Withheldforprivacy's ''classic'' (original manga only) list

[withheldforprivacy]

This isn't my final list, i'll try many ideas/approaches. This is my ''classic theories'' list.

MULTIPLIERS
SSJ: 40x
ASSJ: 1.5x
USSJ: 2.5x
Cell's buffed form: 1.5x
Cell's power weighted form: 1.66x
SSJ2: 2x
SSJ3: 1.66x
SSJ (fusions): 1.66x
SSJ2 (fusions): 1.5x
SSJ3 (fusions): 1.33x
Fusion dance: 165x weakest PL
Improved fusion dance: 240x weakest PL
Potara: 1000x weakest PL
Potara with rivalry: 1200x weakest PL


POST KING KAI
Piccolo (weighted): 264.000
Piccolo (unweighted): 330.000
Yamcha: 50.000
Tenshinhan: 80.000
Chaozu: 10.000

FREEZA SAGA
Freeza 1st form: 530.000
Vegeta: 480.000
Krillin: 300.000
Gohan: 1.000.000
Freeza 2nd form (initial): 1.000.000
Freeza 2nd form (powered up): 1.500.000
Piccolo (weighted): 1.600.000
Freeza 2nd form (max): 1.850.000
Piccolo (unweighted): 2.000.000
Freeza 3rd form: 3.000.000
Gohan (post zenkai): 1.400.000
Gohan (full power blast): 2.800.000
Vegeta (post zenkai): 4.000.000
Freeza 4th form (initial): 4.000.000
Freeza 4th form (speed up): 5.000.000
Goku: 7.500.000
Freeza 4th form (warm up): 8.000.000
Goku (2x kaioken): 15.000.000
Freeza 4th form (no hands): 16.000.000
Freeza 50%: 140.000.000
Goku (10x kaioken): 75.000.000
Goku (battle worn): 6.750.000
Goku (20x kaioken): 135.000.000
Goku (20x kaioken/ khh): 141.750.000
SSJ Goku (ki restored): 300.000.000
Freeza 100%: 280.000.000

HUMANS REVIVED
Krillin: 300.000
Yamcha: 60.000
Tenshinhan: 120.000
Chaozu: 13.500

MECHA FREEZA SAGA
Vegeta: 6.000.000
Piccolo: 5.500.000
Gohan: 1.400.000
Krillin: 300.000
Yamcha: 60.000
Tenshinhan: 150.000
Chaozu: 15.000
Mecha Freeza 33.3%: 105.000.000
King Cold: 105.000.000
Mecha Freeza 100%: 315.000.000
Trunks: 8.000.000
SSJ Trunks: 320.000.000
Goku: 10.000.000
SSJ Goku: 400.000.000

LONE WARRIOR
Gohan (2 arms): 6.000.000
SSJ Gohan (2 arms): 240.000.000
Gohan (1 arm): 7.500.000
SSJ Gohan (1 arm): 300.000.000
Teen Trunks: 4.000.000
SSJ Teen Trunks: 160.000.000
Seventeen 45%: 270.000.000
Seventeen 100%: 600.000.000
Eighteen: 560.000.000
Adult Trunks: 8.000.000
SSJ Adult Trunks: 320.000.000

ANDROIDS SAGA
Yamcha: 2.400.000
Krillin: 12.000.000
Tenshinhan: 6.000.000
Gohan: 14.000.000
Nineteen (initial): 210.000.000
Goku: 15.000.000
SSJ Goku: 600.000.000
SSJ Goku sick: 400.000.000 (rapidly decreases)
Nineteen (post Goku): 315.000.000
Vegeta: 15.750.000
SSJ Vegeta: 630.000.000
Dr Gero (initial): 350.000.000
Dr Gero (post energy): 400.000.000
Piccolo: 480.000.000
Trunks: 13.500.000
SSJ Trunks: 540.000.000
Eighteen: 840.000.000
Seventeen: 900.000.000
Ginger Cell: 720.000.000
Piccolo (post Kami/ weighted): 840.000.000
Piccolo (post Kami/ unweighted): 960.000.000
Piccolo (battle worn): 800.000.000
Piccolo (light grenade): 2.400.000.000
Humans Cell: 2.400.000.000
Sixteen: 2.250.000.000
Semi Cell (initial): 4.500.000.000
Vegeta (post room): 120.000.000
SSJ Vegeta (post room): 4.800.000.000
ASSJ Vegeta: 7.200.000.000
Semi Cell (max): 5.400.000.000
Trunks (post room): 115.000.000
SSJ Trunks (post room): 4.600.000.000
ASSJ Trunks: 6.900.000.000
Perfect Cell (initial): 6.750.000.000
Perfect Cell (warm up): 14.000.000.000
USSJ Trunks: 17.250.000.000
Buffed Cell: 21.000.000.000

IN SPIRIT ROOM
Goku: 35.000.000
SSJ Goku: 1.400.000.000
ASSJ Goku: 2.100.000.000
USSJ Goku: 5.250.000.000
Gohan: 35.000.000
SSJ Gohan: 1.400.000.000

CELL GAMES
Perfect Cell (warm up): 14.000.000.000
Goku: 1.050.000.000
SSJ Goku (warm up): 14.000.000.000
SSJ Goku 50%: 21.000.000.000
SSJ Goku 100%: 42.000.000.000
Perfect Cell (powered up): 48.000.000.000
Gohan: 1.312.500.000
SSJ Gohan: 52.500.000.000
Cell Jrs: 36.000.000.000
Vegeta: 825.000.000
SSJ Vegeta: 33.000.000.000
Trunks: 800.000.000
SSJ Trunks: 32.000.000.000
Piccolo: 18.000.000.000
SSJ2 Gohan: 105.000.000.000
Perfect Cell (max): 70.000.000.000
Perfect Cell (battle worn): 54.000.000.000
Power Weighted Cell: 90.000.000.000
Super Perfect Cell: 98.000.000.000

