Why do battle shounen mangaka blow their load so early?

Kyo

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As far as presenting threats to the main characters in a long-running series I believe that battle mangaka often blow their load too early in giving the main characters a big challenge and it almost always leads to problems later down the line without fail. It is sort of understandable as it's just the short-sighted thing to do in a long-running series where you want to up the stakes and draw badass shit or whatever, but you'd think someone would at least pay a little mind to how the implications would pan out over time.

A really easy example is Luffy's fight with Crocodile in One Piece. The very first main villain that Luffy confronts upon entering the Grand Line is one of the Shichibukai? The Shichibukai who are later revealed to be part of the "Three Great Powers" and somehow an equivalent to the fucking Yonko? Luffy beats him by bringing along a little barrel of water and then later by punching him with his bloodied fists? Has Croc never fought someone with blood on them before? There's no way Croc goes down that easy. And Oda clearly thought so too since he brings back Croc in the war arc and has some dialogue to try and retroactively explain how Crocodile will *really* get into his groove now or something -- I forget the exact lines, but it's clear what it means when you read it and, if you really want to stretch things, compare it to some of the things he says to Luffy in Alabasta. Even if Croc had just gotten complacent or whatever he should still have a vast experience gap over Luffy, one that shouldn't be bridged simply because Luffy figures out his weakness. Despite the versatility of Luffy's devil fruit, the fact that he was still able to fight against such a supposedly strong fighter as he did just feels wrong. Also 80mil is a bitch bounty, why was he recruited at such a low bounty and why would he have grown so strong after that point (like we're meant to believe later) given what we know of his character? All Oda seemed to have really thought up until that point is that Croc'll be the first experienced pirate to give Luffy a challenge in the Grand Line and Luffy's gonna come out with a bigger bounty when he's done because he beat Croc obviously. Moreover, there's also the fact that he seemingly doesn't have a clue about Haki during the Alabasta arc, since Oda just hadn't planned that far ahead yet. Oda not planning Haki yet would be just fine if he hadn't had Luffy fight someone like Croc yet. Croc is clearly not some irrelevant guy at Marineford by any means. Anyway, it's just too much. Enel has kind of the same issue, but at least rubber vs electricity is a lot more believable and you can more easily see how Enel would fuck people's shit up despite what Luffy did to him imo while Croc getting a little soaked was just silly. (Though basically doing the same thing with Logias twice in a row was boring, but I digress.) Enel also gets some benefit of the doubt since he unknowingly uses Haki, and doesn't necessarily have any reason to know about it in the first place. (Again, I digress.)

Another example that I think doesn't get talked about much is early Naruto (though it's probably not quite as egregious as the above). The Zabuza stuff is kind of forgivable, since Naruto and Sasuke use strategy and bs kyuubi power-ups to do their thing and the real fighter of that arc was Kakashi. But the damage is kind of done here since Kishi has already tossed these guys an A-rank mission, and in the next arc he's got to throw them into another similarly dangerous threat by having Naruto take on the Shukaku aka the One-Tailed Beast, who may be the weakest but is still a Tailed Beast (even if this wasn't revealed yet), whose Jinchuuriki would completely style on pre-finals Sasuke and Naruto no problem without transforming at all. I know there was some strategy involved but it makes Naruto incredibly strong and makes a Tailed Beast seem kinda meh. I know he woke Gaara up to make the Shukaku go away, but with what we see later in the series I don't see why Shukaku doesn't just fucking murk everyone there instantly. In order to win Naruto had to summon Gamabunta which is an incredible feat for a genin to pull off. Part 2 is guilty of this to a lesser degree by having Naruto and Sakura immediately fight members of the Akatsuki, particularly Sasori who had this ridiculous hype of having defeated Suna's strongest Kazekage (fucking lol). We already know how power creeped Naruto got, but the seeds were really planted pretty early because of the tendency mentioned in the title.

