Yamucha (Android Arc) vs Ginyu (Goku's Body)

[Southern Gothic]

Ginyu has full access to Goku's power. Who wins?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I honestly am doubtful whether Yamcha and Tenshinhan even surpassed Saiyan-Saga Vegeta, so I'll say the Captain's got this.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

23k Ginyu-Galu got this.

 

[SIAD]

I have Yamcha (Android) = Freezer 12.5% (Namek). Therefore Yamcha wins overwhelmingly.

  The Humans (Arc Android) are strong enough to feel a mini help against 2 enemies even more powerful than Future Trunks SSJ (Debut), but still find Frieza 50% (Namek). Anyway Yamcha felt useless after being absorbed by the Android # 20, but even so, I do not think he is completely forrage next to Gohan, Krillin and Tenshinhan.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd use Gero's calculations as evidence for the humans' GAINZ for them being semi-relevant and even though Yamcha would be far behind Ten and Kuririn, he should still be above the 1mil range. He wouldn't be confident enough to show up when he had no intention of just being Goku's free taxi service home at first if he was some <90k jabroni like housewife Chaozu. Yamcha oneshots.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I honestly don't think there's much to even put Yamcha far above Nappa.

First off, Gero's radar is ass. And second, he never really seemed confident: He didn't believe the Androids were even real, and when he actually saw the Artificial Humans, he tried to call the other Z Fighters. His role as a fighter would be to give help via sneak attacks, a là the Z Fighters attacking Freeza while Goku was making his Genki-Dama.

Since the story doesn't need him to be stronger, we go by common sense. Sure, he's at the very least stronger than Nappa (As Gero mistook a suppressed Yamcha for Goku and Tenshinhan himself says he won't accept such a pathetic defeat (i.e. he will surpass Nappa), but that's about it. The training he did isn't show to yield gains much higher than 10,000. and Kuririn, his superior who had his full potential unlocked, acknowledged he could never be as strong as a Ginyu force member.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Dr. Gero IIRC said that because it was a human with high amount of power. That could have been anyone really. Goku surpressed when he arrived on Earth to 5000 and on Namek again so just being in 1000 area (not that he is) can already mean that Dr. Gero would mistake him for Goku.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

First off, Gero's radar is ass.

Whilst that's true, I would find it completely dumbfounding both in and out of universe if Gero were so arrogant within his own mind after admitting to himself SSJ Vegeta was far beyond what he'd expected. That said, I'd say using it as evidence for the humans' power is fair. I guess you could also use Ten dodging Gero's eye lasers, but that's quite a questionable feat when Piccolo saw them as being low level attacks even in his suppressed state. Still, there's a limit to how low level that is and it would be a big stretch to say their power and speed are less than that of a typical fighter in the ~1 mil range.
Ten and Yamcha are of course different, with Ten likely starting with a fair edge from the extra training on Kaio's, though Yamcha should still scale from the 3 year training GAINZ of the shoulder master when considering we have no indication of there being a vast difference in intensity for each of the human trio's training.

And second, he never really seemed confident: He didn't believe the Androids were even real, and when he actually saw the Artificial Humans, he tried to call the other Z Fighters. His role as a fighter would be to give help via sneak attacks, a là the Z Fighters attacking Freeza while Goku was making his Genki-Dama.

That's quite a fair point. Yamcha was indeed sceptical on Trunks' story. However, Ten was as well, yet still made it apparent he was taking no chances and training to his limits. You could assume Yamcha didn't give as much time to training due to breaking up with Bulma and getting a new girlfriend, but I doubt it'd result in him staying a dozen or so times weaker than Mr. Shoulders. Kuririn didn't really make any distinction between their two huge Kis, whereas he would've likely said something such as "One of the Kis is a lot smaller than the other" if so. Granted, they could have a similar resting level, but I find that unlikely.
Also, despite not expecting the Artificial Humans to be real, Yamcha didn't immediately turn tail after Trunks' words came true and he was confronted by both of them. He still got into a fighting stance, implying he believed he could at least last long enough for Goku to save him.

Since the story doesn't need him to be stronger, we go by common sense. Sure, he's at the very least stronger than Nappa (As Gero mistook a suppressed Yamcha for Goku and Tenshinhan himself says he won't accept such a pathetic defeat (i.e. he will surpass Nappa), but that's about it. The training he did isn't show to yield gains much higher than 10,000.

Looking at things with common sense, there's no reason for Yamcha to remain some jabroni in the 10ks or so. He was on Kaio's planet for 136 days and considering the gains Piccolo got from 6, it would be a huge stretch to assume Yamcha never surpassed him even after 130 days extra of similar training and 3 years more of intense training.

and Kuririn, his superior who had his full potential unlocked, acknowledged he could never be as strong as a Ginyu force member.