BUU SAGA
Yamcha: 2.400.000
Krillin: 12.000.000
Tenshinhan: 9.000.000
Eighteen: 840.000.000
Piccolo: 18.000.000.000
Gohan: 875.000.000
SSJ Gohan: 35.000.000.000
SSJ2 Gohan: 70.000.000.000
Goten: 800.000.000
SSJ Goten: 32.000.000.000
Trunks: 850.000.000
SSJ Trunks: 34.000.000.000
East Kaioshin: 24.000.000.000
Kibito: 100.000.000
Pocus: 700.000.000
Yakon: 1.400.000.000
Dabura: 66.000.000.000
Vegeta: 1.250.000.000
SSJ Vegeta: 50.000.000.000
SSJ2 Vegeta: 100.000.000.000
Goku: 1.500.000.000
SSJ Goku: 60.000.000.000
SSJ2 Goku: 120.000.000.000
Majin Vegeta: 120.000.000.000
Fat Buu (initial): 105.000.000.000
Fat Buu (powered up): 140.000.000.000
Fat Buu (max): 180.000.000.000
SSJ3 Goku: 200.000.000.000
Gohan (post sword): 1.800.000.000
SSJ Gohan (post sword): 72.000.000.000
SSJ2 Gohan (post sword): 144.000.000.000
Gotenks: 132.000.000.000
SSJ Gotenks: 220.000.000.000
Fat Buu (evil expelled): 80.000.000.000
Grey Buu: 100.000.000.000
Super Buu (initial): 260.000.000.000
Goten (post room): 1.000.000.000
SSJ Goten (post room): 40.000.000.000
Trunks (post room): 1.000.000.000
SSJ Trunks (post room): 40.000.000.000
Gotenks (post room): 240.000.000.000
Super Buu (powered up): 440.000.000.000
SSJ Gotenks (post room): 400.000.000.000
Super Buu (max): 750.000.000.000
SSJ2 Gotenks: 600.000.000.000
SSJ3 Gotenks: 800.000.000.000
Ultimate Gohan: 1.000.000.000.000
Buutenks: 1.568.000.000.000
Kibitoshin: 100.000.000.000
Buuccolo: 770.000.000.000
Buuhan: 1.770.000.000.000
Vegerrot: 1.800.000.000.000
SSJ Vegerrot: 3.000.000.000.000
SSJ2 Vegerrot: 4.500.000.000.000
SSJ3 Vegerrot: 6.000.000.000.000
Buffed Buu: 1.125.000.000.000
West Kaioshin: 24.000.000.000
North Kaioshin: 24.000.000.000
Dai Kaioshin: 27.000.000.000
South Kaioshin: 30.000.000.000
Kid Buu: 190.000.000.000
Fat Buu (released from coocoon): 165.000.000.000

UBB SAGA
Yamcha: 2.400.000
Krillin: 12.000.000
Tenshinhan: 11.250.000
Eighteen: 840.000.000
Piccolo: 18.000.000.000
Ultimate Gohan: 1.000.000.000.000
Goten: 1.500.000.000
SSJ Goten: 60.000.000.000
Trunks: 1.500.000.000
SSJ Trunks: 60.000.000.000
Pan: 1.600.000.000
Goku: 2.250.000.000
SSJ Goku: 90.000.000.000
SSJ2 Goku: 180.000.000.000
SSJ3 Goku: 300.000.000.000
Vegeta: 2.250.000.000
SSJ Vegeta: 90.000.000.000
SSJ2 Vegeta: 180.000.000.000
SSJ3 Vegeta: 300.000.000.000
Ubb (initial): 0,3 (BODB Goku level, see my Early DB list for details of my Early DB PLs theory)
Ubb (enraged): 2.100.000.000
Ubb (final kiai): 190.000.000.000 (full Kid Buu's power)

 

[Six Trails]

Gohan is too close to Goku in the Android arc. Their sparring session in the ROST shows Goku easily handling Gohan.

 

[kriss-]

Where to begin..

a) I see you completely disregarded the implications within the Manga regarding how high the multiplier actually is.
b) Vegeta is too close to Frieza 1rt form. He was banking on Gohan's enraged power, him turning into a SSj and how they have continually gotten stronger on Namek, not how strong they currently were.
c) Krillen is much too powerful. Close to Piccolo? Lmao
d) Piccolo is too powerful after fusing. He should be nearly dead even with Frieza, not a league above him.
e) 3rd Form Frieza was unable to single shot Piccolo. A 50% gap is much too high.
f) Vegeta's Zenkai is too significant.
g) Frieza's 4th form is too high.
h) Goku is too powerful in his base form.
i) Official numbers for Goku & Frieza are 150 and 120 mill respectively.
j) Frieza is too close to Goku SSj. The fight was clearly a stomp in Goku's favor.
k) Frieza is too close to Trunks. Trunks asked both of them to power up to their full power and come at him. He could definitely beat them both at the same time.
l) How in blue perfect hell did the humans surpass 1 million? That's lunacy.
j) Gohan shouldn't be anywhere close to the adults during the Android Arc. He was still a non-factor.
k) Vegeta Ssj has to be weak enough for Android 20 Pre to defeat after his fight with Android 19.
l) Android 19 Post should be closer to Vegeta. He punched Vegeta and made him bleed.
m) Android 18 is too powerful in comparison to Vegetal. She had to wear him down to defeat him.
n) Wtf 3x multiplier for the light grenade?
o) Perfect Cell is too powerful in comparison to Vegeta.
p) Goku is over 1 billion in base during the Cell Games. Official sources cite him at under Organic Frieza
q) Perfect Cell (Powered Up) should be around 45 to Goku's 42.
q) Gohan Mssj should be a 50 to Cells 45.
r) SPC is too close to Kid Gohan Ssj2. Kid Gohan is still a factor in the Boo Saga but Cell isn't treated as so.
s) Goten is too close to Gohan in the Boo Saga. They couldn't single shot Android 18.
t) Same with Trunks
u) Gohan was a Super Saiyan when he fought Dabura, not a SSj2. Therefore Dabura is too powerful.
v) Fat Boo (Initial) should be stronger than Kid Gohan but significantly weaker than the SSj2s.
w) Nothing implies Z-Sword Gohan is so fricken powerful. All he did is power up his muscle strength, not Chi strength. Akira Toriyama's interviews blatantly state that the way to get stronger is to use your Chi.
x) Gotenks Base is too powerful
y) Gotenks SSj is too powerful and he's stronger than Fat Boo.
z) Nothing infers Gotenks Base post surpassed his previous super saiyan form.