Even a more competent series like Hunter x Hunter falls victim to the same issue, which is disappointing because HxH somewhat avoided the long lasting effects of this mistake and could have avoided it completely if Togashi played his cards right. Kurapika should have never performed as well as he did against Uvogin in the Yorknew arc before Uvo used his full power. Had Uvogin styled on Kurapika prior to the latter's use of Chain Jail, then there wouldn't really be much of a problem. But in a strange twist of typical shounen fanfare, Kurapika clowns Uvo in CQC and speed (though is unable to damage him really) and goads him into using more of his power, giving us the "that was only X% of my power" trope until Kurapika reveals that he's worthy enough for Uvo to use everything he's got. In terms of true combat prowess Uvo fails to keep up with Kurapika at all, Pika who was not even faster than Gon/Killua in the previous arc, which really calls into questions Uvogin's capabilities as a good fighter. His 20% Big Bang Impact punch did not do much to Pika because "Pika has to be an Enhancer," except not really because that's not how Emperor Time works nor is that how mastery over Nen works. His full powered punch shatters Pika's arm and may have done more, but it's still ultimately an underwhelming result coming from someone who's supposed to be a "Master Enhancer," and the injury is healed in like 5 seconds. He never hits Pika with a 50% punch but we can assume it would not be as devastating as it really should be. This is not even going into how Uvo never once uses Gyo during the fight despite the chains disappearing midfight, or how his Hatsu is really just a glorified Ko punch. And yet Nobunaga insists that Uvogin would never lose in a fight and yadayada, luckily every other Troupe member has been shown to be much faster and not a total dumbass so Togashi mostly avoided long-lasting adverse effects from this mishap and mostly just has the fight stick out like a sore thumb and has some of the characters sounding stupid here and there when talking about it.

Even in a series that don't have much potential to commit this sin, they still kinda do because mangaka just can't seem to help themselves or plan ahead far enough. See Son Goku beating Roshi at the 21st, only for Roshi to play take-backsies later -- "I trained and am now stronger for the 22nd, and my prime self was even better, so yeah Goku surpassing me back then totally meant nothing." Also that out of place statement from Karin wondering about an even stronger Goku potentially surpassing Roshi. At least there's some noticeable attempt at backpedaling here.

I don't think there are too many series that avoid committing this sin. Fullmetal Alchemist is probably one that I can recall, likely because its priorities are pretty different and it doesn't have power-ups for the most part anyway so power tiers aren't that big of a deal and stakes are built in other ways. FMA is not that long of a series easier, which makes it easier to avoid making a mistake that seems to be mostly related to short-sightedness in the face of writing a very long series.
 

Fantastische Hure

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I only read the first few lines right-now but two things:

1. The Shichibukai being a third of the 3 great powers was revealed by Yusaku as-far back as right before going to Arlong when mentioning Jinbe.

2. Luffy did actually say that's why he stole the water from Alabasta so no-one could figure-out his weakness and fight him.
 

Captain Cadaver

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It mainly has to do with two main factors in combination to each other - the weekly release schedule and the publishers wanting to milk a franchise. When both of these are combined, it leaves creators with limited time to bring out ideas to extend what was meant to be a short story into a long spanning tale. The Cell Arc of Dragon Ball is the perfect example of this, as editorial influence and time restraints lead to Toriyama having to constantly change the goalpost by bringing in more villains and making huge retcons or plot holes to what was previous established by doing so. Bleach too in a way, given how beyond being a spiritual successor to YYH and Kubo just wanting to draw "cool stuff" there was no plan from the beginning (though the first arc was still far better than everything to come after it).

Taking Hokuto no Ken as another example, whilst managing to have very consistent quality throughout its first half, slight details (or lack thereof) in the early chapters definitely point towards Buronson originally planning for it to be a short series with Shin as the final boss. Even though it was a good idea to continue it and the final battle with Raoh would've provided it a perfect ending, that alone shows that Raoh was definitely supposed to be the endgame before Jump forced the creators to milk it with a timeskip that retconned a lot of material.

Another point I'd add to Oda not fully planning out Haki is how it's been used throughout the timeskip. Whenever characters used Busoshoku Haki now, their limbs (or whole body) turn black just as Luffy's does (which takes away the idea that Luffy's variation was based on vulcanised rubber, but I digress). If that's the case, why wasn't the supposed "War of the Best" that was Marineford not filled with the top tiers blacking up more than a 1920s minstrel troupe?
As far as Hunter X Hunter jumping the shark, I'd cite Alluka as a bigger case of it. With the contrived loophole of her wish granting abilities, what's to stop Killua from developing his own contract and using her abilities to abuse it?

