separately and therefore invalidating the "greater effects has to mean power since the other two advanatges were mentioned separately" argument?
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I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this point, considering the last statement by Elder Kaioshin seems to set in stone the idea of Potara being far above Metamoran fusion.
Even setting that aside for now, whilst the part about the effect could still refer to the time limit, I don't see that as a necessity. In Gotenks' case, he was both messing around due to his arrogance and not in a completely different league from Boo. In the case brought forth by Elder Kaioshin, Base Gokhan alone would be enough to stomp Boo, so I don't see why he'd factor the time limit at that point. Regardless of whether he was or not, the statement about "Potara is just that amazing" sets Potara > Metamoran in stone anyway.
Even setting that aside for now, whilst the part about the effect could still refer to the time limit, I don't see that as a necessity. In Gotenks' case, he was both messing around due to his arrogance and not in a completely different league from Boo. In the case brought forth by Elder Kaioshin, Base Gokhan alone would be enough to stomp Boo, so I don't see why he'd factor the time limit at that point. Regardless of whether he was or not, the statement about "Potara is just that amazing" sets Potara > Metamoran in stone anyway.
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That's true, but we also see later on that a lack of a time limit is something he bothers in considering as a plus for the Potara method, as he is seemingly smiling when Goku brings it up and mentions that the Potara doesn't have such weakness.CC said:
True, but considering that, as you said in your first post, Elder Kaioshin mentioned the rival boost as something that would make the fusion "definitely" the strongest, isn't it possible that Boo's estimations was a bit off due to a fusion between Goku and Vegeta benefiting from such a power boost, which should also logically be a thing for Gogeta? Also, Elder Kaioshin calls Kibitoshin an idiot once he thinks the Potara is simply that amazing, saying it's because those two have joined together that Vegetto is that amazing, seemingly emphasizing the individual who merged through the Potara moreso than the method itself. This reason could also explain Boohan's reaction to base Vegetto being formed.
Again, I don't wish to be a contrarian poster, but I think some of those points seem valid enough as a counter argument and would like to see your guys counter for those counter arguments before adopting Vegetto being considerably stronger as an undisputable thing.
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Whilst I agree that Boo definitely underestimated the fusion. The question is though, to what extent? The way Elder Kaioshin referred to their rival boost made it sound as though it was more of a secondary thing. That being said, Gogeta still shouldn't end up being several times stronger than Boo or anything, given the gap between the kids and adults, and therefore Gotenks and Gogeta, shouldn't be absolutely monstrous.ahill1 said:
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It's true that Elder Kaioshin seems to think that a Potara fusion between Goku and Gohan would be enough to eclipse Bootenks in base alone, whereas Goku didn't seem to copy with the fact of having to fight in base alone as seen when Elder Kaioshin does say he may not turn into a SSJ before fusing, but it's interesting to notice two things:Captain Cadaver said:
--> Elder Kaioshin didn't seem so sure based on his wording, as he said they 'probably' won't even need the transformation to wreck Boo;
--> Elder Kaioshin knows that the ones doing fusion don't need to match their powers accordingly for performing it, whereas with fusion both fuseers have to be exactly at the same battle power. What is stopping one from saying that a Potara Gokhan would just end up more powerful than a Metamorian one due to Gohan not needing to match his battle power with Goku's whilst performing the Potara, whereas in the Dance Gohan suppressing would still be a need, therefore produccing a warrior weak enough that SSJ would still be needed? And then, consequently, this lack of needing in suppressing down the BP would justify Potara Gokhan being 'probably' strong enough to take out Boo in base alone whereas ssj is needed in the Dance, and not a "superior power boost from the method itself"...
I'd like to see your take on those.
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SSJ2 said:
Simplexible told me Gogeta = Vegerot. Fuck off with this trolling
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SSJ3 Gogeta > Base Vegerot
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Using the manga, I would say that Gogeta shouldn't be massively above Gotenks in any form, I'd say an SS3 Gogeta could probably beat Ultimate Gohan but I don't see him taking on Bootenks or Boohan.
Since SS3 Gotenks, Super Boo and Ultimate Gohan are all in the same ballpark, I don't think Bootenks or Boohan would be more than twice as strong as they were before. In the manga, Vegetto also transforms immediately when he shows up but it's also implied he's not using a lot of his SS power to kick Boohan's ass.
This should probably put Base Vegetto anywhere between SS2 Gotenks & Gogeta in terms of power, meaning he wouldn't need to boot himself with SS1 with anything over x10-15 to completely trounce everyone else in top tier of the Boo arc.
Since SS3 Gotenks, Super Boo and Ultimate Gohan are all in the same ballpark, I don't think Bootenks or Boohan would be more than twice as strong as they were before. In the manga, Vegetto also transforms immediately when he shows up but it's also implied he's not using a lot of his SS power to kick Boohan's ass.
This should probably put Base Vegetto anywhere between SS2 Gotenks & Gogeta in terms of power, meaning he wouldn't need to boot himself with SS1 with anything over x10-15 to completely trounce everyone else in top tier of the Boo arc.