I ran out of letters xD Lmfao I'll have to use numbers

1) Nothing implies the base form of the kids surpassed their previous Ssj form.
2) Ultimate Gohan is too weak. He should be 50% stronger than Gotenks Ssj3.
3) Kibitoshin is too close to the SSj2s. At only 20% weaker, he would of been considered a factor in the fight against Kid Boo.
4) Vegetto is too weak. He should be around 5x stronger than Boohan
5) Vegerrot doesn't exist
6) Goku's Base should be around his previous Ssj3 self from the Boo Saga.
7) Db Super is a direct continuation of the original Manga so you should make Goku have a SSJGB form

Way too many errors. At least more than I have ever seen.

 

[ahill]

^Vegeta being at 480,000 against 1st form Freeza looks perfectly fine. And no, Goku SSJ vs Freeza was not a stomp in Goku's favor.

Also, he is on his right of having base Saiyans above Freeza. Kid Trunks and Goten were not that weaker than #18 in base and she could one-shot Trunks from Mecha saga, who could probably stomp Mecha Freeza. Goku is way stronger than his son.

 

[kriss-]

Goku clearly had control of the entire fight against Frieza. He only fought him at full power to defeat him and tear his pride away. Frieza was only able to land 1 or 2 hits. This isn't a depiction of people being close in power.

Vegeta being at 480,000 doesn't work in the larger context of the scenes.

You are also not factoring in the fact that Android was completely nonchalant while the boys were having a hard time in their base form. They also couldn't tank or one shot Android 18. So the gap between 18 and the Super Saiyan kids is smaller than that of Piccolo versus Imperfect Cell Post.

It's also a confirmed fact that Organic Frieza is stronger than Base Saiyans.

 

[ahill]

Goku clearly had control of the entire fight against Frieza. He only fought him at full power to defeat him and tear his pride away. Frieza was only able to land 1 or 2 hits. This isn't a depiction of people being close in power.

Vegeta being at 480,000 doesn't work in the larger context of the scenes.

You are also not factoring in the fact that Android was completely nonchalant while the boys were having a hard time in their base form. They also couldn't tank or one shot Android 18. So the gap between 18 and the Super Saiyan kids is smaller than that of Piccolo versus Imperfect Cell Post.

It's also a confirmed fact that Organic Frieza is stronger than Base Saiyans.

But the fight was closer than, let's say, Vegeta vs Dodoria. Freeza clearly was able to put up a fight. Goku cannot beat Freeza with his KHH, and even loses.

Here Goku struggles in hand to hand combat against Freeza:

Spoiler

Goku says there's no point in fighting Freeza anymore now that his stamina started dropping, what can means at one point he was worth fighting.


Also, there's this:


Chapter 326 (DBZ 132), P4.1-5
Context: after Goku dodges his homing blast
Freeza: “An afterimage, huh?...You’re pretty good, aint’cha?...”
Goku: “Like I thought, I don’t have any desire to fight you as you are now…With you pinning your hopes on a worthless technique like that…If you really want to settle the score with me, recover your stamina and polish your skills.”
Freeza: “Yo-you’re calling my technique worthless?...Well then, how about two of them?!”


Goku says Freeza needs to recover his stamina and polish his skills, nothing to do with power.



The kids were in the Mighty Mask costume and his contraints and even so #18 could not one-shot them. Base kids >>> Freeza IMO.

 

[kriss-]

But the fight was closer than, let's say, Vegeta vs Dodoria. Freeza clearly was able to put up a fight. Goku cannot beat Freeza with his KHH, and even loses.

Of course the fight is closer than Vegeta vs Dodoria. Gaps don't scale linearly and thats a clear example as to why. Freeza couldn't overwhelm Goku's KHH and had to hit him with a surprise attack.

Frieza only landed but a few blows on Goku and that was it. It was quite a stomp in favor of Goku, whom later admits to only battling him as a means to defeat him and destroy his pride.

Two blows don't dictate people being close in power.

Additionally, the statement you quoted really works against what you're trying to argue because Goku feels that isn't a match for him in both departments, skills and stamina. Even if his stamina was as good as Goku's, his battle power and stamina still wouldn't of been sufficient in defeating Goku.

The kids struggled to even defend against 18 while she acts completely nonchalant in the first half of the battle. She had to suppress her energy enough as a means to not split a normal human fighter in half. Because Mighty Mask is so much stronger than an average human, she had to increase her efforts slightly, but still suppressed herself without one shotting the kids and not being disqualified from the tournament.

Organic Frieza > Base Saiyans is a confirmed fact from sources cited within the Universe of the Manga and it's author. Fan speculation holds no value in contest to this principal.

 

[ahill]

Nope, this is only if you choose to follow the contradictory Daiz's numbers. This is not a example that the gaps doesn't scale linearly at all, because these numbers are given in the Daiz, not in the manga. And the numbers are very inconsistents with the fights. Freeza is obviouly closer to SSJ Goku than Dodoria is to Zarbon.

The statement I gave doesn't work against me at all. This only proves my point lol. Goku never tells Freeza to get stronger or to get more power for their rematch. Basically just to polish up on his skills and stamina. Freeza landed many shots, something he would not be able with a 20% difference. Zarbon did not land a single hit on Vegeta [24,000]. Vegeta [24,000] did not land a single hit on Monster Zarbon (maybe one, I dunno). Vegeta did not land a single hit on Kkx3 Goku. These are pretty much all similar gaps. Goku vs Freeza should not be a different case. Freeza and SSJ Goku are rivals.

And after a few exchanges #18 quickly realized they were not humans.

 

[kriss-]

Nope, this is only if you choose to follow the contradictory Daiz's numbers. This is not a example that the gaps doesn't scale linearly at all, because these numbers are given in the Daiz, not in the manga. And the numbers are very inconsistents with the fights. Freeza is obviouly closer to SSJ Goku than Dodoria is to Zarbon.