The main reason FMA avoided going off the rails was not just its far more focused plot, but also that it was released monthly and, thus, allowed Arakawa far more time to plan out her ideas for the story and characters. I'd cite Kenshin as another battle Shonen that avoided losing steam as whilst there were a few contrivances in the Jinchu Arc, it was nowhere near plot breaking (especially compared to 99% of other final arcs in Shonen) and the series remained focused on its main themes and Kenshin's character arc throughout.

Fantastische Hure said:
1. The Shichibukai being a third of the 3 great powers was revealed by Yusaku as-far back as right before going to Arlong when mentioning Jinbe.
That wasn't really the point he was making in the OP though. He was addressing how an 81mil bountry for Crocodile (not to mention Hancock's 80mil bounty) is pathetically low for someone so experienced when the post-timeskip material have presented even pissants of the New World as having 100mil+ bounties. Hell, Nami's bountry is now 100mil+ despite her having not done much of worth on a global level since Enies Lobby, yet a veteran with knowledge of the New World who was allowed the prestige of Shichibukai status was below that level?

2. Luffy did actually say that's why he stole the water from Alabasta so no-one could figure-out his weakness and fight him.
Again, that's not quite what Kyo was driving at. Crocodile has had a lot of experience and is known to have been humiliated in battle by Whitebeard in the past, so him not developing Haki to negate his weakness with what we're later revealed on how experienced he is is a contrivance caused by the plot being extended far longer than Oda planned.

It's worth noting Oda initially only planned for OP to go on for about 5 years, so it's safe to say a lot of the details after Alabasta were ones he thought up long after the series started being published.
 

Kyo

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Fantastische Hure said:
I only read the first few lines right-now but two things:

1. The Shichibukai being a third of the 3 great powers was revealed by Yusaku as-far back as right before going to Arlong when mentioning Jinbe.

2. Luffy did actually say that's why he stole the water from Alabasta so no-one could figure-out his weakness and fight him.
1. Right my bad. My point is just that Oda did not consider how powerful these 3 great powers should be early on, then.

2. What CC said.

You should read the other lines :D

Captain Cadaver said:
It mainly has to do with two main factors in combination to each other - the weekly release schedule and the publishers wanting to milk a franchise. When both of these are combined, it leaves creators with limited time to bring out ideas to extend what was meant to be a short story into a long spanning tale.
But Oda is supposed to have planned everything :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Captain Cadaver said:
Another point I'd add to Oda not fully planning out Haki is how it's been used throughout the timeskip. Whenever characters used Busoshoku Haki now, their limbs (or whole body) turn black just as Luffy's does (which takes away the idea that Luffy's variation was based on vulcanised rubber, but I digress). If that's the case, why wasn't the supposed "War of the Best" that was Marineford not filled with the top tiers blacking up more than a 1920s minstrel troupe?
Heh. Well I do think they're using Busoshoku Haki in Marineford, but Oda just did not develop a way to visually show it. For example Shanks must have used it to block Akainu's attack. Still, even if we couldn't visually see it, uses of Haki should have been way more blatant to the reader and easier to pick up on in rereads (which I don't particularly feel it is) especially with how common Haki is among basically everyone later. Which again makes the Croc fight weird.
Captain Cadaver said:
As far as Hunter X Hunter jumping the shark, I'd cite Alluka as a bigger case of it. With the contrived loophole of her wish granting abilities, what's to stop Killua from developing his own contract and using her abilities to abuse it?
Well I didn't meant to point out the Uvo fight as jumping the shark necessarily, since luckily it manages to not have too many lasting effects on the series and mainly just makes Uvo look stupid and overrated by even his own teammates. I think Togashi kinda just lucked out in this regard and I suspect he just wanted Pika to look really cool during the fight to surprise people, since most uninitiated readers likely would have expected Pika to perform far worse without his trump card which allows him to bridge the gap of experience and nen mastery.

Captain Cadaver said:
The main reason FMA avoided going off the rails was not just its far more focused plot, but also that it was released monthly and, thus, allowed Arakawa far more time to plan out her ideas for the story and characters. I'd cite Kenshin as another battle Shonen that avoided losing steam as whilst there were a few contrivances in the Jinchu Arc, it was nowhere near plot breaking (especially compared to 99% of other final arcs in Shonen) and the series remained focused on its main themes and Kenshin's character arc throughout.
True about FMA.