Yet Kuririn ended up surpassing all the Ginyus after a few hours.
I get what you mean, since Kuririn did have his potential unlocked and you could assume the human limits cap out below there, but that hypothesis seems deeply flawed with you Saichoro's unlocking, and limits bar Elder Kaioshin's ritual, are treat thereafter. Vegeta believed he'd reached his limit after Dende's healing and if we're to treat the initial potential unlocking level as something that would otherwise be a character's limit, we'd also have to assume something as ridiculous as the super special awesome mega ultra potential beast that is Gohan capping out at 14k or so naturally.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Tenshinhan said he knew trying to catch-up to Goku is pointless so he mainly worked-on a technique (Shin-Kikho).

 

[Captain Cadaver]

He only said he wouldn't catch up by doing the same routine and that he'd need to put his own twists on it. I doubt he'd be banking entirely on the Shin Kikoho, since if he were, he would've sat back and used it on #17 rather than charging in.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Own twist on it by saying something to the effect that he knows trying to get stronger isn't really a fruitful endeavour anymore and that he had his own way of being useful.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I doubt that. After all, he was still desiring to progress as a fighter and was determined to not let the Artificial Humans make a fool of him like Nappa did. I highly doubt he'd have that mindset if he were just a one trick pony.
His "own twist", whilst possibly being the conception of the Shin Kikoho, would likely consist primarily of something more along the lines of what Piccolo was doing and finding a familiar method in which to achieve good GAINZ.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Whilst that's true, I would find it completely dumbfounding both in and out of universe if Gero were so arrogant within his own mind after admitting to himself SSJ Vegeta was far beyond what he'd expected. That said, I'd say using it as evidence for the humans' power is fair. I guess you could also use Ten dodging Gero's eye lasers, but that's quite a questionable feat when Piccolo saw them as being low level attacks even in his suppressed state. Still, there's a limit to how low level that is and it would be a big stretch to say their power and speed are less than that of a typical fighter in the ~1 mil range.
Ten and Yamcha are of course different, with Ten likely starting with a fair edge from the extra training on Kaio's, though Yamcha should still scale from the 3 year training GAINZ of the shoulder master when considering we have no indication of there being a vast difference in intensity for each of the human trio's training.

From a out of universe perspective, that probably was Toriyama's intentions as he even admited in interview that he wrote the series with a smaller SSJ multiplier in mind. However, what Toriyama wanted and what he put on paper aren't always the same thing. Databooks confirm the SSJ multiplier was constantly 50x, and certain statements imply it might be even higher than that.

And yeah, 20's beams aren't much of a big deal. No reason to go all out just to destroy a couple buildings.

That's quite a fair point. Yamcha was indeed sceptical on Trunks' story. However, Ten was as well, yet still made it apparent he was taking no chances and training to his limits. You could assume Yamcha didn't give as much time to training due to breaking up with Bulma and getting a new girlfriend, but I doubt it'd result in him staying a dozen or so times weaker than Mr. Shoulders. Kuririn didn't really make any distinction between their two huge Kis, whereas he would've likely said something such as "One of the Kis is a lot smaller than the other" if so. Granted, they could have a similar resting level, but I find that unlikely.
Also, despite not expecting the Artificial Humans to be real, Yamcha didn't immediately turn tail after Trunks' words came true and he was confronted by both of them. He still got into a fighting stance, implying he believed he could at least last long enough for Goku to save him.

Nah, i don't think Yamcha trained less than Tenshinhan. Though it doesn't matter much as they've already exhausted their gains of training solo on earth's environment.

About the "Huge Ki" argument, Piccolo also lumped Kuririn, Gohan and Vegeta together as "Huge Kis". Not that i matters much as i don't think Tenshinhan and Yamcha are far different from each other. The gap should just be a bit bigger than what it was back on Earth, and they weren't that far apart in the first place.

And about Yamcha getting in a fight stance when #19 and #20 appeared, what else could he do? Play possum? The Androids are right in front of him, it's go big or go home. Goku an Vegeta also got in a fighting stance when Super Boo appeared, and it's made clear that they intended to blow Boo up and run away, not fight.

Looking at things with common sense, there's no reason for Yamcha to remain some jabroni in the 10ks or so. He was on Kaio's planet for 136 days and considering the gains Piccolo got from 6, it would be a huge stretch to assume Yamcha never surpassed him even after 130 days extra of similar training and 3 years more of intense training.

Oh yeah, there's Piccolo's gains. But there's a panel that might imply only Piccolo got a handjob from Toriyama there:

Killing Vegeta is still a hell of a feat for them, but Piccolo was all confident he could take on someone who's >> Vegeta at the same time.

Yet Kuririn ended up surpassing all the Ginyus after a few hours.
I get what you mean, since Kuririn did have his potential unlocked and you could assume the human limits cap out below there, but that hypothesis seems deeply flawed with you Saichoro's unlocking, and limits bar Elder Kaioshin's ritual, are treat thereafter. Vegeta believed he'd reached his limit after Dende's healing and if we're to treat the initial potential unlocking level as something that would otherwise be a character's limit, we'd also have to assume something as ridiculous as the super special awesome mega ultra potential beast that is Gohan capping out at 14k or so naturally.