You mean if I choose to follow the official numbers?

Goku's Initial Objective Thoughts & Objective Before Fighting 100% Freeza

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P11.1-3
Context: with 5 minutes (ha!) before Namek explodes
Freeza: “In that case, I’ll show you my 100% power! There’s no way you can defeat me! Prepare yourself!”
Goku: “Why are you using your full power now?...I know: it’s because when you use all of your power, your body itself can’t handle it.”

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”

Goku already knows that Freeza's body cannot handle bringing out his full potential for long. Additionally, he also knows that he'll be able to defeat him because Freeza already said that he was at 70% prior to powering up and that Freeza will have no regrets for losing to a Saiyan. This point will be further proven at the end of this analysis.

The Battle

Spoiler

Even after powering up to full power, 100% Frieza is unable to do any sort of damage to Goku, whom casually dismisses his physical attacks. In the Herms, it was apparently a warm-up attack, but that still doesn't take away the fact that Goku was seemingly unphased and Freeza was quite pissed that it had no effect on him; presumably, he thought it would. In short, Goku is stronger than Freeza expected.

Spoiler

In addition to defeating 100% Freeza, Goku is trying to stall for time so Gohan and the others can escape.

Spoiler

Freeza is able to land 1 strike here as the two clash.

Spoiler

Goku is quite nonchalant while Freeza is clearly pissed beyond belief. He is clearly trying his hardest to win the fight while Goku is buying time and maintaining control.

Spoiler

Here is the only scene where Freeza appears to be quite powerful.

He is able to momentarily gain the upper-hand on Goku by catching him off-guard -with a sly, but creative attack.

Spoiler

Now that everybody is off planet Namek, the real battle can finally begin. Freeza is able to land a shot here and there, but any time Goku lands one, Freeza is spitting and far more damaged than Goku is. Even during their bout, Goku is still non chalant while Freeza is barely holding his own.

Spoiler

Frieza lands 1 more hit but he is quickly countered by a boot to the head. Goku's recovery time is much, much quicker than Freeza's.

Spoiler

After being hit by Freeza, Goku instantly recovers. Whereas Freeza is knocked to the ground and has difficulty getting up. Goku is in full control of the fight.

Spoiler

Goku resumes to mercilessly beat up on Freeza, whom cannot keep up.

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P9.1
Context: Goku continues to explains why he doesn’t feel like fighting Freeza anymore
Goku: “I’m already satisfied. Your pride is in tatters…Someone has appeared who surpasses you, Freeza, who supposedly no one in this world could surpass…And this person was merely a Saiyan…”

The entire point of letting Freeza reach his maximum -as I've already proved that Goku knew he could win, was to defeat him in fair combat. It was as a means to destroy his pride and dethrone him as the #1 fighter in the Universe.

The Final Recap

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P4.5
Kaio: “Son Goku had done well…With Freeza as his opponent, he was completely winning the fight through overwhelming strength…But the cornered Freeza wiped Planet Namek itself out…”

This concludes my closing argument and proves that Freeza never stood a chance to begin with. He was unable to keep up with Goku and goku already knew he was much stronger than him. King Kai was watching the entire fight unfold and addressed it as a flat out stomp in favor of Goku.

And after a few exchanges #18 quickly realized they were not humans.

[/quote]
Android 18 had full control of the fight against them in their Base forms and was completely nonchalant during the entire bout.

 

[Six Trails]

Even after powering up to full power, 100% Frieza is unable to do any sort of damage to Goku, whom casually dismisses his physical attacks. In the Herms, it was apparently a warm-up attack, but that still doesn't take away the fact that Goku was seemingly unphased and Freeza was quite pissed that it had no effect on him; presumably, he thought it would. In short, Goku is stronger than Freeza expected.

Except it does? If that's not Freeza's full power then you can't say "Oh! Goku is much stronger because he was unfazed by Freeza's blows!" because it's not an accurate representation of Freeza's full power.

 

[kriss-]

Even after powering up to full power, 100% Frieza is unable to do any sort of damage to Goku, whom casually dismisses his physical attacks. In the Herms, it was apparently a warm-up attack, but that still doesn't take away the fact that Goku was seemingly unphased and Freeza was quite pissed that it had no effect on him; presumably, he thought it would. In short, Goku is stronger than Freeza expected.

Except it does? If that's not Freeza's full power then you can't say "Oh! Goku is much stronger because he was unfazed by Freeza's blows!" because it's not an accurate representation of Freeza's full power.

I concluded that point by saying that Goku was stronger than Freeza expected, that was essentially it. And it DIDN'T have any effect on him, BECAUSE IT WASN'T Freeza's full power.

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P4.5
Kaio: “Son Goku had done well…With Freeza as his opponent, he was completely winning the fight through overwhelming strength…But the cornered Freeza wiped Planet Namek itself out…”

He was COMPLETELY WINNING by strength alone. Therefore Goku & Freeza aren't near equals or rivals.

The Daizenshuu numbers hold true.

If that doesn't do it for you, I'm not sure what will.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Note: I edited Cell's buffed forms' multipliers.

Gohan is too close to Goku in the Android arc. Their sparring session in the ROST shows Goku easily handling Gohan.

Goku said, once he attains SSJ, Gohan will be a good sparring partner, which, to me, indicates they're close in power. Goku handling him can be
attributed to him having greater experience/skill and Gohan's reluctance.

