Where do you place Kaioshin's PL? (post retcon)

[withheldforprivacy]

This is his retconed power (Babidi's spaceship). Regardless of whether you believe he's above Piccolo or not, go with this rule.

 

[GSM123]

Same as his Budokai power, because there’s no such thing as a retcon. Otherwise we might as well argue Android Saga Piccolo’s power was retconed.

 

[ahill1]

He was suffering from a massive loss in Shouki (?), so he was around 1,200.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Definitely below Yakon, given there's more supporting this with official material than not from both his interactions revolving around Yakon and the Daizenshuu statement complimenting it. As for the Piccolo question, I'm on the side of Piccolo > Shin as the statement can only work if assuming Piccolo sensed Shin's Ki (something nobody else could) and for what Super's worth, it debunks this line of thinking with Piccolo being unable to sense Beerus.

As for Shin VS Pui Pui, that's a more difficult matter. Unlike with Yakon, Shin didn't know Pui Pui personally and him just being cautious can be argued for far better he. Still, Shin was in visible awe at Vegeta killing Pui Pui so easily and said he never imagined the Saiyans were this powerful, compared to him already admitting to Goku when they first met he didn't expect to be able to beat him. Of course, you could argue that statement was retconned as much as Shin's analysis of SS2 Gohan until the next chapter, though there's no tangible reason to assume it was tarred to the same brush. If wanting to make them all work, you could even argue that what Ki sensing Shin has is poor and he gets a better grasp of an opponent through their movements, something definitely supported through Kibito's contradictive opinion of Gohan. That said, I'd say Pui Pui would still be at least on par with Shin, if not superior.

All that said, Shin's power is probably more or less around #18's level, given scaling from the Base Saiyans.

 

[ahill1]

Definitely below Yakon, given there's more supporting this with official material than not from both his interactions revolving around Yakon and the Daizenshuu statement complimenting it. As for the Piccolo question, I'm on the side of Piccolo > Shin as the statement can only work if assuming Piccolo sensed Shin's Ki (something nobody else could) and for what Super's worth, it debunks this line of thinking with Piccolo being unable to sense Beerus.

As for Shin VS Pui Pui, that's a more difficult matter. Unlike with Yakon, Shin didn't know Pui Pui personally and him just being cautious can be argued for far better he. Still, Shin was in visible awe at Vegeta killing Pui Pui so easily and said he never imagined the Saiyans were this powerful, compared to him already admitting to Goku when they first met he didn't expect to be able to beat him. Of course, you could argue that statement was retconned as much as Shin's analysis of SS2 Gohan until the next chapter, though there's no tangible reason to assume it was tarred to the same brush. If wanting to make them all work, you could even argue that what Ki sensing Shin has is poor and he gets a better grasp of an opponent through their movements, something definitely supported through Kibito's contradictive opinion of Gohan. That said, I'd say Pui Pui would still be at least on par with Shin, if not superior.

All that said, Shin's power is probably more or less around #18's level, given scaling from the Base Saiyans.

But if he was worried at Yakon after the Saiyajins making clear Dabura wasn't this much terrible, doesn't that imply Shin is all over the place?

Besides, some ppl argue that if we took Kaioshin's reactions at face value, we'd have to argue Yakon > SSJ2 Gohan since he sensed Gohan in the Budokai and was still worried about their chances.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

But if he was worried at Yakon after the Saiyajins making clear Dabura wasn't this much terrible, doesn't that imply Shin is all over the place?

Shin still had yet to see the Saiyans live up to their word concerning Dabura, so I'd say his precaution and decisiveness was warranted.

Besides, some ppl argue that if we took Kaioshin's reactions at face value, we'd have to argue Yakon > SSJ2 Gohan since he sensed Gohan in the Budokai and was still worried about their chances.

As I covered in that first post, Shin and Kibito seem pretty terrible at sensing Ki, whereas all their statements concerning viewing someone's movements seem to line up as consistent.

 

[ahill1]

But if he was worried at Yakon after the Saiyajins making clear Dabura wasn't this much terrible, doesn't that imply Shin is all over the place?

Shin still had yet to see the Saiyans live up to their word concerning Dabura, so I'd say his precaution and decisiveness was warranted.

Besides, some ppl argue that if we took Kaioshin's reactions at face value, we'd have to argue Yakon > SSJ2 Gohan since he sensed Gohan in the Budokai and was still worried about their chances.

As I covered in that first post, Shin and Kibito seem pretty terrible at sensing Ki, whereas all their statements concerning viewing someone's movements seem to line up as consistent.

What about him surviving Majin Boo's assault (that while holding back, was still enough so easily KO Gohan) and destroying a blast intended to kill Gohan?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

What about him surviving Majin Boo's assault (that while holding back, was still enough so easily KO Gohan) and destroying a blast intended to kill Gohan?

The former can be easily seen as plot armouring (or alternatively, he has far greater durability than power after having survived attacks from SK Boo in the past), whilst the latter doesn't hold much weight when it was a blast out of Boo's control at that point and we've seen characters far weaker than an attack neutralise it once it went astray in the past (eg. Piccolo destroying Gohan's Masenko against 3rd form Freeza).

