Would you say Vegeta's character regressed in earlier Boo arc?
- Thread starter ahill1
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Yeah I'm not sure I'd go as far as to call it regression. Vegeta was completely dejected at the end of the Cell Games and lamented the fact that Goku was gone for good. After 7 years of carrying on without your top rival, I can see why Vegeta went to such extremes knowing that he only had that one opportunity to ever fight Goku again.
It's hard to believe that his pride would allow himself to power up that way but it shows how deep his obsession with Goku really was.
It's hard to believe that his pride would allow himself to power up that way but it shows how deep his obsession with Goku really was.
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Would it be regression or kinda tied with character growth, since his resolve to be evil was all tied to his rivalry and obsession with Goku, which he still hadn't let go of? I think with the overall theme being he still needing to prove himself for Goku, it wouldn't be so much of a regression but part of a character progression in which his apparent shift towards evil and cold blooded has all the unaddressed reason of not being in peace with Goku and not setting the score, which was a significant point at the end of the Boo arc. With him fighting for others, I acknowledge though, Piccolo already saw he did it in the CGs. This moment may be more significant tho, perhaps, that besides the stressing of fighting for others, he's doing that all while letting go of his obsession with Goku and acknowledging him and his value, as he mentioned Kakarrot alongside Bulma and Trunks. And maybe Vegeta holding Trunks for the first time may have a more sentimental value in regards to showing being more affectionate in face of someone he believed he'd never see again. Just some thoughts.
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It's the very opposite for me. For one, Babidi didn't even control him. Still, asking for Babidi's "help" was the final blow to Vegeta's ego (alongside SSJ3). If he can put aside his ego and ask for Babidi's power up, why can't he put aside his ego and respect Goku as his superior?
Yeah it's like if a friend rellapses into drugs or something. You don't put your fists into the sky and call God a bad writer.
Yeah it's like if a friend rellapses into drugs or something. You don't put your fists into the sky and call God a bad writer.
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Vegeta wasn't written in a consistent way after Namek to begin with.
He ignores the fact that DrGero almost killed his wife and son and makes it pretty clear he doesn't care about them, when he is stuck training in the chamber with only Future Trunks for a year he still ignores him, he even beats him up and sides with Cell.
Then Trunks die and he suddenly cares and then retires out of fighting.
All of this is forgotten once the Buu saga starts, i guess he went out of retirement to be an out of shape teenager like Gohan.
Then the Majin Vegeta part is Cell saga all over again, he gives 0 shits and almost kills his own wife in the stadium, then he suddenly remembers he cares about her.
He ignores the fact that DrGero almost killed his wife and son and makes it pretty clear he doesn't care about them, when he is stuck training in the chamber with only Future Trunks for a year he still ignores him, he even beats him up and sides with Cell.
Then Trunks die and he suddenly cares and then retires out of fighting.
All of this is forgotten once the Buu saga starts, i guess he went out of retirement to be an out of shape teenager like Gohan.
Then the Majin Vegeta part is Cell saga all over again, he gives 0 shits and almost kills his own wife in the stadium, then he suddenly remembers he cares about her.
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It just wasn't an exciting heel turn IMO. "Here we go again..." sums up that fiasco.
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How is it a regression? From what?
He accepted Goku was gone, so moved on and got new motivations for training, because he had no other choice. But the desire to compete with Goku still was in him - he just buried it. But then he heard Goku was coming back - probably at that point he thought he could get a chance to compete with Goku, given his happy reaction to being drawn against him in the budokai. At that point the lid was off and the rivalry was reawakened. The rush of that rivalry was more than the rush of whatever other motivations he found during the timeskip and he was looking forward to finally letting loose again. Have you ever had a passion that you suppressed - and then you allow yourself to get a taste of it and it excites you as much as it always did? Then the bullshit with Babidi got in the way, so he was like "fuck this, I need an excuse to fight Goku, but I can't be a dickhead", felt Babidi trying to take him over and let Babidi do it, so he could take the decision to force the contest with Goku out of his own hands.
He accepted Goku was gone, so moved on and got new motivations for training, because he had no other choice. But the desire to compete with Goku still was in him - he just buried it. But then he heard Goku was coming back - probably at that point he thought he could get a chance to compete with Goku, given his happy reaction to being drawn against him in the budokai. At that point the lid was off and the rivalry was reawakened. The rush of that rivalry was more than the rush of whatever other motivations he found during the timeskip and he was looking forward to finally letting loose again. Have you ever had a passion that you suppressed - and then you allow yourself to get a taste of it and it excites you as much as it always did? Then the bullshit with Babidi got in the way, so he was like "fuck this, I need an excuse to fight Goku, but I can't be a dickhead", felt Babidi trying to take him over and let Babidi do it, so he could take the decision to force the contest with Goku out of his own hands.
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Ok he didn't go Majin because he wanted to fight. It was for the power increase. Still, I don't think wanting to fight Goku is a regression. As for letting Babidi take him over specifically for a power increase...idk about regression, but maybe it is out of character. The only other times I remember him trying to get stronger without using his own body and mind is when he wanted the dragon balls for immortality to defeat Freeza and when Guru powered him up to fight GinyuF/Freeza...would he want to get a free power up just to fight Goku? Especially when he suggests the gap will reappear due to Goku's genius? Maybe, because Goku was only alive for a day, so he could have had a great, even fight with Goku (or even win) and then Goku dies again and Vegeta can give himself the chance to believe for the rest of his life that he's even with Goku. Or more likely, he just wants the experience of the fight with Goku and is desperate to have the power to actually enjoy it (by not being way weaker) on the only day he has.