 

[kriss-]

Sparring parter is completely different from an actual fight. Please don't twist the context of the words to suit your purposes.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Where to begin..

a) I see you completely disregarded the implications within the Manga regarding how high the multiplier actually is.
b) Vegeta is too close to Frieza 1rt form. He was banking on Gohan's enraged power, him turning into a SSj and how they have continually gotten stronger on Namek, not how strong they currently were.
c) Krillen is much too powerful. Close to Piccolo? Lmao
d) Piccolo is too powerful after fusing. He should be nearly dead even with Frieza, not a league above him.
e) 3rd Form Frieza was unable to single shot Piccolo. A 50% gap is much too high.
f) Vegeta's Zenkai is too significant.
g) Frieza's 4th form is too high.
h) Goku is too powerful in his base form.
i) Official numbers for Goku & Frieza are 150 and 120 mill respectively.
j) Frieza is too close to Goku SSj. The fight was clearly a stomp in Goku's favor.
k) Frieza is too close to Trunks. Trunks asked both of them to power up to their full power and come at him. He could definitely beat them both at the same time.
l) How in blue perfect hell did the humans surpass 1 million? That's lunacy.
j) Gohan shouldn't be anywhere close to the adults during the Android Arc. He was still a non-factor.
k) Vegeta Ssj has to be weak enough for Android 20 Pre to defeat after his fight with Android 19.
l) Android 19 Post should be closer to Vegeta. He punched Vegeta and made him bleed.
m) Android 18 is too powerful in comparison to Vegetal. She had to wear him down to defeat him.
n) Wtf 3x multiplier for the light grenade?
o) Perfect Cell is too powerful in comparison to Vegeta.
p) Goku is over 1 billion in base during the Cell Games. Official sources cite him at under Organic Frieza
q) Perfect Cell (Powered Up) should be around 45 to Goku's 42.
q) Gohan Mssj should be a 50 to Cells 45.
r) SPC is too close to Kid Gohan Ssj2. Kid Gohan is still a factor in the Boo Saga but Cell isn't treated as so.
s) Goten is too close to Gohan in the Boo Saga. They couldn't single shot Android 18.
t) Same with Trunks
u) Gohan was a Super Saiyan when he fought Dabura, not a SSj2. Therefore Dabura is too powerful.
v) Fat Boo (Initial) should be stronger than Kid Gohan but significantly weaker than the SSj2s.
w) Nothing implies Z-Sword Gohan is so fricken powerful. All he did is power up his muscle strength, not Chi strength. Akira Toriyama's interviews blatantly state that the way to get stronger is to use your Chi.
x) Gotenks Base is too powerful
y) Gotenks SSj is too powerful and he's stronger than Fat Boo.
z) Nothing infers Gotenks Base post surpassed his previous super saiyan form.

I ran out of letters xD Lmfao I'll have to use numbers

1) Nothing implies the base form of the kids surpassed their previous Ssj form.
2) Ultimate Gohan is too weak. He should be 50% stronger than Gotenks Ssj3.
3) Kibitoshin is too close to the SSj2s. At only 20% weaker, he would of been considered a factor in the fight against Kid Boo.
4) Vegetto is too weak. He should be around 5x stronger than Boohan
5) Vegerrot doesn't exist
6) Goku's Base should be around his previous Ssj3 self from the Boo Saga.
7) Db Super is a direct continuation of the original Manga so you should make Goku have a SSJGB form

Way too many errors. At least more than I have ever seen.

Lol, sorry for not reading the walls of text you exchanged with the others. Now, about your questions...
a. Which multiplier?
b. I think i placed Vegeta close enough to grapple with Freeza and far enough to be the only one to pant after that. I have posted a thread about
my theory on how Gohan's rage works. If you haven't read it, tell me to find it and give you the link or bump it.
c. I had to give him a great gap over Tenshinhan for him to remain the strongest human at EOZ.
d. Huh? Freeza (powered up) is 1.5m and Weighted Namiccolo 1.6m. This isn't a league above. Are you reading another list?
e. 3rd Form Freeza was obviously toying. He brought Piccolo to his knees using only his fingertips.
f-g. Don't you agree with the Vegeta (post zenkai)~Initial 4th Form Freeza? Doesn't Initial 4th Form Freeza have to be considerably above his 3rd
form?
h. He deflected a barrage of death beams from Initial 4th Form Freeza like nothing.
i. I'll try the ''guidebooks'' approach in another list.
j. I don't think so. I think they were even until Freeza's stamina loss started making a difference.
k. Do you believe Trunks would just sit and let Freeza power up? Do you think Goku had 2x gains at Yardrat when he clearly said all he did there
was try to master instant transmission? Did Trunks even know how powerful Freeza was? I think it's more logical to assume Trunks just provoked
him intending to slaughter him while he would be powering up. I'm not saying it can't be the way you say, but, personally, i see no reason to hax
numbers at this point of the story.
l. During the 3 year periods between 21st-22nd TB and 22nd-23rd TB, humans had 30x+ gains in my books (look at my Early DB theory list for
details). So, to make them as relevant as possible, i decided to give them similar gains here as well.
j. Look at my answer to the other guy who asked this.
k. I didn't come up with a PL for SSJ Drained Vegeta, but i guess you're right. I gave SSJ Healthy Vegeta and 19 post Goku a huge gap, since 19
absorbed a great amount of energy from Getes, yet Getes was still strong enough to cut off its hands.
l. See above. Also tanking feats are inconsistent. It's obvious Vegeta was just playing with his food.
m. Eighteen never used all her power against Vegeta. Their fight reminded me of Vegeta vs Recoome. Eighteen took a punch on stomach without
flinching (and don't say they were androids, because look at how Seventeen flinched at Cell's attacks). Also, Eighteen stated Vegeta was nothing
special, even after they had fought for quite a while and, later, when Vegeta was about to fight Semi Cell, Eighteen says ''how does he expect
to beat Cell when he was POWERLESS against me?''
n. In my Early DB list, Piccolo's last resort against Goku at 23rd TB (the one where he expelled a burst of chi that lifted boats) was 3x in my books.
This came from the fact that Piccolo had lost quite an amount of power, yet that attack was still stronger than Goku's super KHH (Goku was
impressed at the amount of chi). So, to return to Light Grenade, i decided to give it the same multiplier; it can still be considered more
advanced than the 23rd TB attack, because it needed less time to charge.
o. Why? Cell toyed with him. At this point, i experimented with various gaps, but, in the end, i went with this, because it made the kids even
with Eighteen at 25th TB.
p. I'll experiment with Freeza>Base when i make a list including BOG/FNF/DBS. This is the ''original manga only'' list.
q. MSSJ Goku an the PC he fought seemed to have a Vegeta/Base Zarbon like gap. After the free hits Cell allowed, Goku couldn't land anything
on Cell and he could only barely dodge one hit from the bio android. It was only when Cell was weakened by the KHH that the fight became more
even.
r. I think SPC and SSJ2 Gohan were rivals. Why would anyone mention Cell instead of Gohan at Buu Saga?
s-t. Goten and Gohan sparred evenly. Goten said he couldn't hit Gohan once, but that was probably because of Gohan's experience. Besides,
neither did Gohan hit Goten once.
u. About that, there is no correct answer. It's up to anyone's insticts. I decided to go with that.
v. Why not equal to Kid Gohan? Goku also said he could manage something against Kid Buu and they were equals. I gave the adult SSJ2s a
Vegeta/Zarbon like advantage over Initial Fat Buu. Isn't this enough? Vegeta was laughing at Zarbon as well.
w. I didn't want to complicate things so much to give separate PLs for arm strength.
x-y. I already told you, this is the ''classic theories'' list. I'll experiment with your theories next time.
z. Piccolo thought Base Gotenks post could do what SSJ Gotenks pre couldn't. What else do you need?
1. Huh? I i didn't make the Base Kids post stronger than SSJ Kids pre. Which list are you reading? Base Gotenks post>SSJ Gotenks pre came from
the fact that the fusion multiplier increased after the kids' training (Piccolo had impied that).
2. I gave Ultimate Gohan the typical 1.33x stomp gap over FP Super Buu. What's wrong with that?
3. Lol, even SSJ2 Vegeta was barely a factor. But, i might make him weaker. Where do you think he must stand?
4. No need. I think Suppressed Namek Saga Goku could do to Recoome/Jeice/Butta in one on one fights the same things SSJ Vegerrot did to
Buuhan.
5. Isn't that his Viz name? I prefer it because Vegetto sounds too much like Vegeta and it's confusing.
6. Going by original manga only, there is no explanation for Goku having become over 120x stronger. So, i considered Ubb only used his max
during that last kiai.
7. I already answered that.

