What was Goku referring to when he said that even with a 5fold Kaioken he couldn't beat Ape Vegeta?

[Hector]

Yaay, I love candies.

 

[Papasmurf]

The statement would be superfluous if it referred to his current condition where Yajirobe's tap caused him great pain. The difference between a KKx4 and a KKx5 is only 1.25x. Goku was referring to a hypothetical fully powered KKx5 imo.

 

[ScottyFamalam]

5x fresh Gokuu (8k) would only put him at 45k. Fresh Oh-zaru Vegeeta is 180k. Vegeeta lost a lot of power from the 4x Kamehameha and more from making his Power Ball.

If Vegeeta lost 50% of his power, then Oh-zaru would put him at 90k, which is double 45k. If he lost 75%, then Oh-zaru would put him at 45k, equal to 5x fresh Gokuu.

Gokuu at least lost 50% of his power from using 3x and 4x Kaioh-ken back to back; he's normally 8k, so half of that would be 4k. 5x would put him at 20k.

Considering Vegeeta was having trouble against Gohan after turning back to normal, I think it's safe to say Vegeeta had lost 75% of his power. He's 18k normally; 25% of that is 4.5k. Gohan was no higher than 2.8k.

Even though 5x fresh Gokuu would be equally strong as 25% of Oh-zaru Vegeeta, it's fair to say he'd lose to Oh-zaru's natural resilience and endurance. I don't see a 5x Kamehameha would beat Oh-zaru Vegeeta's mouth blast. Plus, Gokuu implies that a 6x Kaioh-ken would work. 24k isn't shit to 45k, so Gokuu can't be referring to his weakened self. He's obviously talking about himself fresh.

 

[Warmmedown]

Gokuu at least lost 50% of his power from using 3x and 4x Kaioh-ken back to back;

based on what? Does he say it?

 

[Warmmedown]

It is probably his weakened state, because it's a statement about winning the fight as the fight is in that moment, not a hypothetical rematch. In that moment he's weakened.

 

[ScottyFamalam]

based on what? Does he say it?

Based on the fact Vegeeta struggles with Gohan.

 

[Warmmedown]

Vegeta took a kamehameha and got blasted in the eyeball. Totally unrelated to Goku's kaioken fatigue. Goku just use kaioken and there's nothing saying he lost "at least 50% of his power". Why 50%? Why not 25%?

 

[ScottyFamalam]

Vegeta took a kamehameha and got blasted in the eyeball.

Use your head lol

Base Vegeeta struggles with Gohan, who is only 2.8k at best. That means weakened Vegeeta isn't tremendously stronger than Gohan. Fair to say he was only 4.5k, which is just 25% of 18k.

Oh-zaru is a 10x boost, so since Vegeeta was weakened when he transformed, Oh-zaru Vegeeta was 45k.

5x fresh Gokuu would be 45k, too, but he isn't as durable as Oh-zaru and Gokuu'll destroy his body going 5x, anyway. Furthermore, Gokuu implies 6x would work. 6x weakened Gokuu is only 24k; 6x fresh is 48k, higher than weakened Oh-zaru Vegeeta's logical figure of 45k. He's obviously talking about himself fresh when he says 5x wouldn't work.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Does anyone actually think 40k > Oozaru Vegeta here? So the statement can be used for both ideas.

 

[Papasmurf]

Does anyone actually think 40k > Oozaru Vegeta here? So the statement can be used for both ideas.

I honestly can't see Vegeta dropping down to less than 25% of his power by the time he became Oozaru. He should be well over 40,000 in Oozaru form. You can say that having his tail chopped off and detransforming proved to be strenuous considering that Goku and Gohan always seem to pass out and suffer from fatigue when they are forcibly reverted back from Oozaru.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I honestly can't see Vegeta dropping down to less than 25% of his power by the time he became Oozaru. He should be well over 40,000 in Oozaru form. You can say that having his tail chopped off and detransforming proved to be strenuous considering that Goku and Gohan always seem to pass out and suffer from fatigue when they are forcibly reverted back from Oozaru.