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^ Guru didn't power up Vegeta, only Kuririn and Gohan. But overall I agree, I think it wasn't a regression in the sense he's evil again, because he "turning evil" like you said was more about wanting to settle the score --- the only thing he didn't let go of and still bothered him at the Cell arc, given his annoyance at Goku dying and then he never getting a chance (or so he thought) to fight Goku again... And then it culminates with the speech at the end, which sounded like the true progression that was missing, acknowledging Goku and letting go of his obsession with him. He even says "a Saiyan who loves to fight AND is kind... I should hate you... Good luck, Kakarrot, you're the champion", contrasting with the old Vegeta who should hate Goku and the one who now sees value in Goku's way of being, acknowledges why despite his immense effort he could never surpass him and makes peace with this. I think the Majin part was all a part of this development that was missing. Though what could have been repetitive I think would be enforcing the love he had for other ones with Piccolo saying "for the first time Vegeta is fighting for someone other than himself, giving his life for it"... Whereas Piccolo noticed how Vegeta stood for Trunks in the CGs and I think him offering Vegeta a hand there post the battle with Cell could be this subtle acknowledgement of this side of the not totally egotistical Vegeta showing up, which didn't need to be reinforced in the Boo saga, as it was apparent by then he didn't only fight for himself, though one could argue it was Toriyama's way of making that more clear.
Also, I wouldn't say Vegeta standing for Trunks in the CGs was a contradiction compared to how he acted not caring when Gero almost killed Bulma and baby Trunks... Just that Vegeta developed those feelings towards Trunks with the time they spent in the RoSaT... And that "siding with Cell" was way more his Saiyans side wanting a challenge, not picking Cell over Trunks, just wanting the challenge of the battle. I think the fact Cell reached completion greatly due to him and him seeing his son dead may have struck some deep responsibility upon him too. Future Bulma knew Vegeta had a soft side but she was surprised when Trunks told her that... Implying Cell arc Vegeta also grew in regards to his feelings.
I could grant though that the pragmatic Vegeta from the Freeza arc who generally sought safer routes, like wanting Kuririn to near kill him before Freeza turned into his true self, didn't show himself in the Cell arc, where he mostly got careless, too overconfident. It could be argued though that awakening a SSJ made him more that way --- Piccolo said he regained his pride upon achieving the SSJ, while in the Freeza arc he was always under an inferior position power wise compared to Freeza, not to mention Freeza likely resonating strongly to him too, as that wall that was tough to overcome, while his gains in the Cell arc, plus different perspectives of enemies who didn't have the same impact upon him, making him more careless in general.
In the Boo arc he also seemed initially careless, saying no matter how strong Boo was, let him awaken. But I think that may also be different since he was always talking from a superior position... from a power of SSJ2 perspective there, which he felt couldn't be overcame. It seems that Freeza arc aside, he always thought the Saiyans would prevail overall, with SSJ and then later with SSJ2. When fat Boo appeared half dead, he was ready to kill him due to the possibility of things going astray again and he creating another Boo, so it may be argued this perspective changes a lot when he feels the real threat of the opponents.
Also, I wouldn't say Vegeta standing for Trunks in the CGs was a contradiction compared to how he acted not caring when Gero almost killed Bulma and baby Trunks... Just that Vegeta developed those feelings towards Trunks with the time they spent in the RoSaT... And that "siding with Cell" was way more his Saiyans side wanting a challenge, not picking Cell over Trunks, just wanting the challenge of the battle. I think the fact Cell reached completion greatly due to him and him seeing his son dead may have struck some deep responsibility upon him too. Future Bulma knew Vegeta had a soft side but she was surprised when Trunks told her that... Implying Cell arc Vegeta also grew in regards to his feelings.
I could grant though that the pragmatic Vegeta from the Freeza arc who generally sought safer routes, like wanting Kuririn to near kill him before Freeza turned into his true self, didn't show himself in the Cell arc, where he mostly got careless, too overconfident. It could be argued though that awakening a SSJ made him more that way --- Piccolo said he regained his pride upon achieving the SSJ, while in the Freeza arc he was always under an inferior position power wise compared to Freeza, not to mention Freeza likely resonating strongly to him too, as that wall that was tough to overcome, while his gains in the Cell arc, plus different perspectives of enemies who didn't have the same impact upon him, making him more careless in general.
In the Boo arc he also seemed initially careless, saying no matter how strong Boo was, let him awaken. But I think that may also be different since he was always talking from a superior position... from a power of SSJ2 perspective there, which he felt couldn't be overcame. It seems that Freeza arc aside, he always thought the Saiyans would prevail overall, with SSJ and then later with SSJ2. When fat Boo appeared half dead, he was ready to kill him due to the possibility of things going astray again and he creating another Boo, so it may be argued this perspective changes a lot when he feels the real threat of the opponents.