 

[ahill]

@h0kuten

Once again, this does not prove at all that the gap between Goku and Freeza is nearly as big as the Daizenshuu implies... your analyze doesn't prove the gap between SSJ Goku and Freeza is as big as 20%, it only proves SSJ Goku is stronger than Freeza, nothing new here.

The Daizenshuu level for 100% Freeza is way off. Even more when it has Zarbon being 95% of Vegeta and Dodoria being at 91% of Vegeta.

According to then, Piccolo's only 13% weaker than Nappa and gets almost one-shotted, while with a larger gap, Freeza is able to fight evenly for multiple times and the main reason for his loss was the 100% power.

Goku had every opportunity to finish Freeza, and he even says he won't let him buy any more time.

It took all the way until near the explosion of Namek for Son Goku to defeat Freeza, and both were evenly exchanging blows for a while and being knocked by them, like you can see here

Spoiler

Or here

Spoiler

Son Goku even said he is only sparing Freeza now that he is passed the peak and kept stagnating due to the strain of using 100%, which was the main reason that he lost. Before that he announced Freeza was going to die multiple times and genuinely tried with his Kamehameha. Had the gap been massive, it would not even be worth of discussing.

This concludes my closing argument and proves that Freeza never stood a chance to begin with. He was unable to keep up with Goku and goku already knew he was much stronger than him. King Kai was watching the entire fight unfold and addressed it as a flat out stomp in favor of Goku.

Nope... this was before Freeza used his 100%. Kaio was talking about SSJ Goku vs 50% Freeza.




#18's facial expression was the same in the fight against Vegeta, and after Vegeta told her to not hold back, she said Okay, then.... This proves nothing. And, like I said, the kids were in the Mighty Mask costume and its restrictions and Trunks even said winning as a SSJ would be difficult in that costume. Clearly the costume was a pain in the ass.

After a few exchanges, #18 quickly realized they were not humans. Her punches did not hurt them at all, either.

Besides this, #18 seemed to take Mighty Mask more seriously than she did SSJ Vegeta in the Androids saga.



Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P9.2-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P12.2
Context: talking about the two disguised as Mighty Mask
No.18: “…That weird long-torso freak isn’t anyone ordinary…His small arms had surprisingly powerful punches.”


Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1
Context: after continuing to fight No.18
Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…”
No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?”
Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.”

 

[xmysticgohanx]

Spoiler

Where to begin..

a) I see you completely disregarded the implications within the Manga regarding how high the multiplier actually is.
b) Vegeta is too close to Frieza 1rt form. He was banking on Gohan's enraged power, him turning into a SSj and how they have continually gotten stronger on Namek, not how strong they currently were.
c) Krillen is much too powerful. Close to Piccolo? Lmao
d) Piccolo is too powerful after fusing. He should be nearly dead even with Frieza, not a league above him.
e) 3rd Form Frieza was unable to single shot Piccolo. A 50% gap is much too high.
f) Vegeta's Zenkai is too significant.
g) Frieza's 4th form is too high.
h) Goku is too powerful in his base form.
i) Official numbers for Goku & Frieza are 150 and 120 mill respectively.
j) Frieza is too close to Goku SSj. The fight was clearly a stomp in Goku's favor.
k) Frieza is too close to Trunks. Trunks asked both of them to power up to their full power and come at him. He could definitely beat them both at the same time.
l) How in blue perfect hell did the humans surpass 1 million? That's lunacy.
j) Gohan shouldn't be anywhere close to the adults during the Android Arc. He was still a non-factor.
k) Vegeta Ssj has to be weak enough for Android 20 Pre to defeat after his fight with Android 19.
l) Android 19 Post should be closer to Vegeta. He punched Vegeta and made him bleed.
m) Android 18 is too powerful in comparison to Vegetal. She had to wear him down to defeat him.
n) Wtf 3x multiplier for the light grenade?
o) Perfect Cell is too powerful in comparison to Vegeta.
p) Goku is over 1 billion in base during the Cell Games. Official sources cite him at under Organic Frieza
q) Perfect Cell (Powered Up) should be around 45 to Goku's 42.
q) Gohan Mssj should be a 50 to Cells 45.
r) SPC is too close to Kid Gohan Ssj2. Kid Gohan is still a factor in the Boo Saga but Cell isn't treated as so.
s) Goten is too close to Gohan in the Boo Saga. They couldn't single shot Android 18.
t) Same with Trunks
u) Gohan was a Super Saiyan when he fought Dabura, not a SSj2. Therefore Dabura is too powerful.
v) Fat Boo (Initial) should be stronger than Kid Gohan but significantly weaker than the SSj2s.
w) Nothing implies Z-Sword Gohan is so fricken powerful. All he did is power up his muscle strength, not Chi strength. Akira Toriyama's interviews blatantly state that the way to get stronger is to use your Chi.
x) Gotenks Base is too powerful
y) Gotenks SSj is too powerful and he's stronger than Fat Boo.
z) Nothing infers Gotenks Base post surpassed his previous super saiyan form.

