Was Vegeta 500k All the time after Recoome Zenkai?

KyuubiAhri

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After Vegeta ate the senzu bean, did he immediately jump to 500k?

It seems unlikely as he was still in awe of Goku's 60K power and Goku himself said he only "might" be able to beat Jeice

What do you think?
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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He has to be. Those theories about him being tired or getting a continuous zenkai don't make any sense. Most likely explanation is that he hadn't noticed how strong he'd become yet.
 

SSJ2

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He has to be. Those theories about him being tired or getting a continuous zenkai don't make any sense. Most likely explanation is that he hadn't noticed how strong he'd become yet.
Vegeta literally states that his power is still increasing after Jeice saw his power level. It was no ordinary boost.
 

Mystic b4 He Got Laid

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According to Angelfire Vegeta was 60k, to justify Goku being much stronger than him. Then he had the nap to end all naps. :rape1
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Vegeta literally states that his power is still increasing after Jeice saw his power level. It was no ordinary boost.

But he tells Freeza basically the same thing. He's going to continue fighting and getting stronger until he's a SSJ.
 

Son.Gohan84

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I would say

Vegeta (Recoome fight) 29,000
Vegeta (Zenkai) 60,000 to 75,000 (and increasing)
Vegeta (Nap) 515,000

He seemed afraid to fight Goku/Ginyu. I think he was tired and the nap powered him up (rested).
 

SSJ2

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But he tells Freeza basically the same thing. He's going to continue fighting and getting stronger until he's a SSJ.
There was still some validity to what he was saying. After saying that, an ordinary zenkai gave him a 5x increase. It was clear his body was not responding in the same way that it had his entire life, and I think an extended "zenkai" if you want to call it that is not out of the realm.

I think it makes more sense for his power to be increasing over time as opposed to him somehow not knowing his own power level. I can't think of one instance where someone had no concept of their own strength.
 

ahill1

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After Vegeta ate the senzu bean, did he immediately jump to 500k?

It seems unlikely as he was still in awe of Goku's 60K power and Goku himself said he only "might" be able to beat Jeice

What do you think?
Not initially imo, I think he was slowly getting the power up. He seemed nervous once Ginyu appeared there in Goku's body announcing that he could up his battle power to 180,000. I think that when he fought Jheese, Vegeta realized that his power up wasn't an ordinary one, like if he got a sudden increase there that made him notice it was an unusual power up. But I don't know if he could increase his battle power up to ~ 500,000 yet, when he did so vs Freeza, Kuririn was in awe, saying Vegeta broke another barrier or something like this. I think he was ~ 250,000 vs Jheese, maybe after Freeza got there, he got a second wind of that power feeling that was released totally then, like another dose that his body felt when Freeza cornered them.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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I think it makes more sense for his power to be increasing over time as opposed to him somehow not knowing his own power level. I can't think of one instance where someone had no concept of their own strength.

Really? That happens all the time. Kuririn at the 21st Budokai, the boys thinking they won’t kill 18 (though they might have overestimated her), Gohan in absolute denial that he’s stronger than Goku at the CG, Kuririn and Gohan having to be told their powers are rising when they fight Freeza, Vegeta thinking he’s stronger than Freeza after his last zenkai, Goku accidentally tapping Chi-Chi through the wall, Karin tellin Goku he got stronger despite the holy water being fake…

Like, do you know the depths of your strength without testing yourself? Granted these guys can sense Ki, but sometimes they just don't. And what is a delayed zenkai if not Vegeta slowling getting the grasp of his power? The only difference is that I think he could’ve tapped into 500k vs Jeice if he wanted, but right after the senzu he was too impressed about Goku to realize his own strength.
 

SSJ2

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These examples are all explainable though. Krillin at the 21st has no concept of Ki and was psychologically in his own head. The boys against 18 is explained as you said. Gohan wasn't in denial about being stronger than the level Goku displayed, he simply thought Goku was holding back his full power. Gohan and Krillin's power rising is exactly the same thing you are arguing against with Vegeta. Vegeta against 4th form Freeza, Vegeta was only truly outclassed when Freeza raised his speed, and then obviously the psychological delusion he was dealing with about being a Super Saiyan.

The point being, there are no reasons why Vegeta would be underestimating himself against Jeice. He literally told Jeice to check the scouter because he was so sure of his own ability.
 

Warmmedown

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It's possible Vegeta's confidence was shaken or he was lacking in interoception after his senzu - due to being so focused on Goku's power up and the possibility of someone else beating him to SSJ - so he didn't notice his ki upgrade initially.

