What do you think between Vegeta SSJB (Pseudo UI) vs Goku SSJB (Episode 122)?
- Thread starter SIAD
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I think both are relatively equal. Once they use KKx20 Blue and Blue Evolved, they're equals up until Vegeta's pride boost. I think that falls in line with their Blue levels being equal. The reason why Vegeta performed better outright is because Jiren slowly ramped himself up to deal with Vegeta and Goku had to continue where Vegeta left off.
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Yes but at this point, Goku can maintain KKx20 Blue for a notable period of time.
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It’s hard to tell how strong Vegeta is here tbh. Vegeta said Jiren was holding back on him, so he’s definitely going to be caught off guard when Vegeta suddenly reads his movements.
I’m also not sure it Vegeta actually powered up here or just got some UI-like level of skill like Manga Roshi.
I’m also not sure it Vegeta actually powered up here or just got some UI-like level of skill like Manga Roshi.
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Honestly I think it is just showing that Vegeta's Blue form is gradually ascending to a power beyond regular Blue. Evolution is tbh just Blue pushed far past its limits.
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Do you think Jiren lowered his power to match Vegeta somewhat? Vegeta seemed to get owned harder as his initial SSBJE self against Hakaishin Toppo than he did as a regular Blue against Jiren (aside from that Owarida blast that knocked him out of Blue).
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Vegeta says Jiren has the highest Ki he ever felt and then says he was faster and stronger vs Goku. Sounds like Jiren was just pulling his punches.
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No. Jiren is in shock when Vegeta managed to breach his defenses. Goku is in shock at Vegeta dodging Jiren's bullet hell punches, Tenshinhan and Kuririn both claim that Vegeta breached Jiren's energy. Belmod even shows concern at what is happening which would be odd if Jiren suddenly lowered his power against Vegeta.
Vegeta is strictly taunting Jiren because Vegeta wants to trigger Ultra Instinct. Whis and Beerus says as much when Vegeta begins to overwhelm Jiren.
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It's pretty ridiculous. I think the implication given was that Vegeta was pushing Jiren to use more power so he could awaken his own limit-breaking power which eventually culminated into Blue Evolved. I think the logic is that Vegeta was rapidly growing like the Saiyans did back on Namek since they were drawing closer to becoming a Super Saiyan.
After Vegeta is pummeled by Jiren, he does go on to mention that "Jiren isn't even at full strength!" as if this was some new realization they were making. It wouldn't make sense if Jiren used more power against UI Omen Goku than he did against the Blue Saiyans in Episode 122 because that statement would be pointless. The Saiyans just got insanely more powerful and Vegeta was trying to draw closer to a new higher power which heightened his growth.
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Episode: 122
Time: 13:30-13:32
Context: Vegeta kicked Jiren in the stomach
Vegeta: "You were faster and stronger when you fought Kakarot!"
What is Vegeta referring to here? The power Jiren used earlier in that episode or the power Jiren had vs UI Goku? @Papasmurf @Goku9001
Time: 13:30-13:32
Context: Vegeta kicked Jiren in the stomach
Vegeta: "You were faster and stronger when you fought Kakarot!"
What is Vegeta referring to here? The power Jiren used earlier in that episode or the power Jiren had vs UI Goku? @Papasmurf @Goku9001
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We have a statement saying Jiren is holding back and none that Vegeta got stronger, but the conclusion is that Vegeta powered up?
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What're you talking about? Belmod is shocked by the potential of Saiyans when Vegeta begins to overpower Jiren. We are blatantly told that Vegeta is trying to shatter his limits as Goku did to obtain Ultra Instinct.We have a statement saying Jiren is holding back and none that Vegeta got stronger, but the conclusion is that Vegeta powered up?
Look at the context and it's very clear why Vegeta makes that statement. No one acts like Jiren lowered his power against Vegeta, that's a notion that's completely unsupported.
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It's the other way around. The characters deduce Vegeta is trying to get UI by the way he's fighting, and nobody even says Vegeta's power is rising until he starts to charge the Final Flash. When Jiren knocks him down the first time we even see Vegeta analyzing his moves as he fights Goku, and Piccolo even says as much when Vegeta lands his first blow.
Also if Jiren is using the same power as before then shouldn't Vegeta have unlocked UI right there? He's got the power and the fighting style and is even pushing beyond his limits when Jiren regains the upperhand.
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First, let's look at the title of the episode. Episode 122 is titled "With his Pride on the Line! Vegeta's Challenge to Be the Strongest!" Pretty obvious what the entails. Vegeta's Saiyan pride is what's causing him to challenge Jiren. He challenges Jiren because he wants to be the strongest. By fighting Jiren, he will be the strongest by obtaining Ultra Instinct which is as Whis says. Whis makes that statement in response to everyone noticing how Vegeta is pushing back against Jiren even harder to the point where Jiren can no longer fight back.
After Vegeta breaches Jiren's lightning fast bullet-hell punches, Vegeta begins overwhelming Jiren and pushes him back. Here's what Belmod says in response to Vegeta overwhelming Jiren.
Episode: 122
Time: 12:46-12:52
Context: Vegeta begins pushing back Jiren.
Belmod: What's wrong, Jiren?!
Kaioshin: Is he... winning?
This is when Whis confirms that Vegeta is attempting to obtain Ultra Instinct. Afterwards, we see Vegeta literally zip around Jiren and then zip around his line of sight again to land a critical blow. That's a clear demonstration of speed. It's at this moment where Vegeta begins to taunt Jiren.
Episode: 122
Time: 13:30-13:34
Context: Vegeta lands another critical blow on Jiren.
Vegeta: You were faster and stronger when you fought Kakarot!"
This goes against Vegeta's character. Normally he's filled with confidence but he knows Jiren isn't using his full power. He's pressuring Jiren so that he can push himself even further beyond his limits to obtain Ultra Instinct which is why Whis' statement is made under that context. It's not just a reference to that specific moment in time but during the fight as a whole.
Still not convinced? Let's take another look after Vegeta recovers against Jiren.
Episode: 123
Time: 18:52-19:06
Context: Vegeta begins powering up with Goku against Jiren.
Vegeta: I have to keep my promise to him. That's why I'll surpass my limits in my own way! And, Jiren, I'll beat you!
Vegeta makes it a clear point that he wants to beat Jiren as early as Episode 122. He does so by trying to obtain Ultra Instinct which he knows from watching Goku fight is a limit-shattering ability. Once Vegeta realizes it's not for him, he attempts to break through his limits his own way. The concept of pushing himself to his limits was always the case the moment he challenged Jiren. He wasn't satisfied with the level he was at hence why Vegeta taunts Jiren by stating that he was fighting harder against Kakarot. Vegeta's pride is what compels Vegeta to keep pushing forward. Everyone takes notice of that. Belmod is concerned. Blue Evolved is a culmination in Vegeta's desire to be the strongest by pursuing another path once he realizes Ultra Instinct is not it.
I think the message is clear that Vegeta was growing stronger through his pride this entire time. It's even implied in the Episode title.