 

[GSM123]

Can Kaioshin even read movements? While having his mind focused entirely on something else?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

There's no reason to assume he didn't for the battles on Babidi's spaceship. Whilst an unskilled fighter, gauging opponents from their movements is something even basic teenage martial artists on Earth were able to do in Part 1. I highly doubt someone over 5 million years and some significant battle experience would be that incompetent.

 

[Tapion]

Yakon > Kaioshin is almost definitely a fact, but Pui Pui > Kaioshin is not necessarily so. Not only does the Daizenshuu not say anything about Kaioshin fearing Pui Pui in his entry, Kaioshin didn't personally know Pui Pui like he did Yakon, he was merely going by the M on his forehead (and couldn't sense his ki)

 

[Tapion]

Vegeta's assessment of Dabura is pretty much trash. Dabura's ki could (presumably) not be sensed due to him being a Majin, so how the hell would Vegeta gauge his power? Even his movements wouldn't amount to anything, unless one-shotting Kibito and petrifying Piccolo and Krillin is somehow enough for him to put out an accurate assessment.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yakon > Kaioshin is almost definitely a fact, but Pui Pui > Kaioshin is not necessarily so. Not only does the Daizenshuu not say anything about Kaioshin fearing Pui Pui in his entry, Kaioshin didn't personally know Pui Pui like he did Yakon, he was merely going by the M on his forehead (and couldn't sense his ki)

He he should still be able to read an fighter's movements and as made evident from his reaction and words, Vegeta oneshotting Pui Pui placed him as stronger than he imagined of those 3 being, despite already expecting Goku to be stronger than himself. Though not necessarily showing Shin as inferior to Pui Pui, it definitely shows the two aren't leagues apart.

Even his movements wouldn't amount to anything, unless one-shotting Kibito and petrifying Piccolo and Krillin is somehow enough for him to put out an accurate assessment.

Movements of such a level can still be enough to gauge a fighter's calibre going by past examples. For instance Yamcha was able to tell Jackie Chun had become stronger since the 21st TB when seeing him oneshot fodders in the 22nd TB preliminaries.

 

[GSM123]

Tenshinhan and Piccolo weren't reading 19's movements. They were clearly more concerned about Goku's Super Saiyan Ki, which is something they could sense. Apparently it requires being focused on the fighters to read their movements, and Kaioshin's high concerns with Vegeta could hold him back from such.

It's also worth noting Kaioshin and Kibito are aware of Babidi's ability to unlock hidden power, so prior knowledge of Yakon is pointless when they don't know how strong he currently is.

 

[Tapion]

Movements of such a level can still be enough to gauge a fighter's calibre going by past examples.

One-shotting Kibito doesn't allow you to gauge a SSJ2 tier fighter.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Tenshinhan and Piccolo weren't reading 19's movements. They were clearly more concerned about Goku's Super Saiyan Ki, which is something they could sense. Apparently it requires being focused on the fighters to read their movements, and Kaioshin's high concerns with Vegeta could hold him back from such.

He was still clearly focused enough to be able to tell how Vegeta's power surpassed his estimations of the Saiyans though.

It's also worth noting Kaioshin and Kibito are aware of Babidi's ability to unlock hidden power, so prior knowledge of Yakon is pointless when they don't know how strong he currently is.

Shin never brings that up as a factor, whilst knowing who Yakon is, having also made it apparent that Base Vegeta > His estimations of SSJ Goku > Himself, and still wanted to group to gang up on him. At bare minimum, that would present even pre-Majin Yakon as not being far behind Shin, if at all.

One-shotting Kibito doesn't allow you to gauge a SSJ2 tier fighter.

Oneshotting random fodder shouldn't allow one to gauge a 22nd TB tier fighter either by that standard, yet the manga says differently.

 

[Tapion]

Oneshotting random fodder shouldn't allow one to gauge a 22nd TB tier fighter either by that standard, yet the manga says differently.

Yamcha didn't say that, actually.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yamcha didn't say that, actually.

Someone who's feats and scaling present him as being at least above post-Karin Goku and who had just seen what Goku was currently capable of against Chappa wouldn't consider Jackie Chun to make up part of an "astonishing tournament" if he wasn't able to tell he was leagues above his 21st TB self from his movements.

 

[Tapion]

Yamcha didn't say that, actually.

Someone who's feats and scaling present him as being at least above post-Karin Goku and who had just seen what Goku was currently capable of against Chappa wouldn't consider Jackie Chun to make up part of an "astonishing tournament" if he wasn't able to tell he was leagues above his 21st TB self from his movements.

Yamcha was talking about skill, not power. That's my point.

Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”

On the other hand, if you took Vegeta's statement literally you'd be arguing that Kibito could have managed something Dabura.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yamcha was talking about skill, not power. That's my point.

He had to be referring to power as well for it to be in line with his following statement as skill alone wouldn't cut it, unless we assume Super logic was in affect as early as the 22nd TB.

On the other hand, if you took Vegeta's statement literally you'd be arguing that Kibito could have managed something Dabura.

It isn't out of the realm of possibility for Vegeta to believe that from his perspective, given how Kibito and Shin were completely unknown in terms of power and it's later made apparent that the Saiyans severely overestimated them. As far as Vegeta is concerned, Kibito's upper limits are an unknown variable. What he can make a judgement on, however, is Dabura's movements from his general speed and the strength of his blast. Even if it can't be sensed, it'd be unreasonable to believe Vegeta wouldn't be able to tell how strong an attack is when viewing it upfront.