Yeah, we have to find the right combo of Power Ball loss and forced detransformation.

Post-transformation Vegeta is pitifully weak. The fact that Gohan can go toe to toe with Vegeta is absurd. Vegeta has to be 25% of his power or less by this point. So we gotta start somewhere.

 

[Papasmurf]

Vegeta said only a few select Saiyans are capable of the Power Ball, and it clearly decreases Ki.

To use Nappa as an example, suppose that Nappa's supposed inability to use the Power Ball effectively means that the Oozaru transformation simply isn't worth it should he lose the power ball's ki equivalent.

1/10 of Nappa's power would be around 780. To make his prospective Oozaru form weaker than his normal full power, let's say using the Power Ball drops him down to about 700. This means he loses 7,100 in Ki. Let's say Vegeta's Ki drain would be similar, dropping him down to < 11,000 should he perform it while in peak condition. Since Vegeta was less than optimum state after losing the beam struggle, let's put him at around 12,000 when he performed the Power Ball, making him sub-5000 after he performs it.

Then, he loses an unspecified amount of Ki/stamina upon losing his tail and the Oozaru transformation. Should he drop to about 3500, then a slightly stronger Gohan than the 2800 one who used a presumably no-amp Masenko against Nappa managing to hold his own makes sense.

Now, the only problem in that equation would be that Vegeta survived the Genki Dama even after becoming so weak, but then we have Goku saying the GD was sub-50% of its original power that he believed would be effective against Oozaru Vegeta... Who's clearly way over 40,000. Vegeta surviving it is PIS no matter how you slice it. Since logic would dictate that the GD that was to be Goku's trump card SHOULD surpass his KKx4 Kamehameha at least, yet it failed to kill a weakened Vegeta that Gohan was able to trade blows with... None of that makes sense here. So I'm going to ignore the GD altogether in this equation.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Vegeta surviving it is PIS no matter how you slice it. Since logic would dictate that the GD that was to be Goku's trump card SHOULD surpass his KKx4 Kamehameha at least, yet it failed to kill a weakened Vegeta that Gohan was able to trade blows with... None of that makes sense here. So I'm going to ignore the GD altogether in this equation.

Damn. Great point.

 

[Hector]

I honestly can't see Vegeta dropping down to less than 25% of his power by the time he became Oozaru. He should be well over 40,000 in Oozaru form. You can say that having his tail chopped off and detransforming proved to be strenuous considering that Goku and Gohan always seem to pass out and suffer from fatigue when they are forcibly reverted back from Oozaru.

I see no reason to think that Vegeta lost any power from detransforming.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I see no reason to think that Vegeta lost any power from detransforming.

He had to.

Gohan ain't hitting 4,500 or whatever.

 

[Papasmurf]

https://hot.planeptune.us/manga/Dragon-Ball/DragonBallZ/0041-014.png

https://hot.planeptune.us/manga/Dragon-Ball/DragonBallZ/0042-001.png

The guy is panting for two pages and every other character to go Oozaru and then drop out lost consciousness after. Losing his tail and shrinking clearly produces a strain.

 

[Power Level Guy]

The guy is panting for two pages and every other character to go Oozaru and then drop out lost consciousness after. Losing his tail and shrinking clearly produces a strain.

Damn, this point is becoming stronger and stronger. Good stuff.

 

[Hector]

He had to.

Gohan ain't hitting 4,500 or whatever.

Why not either give Gohan a larger rage boost against Vegeta or give Vegeta a larger power loss pre transforming?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Why not either give Gohan a larger rage boost against Vegeta or give Vegeta a larger power loss pre transforming?

Why is it larger? Was it larger than it was on Namek?

 

[Hector]

Why is it larger? Was it larger than it was on Namek?

It doesn't have to be larger if we take the filler scene (Gohan vs 4th Form Freeza) into consideration.