But by the time he meets 530K 1st form Freeza, thought he's nervous, he's still confident enough to fight him (rather than trying to use a distraction to escape). And then rather than trying to inflict maximum damage on Freeza while they're evenly matched, he tells him to transform - not the actions he'd take if unconfident about being near 500K (Btw, did he have a death wish? Was he hoping fighting Freeza's 2nd form could allow him to unlock SSJ?). He obviously believed he was close to 530K (I'd say at mimumum however much weaker Piccolo was than Nappa, but before meeting Freeza. I'm going through the pages to see if there's any clue when he believed it or when he powered up.

In the below page (ch283), he seems to realise he's stronger than Jeice - he says "tch, so you knew" when Goku says "you've recovered from near death, your power should've gone up. [Jeice] is no longer an opponent you can't handle". If he knew he's significantly stronger than what Goku showed vs Burta/Jeice, he probably would've been offended by being compared to Jeice and said that he's stronger. His ego is too big for him to focus on getting the dragon balls, rather than one-upping Goku first.
He also says later (second image below) that Goku and Ginyu have equal PLs and will take each other out to leave Vegeta to do as he pleases (ie use the dragon balls) - if he's already decently above Goku and Ginyu (90-100K is enough), he'd already be free to do as he pleases, without them weakening each other first. It all points to Vegeta believing he's only moderately stronger than Jeice.
(Note: it's also possible Vegeta's "tch, so you knew" was only referring to Goku's knowledge of zenkais and not to Vegeta's ability to handle Jeice - I don't remember if either Vegeta/Goku had discussed the existence of zenkais before this chapter or if Krillin/Gohan had told Vegeta they knew about zenkais - and that when Vegeta ran away he wasn't 100% sure if he could handle Jeice and he only became sure of it after spending some time alone.)
Vegetazenkaich283pg13.jpg

Anyway, he even says "once I'm granted eternal life I'll finally have a chance of besting Freeza" - indicating he doesn't believe he's near Freeza's 530K PL, as to even have a chance he needs to be immortal first. If he was 500K or so, he'd have a chance even without immortality - we see he believes this later, when he challenges Freeza to turn to his 2nd form, with zero doubt in his ability to win until he actually feels the 2nd form's ki.
Vegetafreeza-ch284.jpg

Next, Vegeta stops Jeice (ch289, pg7), so he can get the password from Krillin/Gohan and possibly to help him fight Freeza if he doesn't get immortality in time (since he's seen the invocation not work). I was also thinking he could've fought Jeice because he thinks bloodlust will help him be a SSJ (I find the psychological stuff interesting), until I realised what the "invocation" means lol.
Anyway, below he says he's "just now realised" something about his power. This is the earliest I think he knows he's become very strong. (Or it could be the (false) belief he could be a SSJ.) We can say with 100% certainty that Vegeta here senses he's much stronger than Jeice, because he the way he's talking is how he talks to opponents when he's confident he's able to crush them (eg Cui, Dodoria, 1st form Zarbon). And his self-confidence makes me think he can't be underestimating of his power at this point, even if he may have been earlier. He's feeling his power as much as he can, he's revelling in it to convince himself he's the most powerful saiyan who ever lived, ever will live and ever could live.
Is he saying his PL's continuously rising? He's not saying that. It could just be previous growth.
He also says he's gone beyond the normal saiyan limits. Does this definitively mean he believes he's currently surpassed Goku? No - he could still believe he's weaker than Goku or only as strong as him. It just refers to him surpassing the typical ≈15-20K "normal" limit of saiyan power. But he surpassed that a while ago, so why would he only start thinking about it now? It's simply more of his narcissistic delusion (which often helps him to achieve things, until he goes too far lol), awaked by a fear of another saiiyan becoming a SSJ, so he's started to delude himself into believing all his power increases on Namek (starting with Zarbon) were due to him being a SSJ-in-waiting. He rationally should think "Goku and Gohan have also gone past those limits", but he's just going crazy - he says (paraphrasing) it's "not just because I'm gifted" - he knows the three saiyans on Namek are all gifted, but he believes his increase is due to some other special quality, even though he has zero evidence of it.
But yeh as I said, I think he's realised whatever power he has here.
Vegetarealisesch289.jpg

Then he easily kills Jeice without difficulty, though he does put some effort into this attacks. After killing Jeice he believes/knows at minimum he's roughly as strong as Goku and Ginyu were when he left them behind.

After Ginyu is defeated, Vegeta doesn't kill the earthlings. He gives the reason that he needs help to summon the dragon (they're on good terms with the Namekians) and that Goku could help in the fight with Freeza and in his mind thinks he'll kill them after defeating Freeza. What's this say about his belief in his power? He doesn't know Dende will arrive before Goku's zenkai, so has to be confident he's at minimum as strong as what Goku will be post-zenkai. This is because he needs to be able to either kill Goku before fighting Freeza (while beating up a Namekian to get the password/translation to wish for immortality - for this he needs to be much stronger than Goku) or after fighting Freeza (kill Freeza in a hard battle, then immediately kill Goku - he only needs to be as strong as Goku, since he'll take advantage of Goku's guard being down).
When he finds out about Porunga being summoned, he tells them they need to make him immortal to beat Freeza - I don't think this was his original plan, I believe he just planned to beat the password out of whoever he needed to, but now he's in a rush as he senses Freeza arriving, so instead of taking time to beat it out of them, he's trying to convince them. He'd never seen what a dragon summoning looks like before this, so he had no idea it would be big enough to attract Freeza from anywhere on the planet - if he had known that, then yeh his plan would have probably been to convince them instead, so he doesn't have to spend too long with Porunga summoned/the sky being black.

summary: I dunno tbh.