I ran out of letters xD Lmfao I'll have to use numbers

1) Nothing implies the base form of the kids surpassed their previous Ssj form.
2) Ultimate Gohan is too weak. He should be 50% stronger than Gotenks Ssj3.
3) Kibitoshin is too close to the SSj2s. At only 20% weaker, he would of been considered a factor in the fight against Kid Boo.
4) Vegetto is too weak. He should be around 5x stronger than Boohan
5) Vegerrot doesn't exist
6) Goku's Base should be around his previous Ssj3 self from the Boo Saga.
7) Db Super is a direct continuation of the original Manga so you should make Goku have a SSJGB form

Way too many errors. At least more than I have ever seen.

make a list yo

 

[kriss-]

I didn't want to spend all day going through this so I made some quick retorts.

a. Which multiplier?

The Metamoran multiplier in the other thread.

. I think i placed Vegeta close enough to grapple with Freeza and far enough to be the only one to pant after that. I have posted a thread about

That's entirely based on fan made principals about gaps that aren't consistent or shown to be within the Manga.

Frieza was completely nonchalant while Vegeta could barely hold his own. There is a big different of power depicted here. If you had a scan of Vegat actually giving Frieza a tremendous amount of trouble, your speculative perspective might sound more convincing.

c. I had to give him a great gap over Tenshinhan for him to remain the strongest human at EOZ.

You've got Krillen (Namek) almost as powerful as Piccolo when he arrived on Namek. That's silly.

d. Huh? Freeza (powered up) is 1.5m and Weighted Namiccolo 1.6m. This isn't a league above. Are you reading another list?

Freeza 2nd form (powered up): 1.500.000

Freeza 2nd form (max): 1.850.000
Piccolo (unweighted): 2.000.000

That's wrong.

Piccolo couldn't take off his cape and resume to one shot Freeza or utterly destroy him. Piccolo unweighted should be 1.6 Million to Frieza's 1.5 million.

e. 3rd Form Freeza was obviously toying. He brought Piccolo to his knees using only his fingertips.

Incorrect.

He used an attack that they could barely detect and resumed to spam him with it. A 50% gap is much too tremendous. 20%-25% would seem more likely. This would make it similar to the gap between Semi Cell & Vegeta SSjG2.

f-g. Don't you agree with the Vegeta (post zenkai)~Initial 4th Form Freeza? Doesn't Initial 4th Form Freeza have to be considerably above his 3rd
form?

20%+ could make Frieza considerably above his third form.

h. He deflected a barrage of death beams from Initial 4th Form Freeza like nothing.

Official numbers have Goku at 3 million. This over-rides your speculative fan made ideas about gaps and how you treat them like they're factual. Everything else should follow.

i. I'll try the ''guidebooks'' approach in another list.

Oki Poki

j. I don't think so. I think they were even until Freeza's stamina loss started making a difference.

Incorrect.

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P4.5
Kaio: “Son Goku had done well…With Freeza as his opponent, he was completely winning the fight through overwhelming strength…But the cornered Freeza wiped Planet Namek itself out…”

He was COMPLETELY WINNING by strength alone. Therefore Goku & Freeza aren't near equals or rivals.

The Daizenshuu numbers hold true.

If that doesn't do it for you, I'm not sure what will.

k. I didn't come up with a PL for SSJ Drained Vegeta, but i guess you're right. I gave SSJ Healthy Vegeta and 19 post Goku a huge gap, since 19 absorbed a great amount of energy from Getes, yet Getes was still strong enough to cut off its hands.

Alright.

l. See above. Also tanking feats are inconsistent. It's obvious Vegeta was just playing with his food.

Vegeta should be weak enough that Android 20 Pre can defeat him.

m. Eighteen never used all her power against Vegeta. Their fight reminded me of Vegeta vs Recoome. Eighteen took a punch on stomach without

Vegeta was fighting on par with her and Piccolo agreed. It was only the SSj's limited stamina that made a difference in the fight.

Android 19 was getting his ass beat by Goku (Sick) but he wasn't flinching. It's stated that it's because they're Androids. That same logic applies here.

If Piccolo felt that Vegeta was simply too weak, or as weak as you're putting him, it surely would have been stated, it isn't.

Vegeta only appeared powerless once his stamina drained.

o. Why? Cell toyed with him. At this point, i experimented with various gaps, but, in the end, i went with this, because it made the kids even
with Eighteen at 25th TB.

Organic Frieza > Base Saiyans is a confirmed fact. Please don't do the biased thing and disregard it.

p. I'll experiment with Freeza>Base when i make a list including BOG/FNF/DBS. This is the ''original manga only'' list.

Dragonball Super reflects the ideas within the original Manga. Considering Toriyama re-read the original Japanese Manga before writing all the dialogue for Battle of Gods.

q. MSSJ Goku an the PC he fought seemed to have a Vegeta/Base Zarbon like gap. After the free hits Cell allowed, Goku couldn't land anything on Cell and he could only barely dodge one hit from the bio android. It was only when Cell was weakened by the KHH that the fight became more
even.

Cell only began to dominate Goku's ass once he increased his speed.

r. I think SPC and SSJ2 Gohan were rivals. Why would anyone mention Cell instead of Gohan at Buu Saga?