In the case of Kenshin I think the mangaka in general did not focus as much on building up big power threats early on that would end up out of place later in the series. Having only two major arcs also helps in this regard, with Kenshin just fighting guys from his past and not really having big dumb power-ups.
 

Captain Cadaver

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Kyo said:
But Oda is supposed to have planned everything :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
He planned everything about as much as Aizen did. :troll3

Heh. Well I do think they're using Busoshoku Haki in Marineford, but Oda just did not develop a way to visually show it. For example Shanks must have used it to block Akainu's attack. Still, even if we couldn't visually see it, uses of Haki should have been way more blatant to the reader and easier to pick up on in rereads (which I don't particularly feel it is) especially with how common Haki is among basically everyone later. Which again makes the Croc fight weird.
As you said, earlier fights showed no visualisation and so much as being able to tag a logia opponent would be enough of a visual cue, so everyone suddenly presenting the same visual as Luffy out of nowhere is still a pretty big flaw in how Haki is shown in modern OP.
 

Let's Go Fearless!

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Sometimes it has something to do with the popularity of characters ex: Raoh, therefore the franchise is force to milk the show
 

sei'taer

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Most writers have an idea and a narrative arc to tell.

And then the series gets really popular and they've already used their best ideas.
 

Pocket-Gog~

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Kurapika's gets even worse when you realise that in the latest arc he's significantly weaker for no reason.
 

Kyo

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you mean the newly revealed restriction on emperor time? been too long for me to remember what else he's done apart from his other new ability
 

Pocket-Gog~

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Kyo said:
you mean the newly revealed restriction on emperor time? been too long for me to remember what else he's done apart from his other new ability

He's now on par with regular tier Hunters in terms of power.
 

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To add more to the topic, I'd say the introduction of Stands in JoJo helped mitigate this to some degree. They helped make it so that the powerscaling was less linear and the series wouldn't become as susceptible to power creep as other series that had already presented such a huge gap as an Ultimate life form. Of course, JoJo is still somewhat victim to its own problems that Stands provide, such as some level of retconning being necessary when it came to overpowered Stands like Star Platinum: The World being challenged and Requiem Stands bringing power creep into the system with how GER's existence creates a pretty noticeable plot hole in Part 6's conflict even getting the the point Pucci could come close to Heaven.

If treating Hokuto no Ken's pre-timeskip material as a complete series (because fuck its retcon-filled timeskip and it ruining Part 1's ending), that has a pretty clear-cut and consistent tiering despite Raoh and the extent of his power being introduced about halfway through it due to any alternative threats being rivals to him and just as much focus being placed on Raoh's campaign as on Kenshiro's own challenges.
 

Fantastische Hure

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i saw this from some-time ago & i thought it also kind-of weirdly went with this thread.

Interviewer: So, you had not thought of the Berserker Armor from the beginning of the series? You created this element during the development of your world?

Kentaro Miura: I would not go so far as to say that everything was in place for this element to be obvious. In fact, the world of manga is marked by inflation, with the arrival of ever more incredible enemies accompanied by ever more powerful weapons. This is a common situation in shônen mangas, who do not have time to control this inflation. It quickly becomes galloping up to exceed a heading from which, except stroke of luck, it is no longer possible to stop it. But in my case, and not wanting to disrespect my first publisher, my story was published in a second-rate magazine, which allowed me to keep inflation under control. Especially since at the beginning, the publication was monthly. So I always made sure to let inflation grow, but by small successive leaps... I feel like talking about economy. Where the best inflation is 2%, 3%, 4%, a mild inflation.
 

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I'd rather a manga be bi-weekly or even monthly if it ensured that every chapter was going to be quality and worth the wait. Sadly Super is monthly, and we know that sure as hell isn't worth the wait :king
 

Pocket-Gog~

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Captain Cadaver said:
Requiem Stands bringing power creep into the system with how GER's existence creates a pretty noticeable plot hole in Part 6's conflict even getting the the point Pucci could come close to Heaven.

Part 5 is also coincidentally the only part you could actually skip and not miss a single thing. :donovan
 
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