BUT my opinion after reading it is I do think Vegeta just didn't know the depths of his own power. 1. He was freaked out by Goku. 2. Then he talked about Goku/Ginyu needing to be out of the way. 3. Then he got all super confident later, after spending a little time on his own - he realised the power here. 4. Then he tells Freeza that Gohan is still getting stronger - why wouldn't he also say "I'm getting stronger"? Because he was never getting stronger continuously - he just suddenly realised his power before talking to Jeice.
 

Dagon

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Vegeta takes a nap in the manga nonetheless, and the anime makes a more dramatic point about Vegeta fighting off sleep deprivation. I think it's fine to have him not have his full power. He's healed but still has the sleeplessness which Senzu don't affect./
 

KyuubiAhri

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Nice points all of you

Some clown on other debating site told me "i make myself look like a fool" for thinking Vegeta wasn't 500k immediately after his Recoome Zenkai
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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These examples are all explainable though. Krillin at the 21st has no concept of Ki and was psychologically in his own head. The boys against 18 is explained as you said. Gohan wasn't in denial about being stronger than the level Goku displayed, he simply thought Goku was holding back his full power. Gohan and Krillin's power rising is exactly the same thing you are arguing against with Vegeta. Vegeta against 4th form Freeza, Vegeta was only truly outclassed when Freeza raised his speed, and then obviously the psychological delusion he was dealing with about being a Super Saiyan.

The point being, there are no reasons why Vegeta would be underestimating himself against Jeice. He literally told Jeice to check the scouter because he was so sure of his own ability.

Oh I thought we were talking about right when Vegeta ate the senzu and was drooling all over ~60k Goku. When he fights Jesse he definitely knows his power, and his attitude suggests he’s above Goku. That’s why I think he was 500k right off the bat (but was obviously suppressed the whole time before Freeza).
 

SSJ2

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Oh I thought we were talking about right when Vegeta ate the senzu and was drooling all over ~60k Goku. When he fights Jesse he definitely knows his power, and his attitude suggests he’s above Goku. That’s why I think he was 500k right off the bat (but was obviously suppressed the whole time before Freeza).
Fair enough then. I still disagree with the premise because it doesn't seem implied that Vegeta can one shot Goku. Vegeta was still treating Goku like the top dog, and even if he was factoring in Kaioken, Vegeta would still outstrip Goku easily if he was 500k there.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Fair enough then. I still disagree with the premise because it doesn't seem implied that Vegeta can one shot Goku. Vegeta was still treating Goku like the top dog, and even if he was factoring in Kaioken, Vegeta would still outstrip Goku easily if he was 500k there.

Going by the Ginyu-Goku stuff alone there isn’t much to go by so I just default to Vegeta’s next fight to gauge him, but even then Vegeta was already bragging about being close to becoming a SSJ.
 

ScottyFamalam

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Vegeeta was literally peeing his pants over Gokuu using even less than 90k to one-shot Reac'm. He wasn't 500k then lol

It was clearly a gradual increase. His power was still increasing when he confronted Freeza; it just wasn't enough to deal with Forms 2 or 3 until he got his last Zenkai.

His power never hit or exceeded 500k before his last Zenkai, though. Vegeeta was out of breath after clashing Freeza, who was perfectly calm. He was most likely 250k like the Daizenshuu says.
 

KyuubiAhri

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. Vegeeta was out of breath after clashing Freeza, who was perfectly calm. He was most likely 250k like the Daizenshuu says.
Literally impossible

250 is less than half of 530. A one shot gap
Yet Freeza couldn’t overpower Vegeta. With such a gap Freezas first blow would have connected instead of the grapple scene
 

KyuubiAhri

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Freeza was obviously holding back, but Vegeeta could be 265k and it wouldn't make much of a difference
Nope. Freeza literally powered up to full power a few panels before.
Besides, he was royally pissed at Vegeta ruining his wish for eternal life and dashed at him in pure rage. And still failed to overpower him.

Even then, Vegeta goaded Freeza into transforming. He thought they could still win, except Freeza's power shot up much more than he ever dared hope. Vegeta can't be 250K

Vegeta being 250K is the biggest BS and makes no sense on multiple levels
 

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