They aren't rivals. Gohan was shown to get his Chi cut in half, et cetera, yet he still beat Cell. Meanwhile Vegeta Pre-Majin is more concerned with surpassing Kid Gohan and makes no mention of Cell.

Goku was belittling Dabura's power and insisted that he wasn't that much to begin with, so he compares him to Cell.

Kid Gohan's power is still relevant in the Boo Saga while Super Perfect Cell's is not.

s-t. Goten and Gohan sparred evenly. Goten said he couldn't hit Gohan once, but that was probably because of Gohan's experience. Besides,
neither did Gohan hit Goten once.

Sparring is completely different from fighting.

u. About that, there is no correct answer. It's up to anyone's insticts. I decided to go with that.

Incorrect.

The artwork clearly shows that Gohan was a Super Saiyan. His hair is drawn that way, there are no sparks and his aura is drawn the same as every other Super Saiyan. However, his aura isn't the same as it was at the tournament.

It's definitely not subjective.

v. Why not equal to Kid Gohan? Goku also said he could manage something against Kid Buu and they were equals. I gave the adult SSJ2s a
Vegeta/Zarbon like advantage over Initial Fat Buu. Isn't this enough? Vegeta was laughing at Zarbon as well.

Please revise my thread on Fat Boo Initial and Teen Gohan. It's labeled as 'Kid Gohan and Majin Vegeta/Goku' or something like that.

w. I didn't want to complicate things so much to give separate PLs for arm strength.

I debunked the notion of Z-Swrd Gohan increasing so much in another thread.

x-y. I already told you, this is the ''classic theories'' list. I'll experiment with your theories next time.

See point P

z. Piccolo thought Base Gotenks post could do what SSJ Gotenks pre couldn't. What else do you need?

I debunked this in my 'Gotenks SSj3 Post' thread.

1. Huh? I i didn't make the Base Kids post stronger than SSJ Kids pre. Which list are you reading? Base Gotenks post>SSJ Gotenks pre came from

Gotenks Base to surpass his previous Super Saiyan form, the kids would need to as well. Especially if you follow the silly verdict that Goku can magically predict how strong a fusion would be when he hasn't seen the kids at full power.

2. I gave Ultimate Gohan the typical 1.33x stomp gap over FP Super Buu. What's wrong with that?

Gohan stomped Boo so much more than Gotenks did man.

3. Lol, even SSJ2 Vegeta was barely a factor. But, i might make him weaker. Where do you think he must stand?

He's probably 75% of Vegeta at most.

4. No need. I think Suppressed Namek Saga Goku could do to Recoome/Jeice/Butta in one on one fights the same things SSJ Vegerrot did to
Buuhan.

Alrighty than.

@h0kuten

Once again, this does not prove at all that the gap between Goku and Freeza is nearly as big as the Daizenshuu implies... your analyze doesn't prove the gap between SSJ Goku and Freeza is as big as 20%, it only proves SSJ Goku is stronger than Freeza, nothing new here.

The Daizenshuu level for 100% Freeza is way off. Even more when it has Zarbon being 95% of Vegeta and Dodoria being at 91% of Vegeta.

According to then, Piccolo's only 13% weaker than Nappa and gets almost one-shotted, while with a larger gap, Freeza is able to fight evenly for multiple times and the main reason for his loss was the 100% power.

Goku had every opportunity to finish Freeza, and he even says he won't let him buy any more time.

It took all the way until near the explosion of Namek for Son Goku to defeat Freeza, and both were evenly exchanging blows for a while and being knocked by them, like you can see here

Spoiler

Or here

Spoiler

Son Goku even said he is only sparing Freeza now that he is passed the peak and kept stagnating due to the strain of using 100%, which was the main reason that he lost. Before that he announced Freeza was going to die multiple times and genuinely tried with his Kamehameha. Had the gap been massive, it would not even be worth of discussing.

This concludes my closing argument and proves that Freeza never stood a chance to begin with. He was unable to keep up with Goku and goku already knew he was much stronger than him. King Kai was watching the entire fight unfold and addressed it as a flat out stomp in favor of Goku.

Nope... this was before Freeza used his 100%. Kaio was talking about SSJ Goku vs 50% Freeza.




#18's facial expression was the same in the fight against Vegeta, and after Vegeta told her to not hold back, she said Okay, then.... This proves nothing. And, like I said, the kids were in the Mighty Mask costume and its restrictions and Trunks even said winning as a SSJ would be difficult in that costume. Clearly the costume was a pain in the ass.

After a few exchanges, #18 quickly realized they were not humans. Her punches did not hurt them at all, either.

Besides this, #18 seemed to take Mighty Mask more seriously than she did SSJ Vegeta in the Androids saga.



Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P9.2-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P12.2
Context: talking about the two disguised as Mighty Mask
No.18: “…That weird long-torso freak isn’t anyone ordinary…His small arms had surprisingly powerful punches.”


Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1
Context: after continuing to fight No.18
Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…”
No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?”
Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.”

Rather than continuing to humor you, I'll debunk your argument with this simple scan.

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P4.5
Kaio: “Son Goku had done well…With Freeza as his opponent, he was completely winning the fight through overwhelming strength…But the cornered Freeza wiped Planet Namek itself out…”

He was COMPLETELY WINNING by strength alone. Therefore Goku & Freeza aren't near equals or rivals.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Tosh, i won't start exchanging walls of text with you, like the others, i'll just point a few things i feel i need to...
1. As you said, i have FP 2nd Form Freeza 1.85m and Unweighted Piccolo 2m. This is not, to me, a destructive advantage.
2. What was said about 19's endurance to pain does not apply to 17/18, because those were not fully robotic. Besides, even 19 flinched when Vegeta
stomped him.
3. I think 1.33x is enough for Gohan to do what he did to Super Buu.

 

[ahill]

Rather than continuing to humor you, I'll debunk your argument with this simple scan.
Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P4.5
Kaio: “Son Goku had done well…With Freeza as his opponent, he was completely winning the fight through overwhelming strength…But the cornered Freeza wiped Planet Namek itself out…”

He was COMPLETELY WINNING by strength alone. Therefore Goku & Freeza aren't near equals or rivals.

And like I said, Kaio said that before Freeza started using his full-power.