Technically, Vegeta did hit his limits, from a certain point of view. When he goes train to fight the Androids he expresses how he had reached his limits, and only overcame them by becoming a Super Saiyan:

Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

A potential unlock is supposed to be one's limit (Bar Super making everyone stronger, but blame :toei and Toriyama hiring the guy who wrote AF for that). In Gohan's case, he was still a toddler at time, and his dormant power would increase as he grows up.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

From a out of universe perspective, that probably was Toriyama's intentions as he even admited in interview that he wrote the series with a smaller SSJ multiplier in mind. However, what Toriyama wanted and what he put on paper aren't always the same thing. Databooks confirm the SSJ multiplier was constantly 50x, and certain statements imply it might be even higher than that.

A fair point, though I'd disagree with the idea that the 50x boost remains a constant. After all, the gap between Base and SSJ Gotenks is never presented as being a 50x one, especially when the pre-Rosat versions of both are SS2 and SS3 tier respectively.
You could assume fusions are an exception, but if there's one such exception and Toriyama didn't intend for 50x to be the rule, is there truly such a rule in the first place?
Going into somewhat secondary sources, there's also GT and Super lowering the multipliers for SSJ, so...

Nah, i don't think Yamcha trained less than Tenshinhan. Though it doesn't matter much as they've already exhausted their gains of training solo on earth's environment.

I would agree if it weren't for other characters having made gains from Earth training. After all, Goku still made gains from Earth training with two people far weaker than he. I doubt Ten and Yamcha were just doing perpetual pointlessness. Also, with Chaozu being left behind, there was clearly some benchmark for relevance. Ten wouldn't have bothered showing up if he'd made little gains if he left his rent boy at home.

And about Yamcha getting in a fight stance when #19 and #20 appeared, what else could he do? Play possum?

Getting in a full Ki charging stance maybe?

Oh yeah, there's Piccolo's gains. But there's a panel that might imply only Piccolo got a handjob from Toriyama there:
Killing Vegeta is still a hell of a feat for them, but Piccolo was all confident he could take on someone who's >> Vegeta at the same time.

Considering Kaio was informing the group about what was happening in the fight, it's far from a stretch to assume he also kept them updated on the other events leading up to Vegeta VS Freeza.

Technically, Vegeta did hit his limits, from a certain point of view. When he goes train to fight the Androids he expresses how he had reached his limits, and only overcame them by becoming a Super Saiyan:

There are heavy implications of Vegeta at least catching up to Freeza fight Base Goku by the time of Mecha Freeza's arrival though, so his Namek self being his limit was bunk either way.

In Gohan's case, he was still a toddler at time, and his dormant power would increase as he grows up.

I'd question that. After all, Goten and Trunks aren't too much more physically developed in the Boo Arc than 5 year old Gohan, yet I doubt their Gohan tier potential would end up being any less of a boost as Gohan's when they were already on his pre-sword level.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

A fair point, though I'd disagree with the idea that the 50x boost remains a constant. After all, the gap between Base and SSJ Gotenks is never presented as being a 50x one, especially when the pre-Rosat versions of both are SS2 and SS3 tier respectively.
You could assume fusions are an exception, but if there's one such exception and Toriyama didn't intend for 50x to be the rule, is there truly such a rule in the first place?
Going into somewhat secondary sources, there's also GT and Super lowering the multipliers for SSJ, so...

The Boo Arc is an odd case with the SSJ multiplier tbf. If Dragon Ball had ended, we'd probably go along with that their bases never increased after SSJ was unlocked, but then the Boo Arc comes in and we have Base Saiyans super duper strong... And SSJ doesn't feel like the game changer it used to be. The idea of base form being the bulk of the SSJ was an idea only introduced in the Boo Saga.

I like to think their Bases remained all the same throughout the Cell Saga, but by the Boo Arc that was retconed and the SSJ multiplier is like 2-4x. The SSJ multiplier is so fucked up it makes me wanna give up on power levels.

I would agree if it weren't for other characters having made gains from Earth training. After all, Goku still made gains from Earth training with two people far weaker than he. I doubt Ten and Yamcha were just doing perpetual pointlessness. Also, with Chaozu being left behind, there was clearly some benchmark for relevance. Ten wouldn't have bothered showing up if he'd made little gains if he left his rent boy at home.

Piccolo did eventually work his way up to Goku's level, so that's where he could have started making some real gains. Though you can chalk it up to the plot dictating their gains as well. Piccolo even gained more power than Gohan with the same training merely because Toriyama wanted him to take the spotlight...

And Tenshinhan showing up but leaving Chaozu at home is more of a personality thing. He had already said he wants to fight and see what he can do no matter what, and he cares a lot about Chaozu. He also wanted him to stay behind in the Saiyan fight even though he'd made some good gains.

Considering Kaio was informing the group about what was happening in the fight, it's far from a stretch to assume he also kept them updated on the other events leading up to Vegeta VS Freeza.

That's true. Thinking about it, the revelation that Freeza is >>> Vegeta only happened after Piccolo was revived and went to Namek, when Freeza was already using his 4th form. By all we know Tenshinhan and Yamcha could've been as confident as Piccolo when it comes to fighting 1st form Freeza.

There are heavy implications of Vegeta at least catching up to Freeza fight Base Goku by the time of Mecha Freeza's arrival though, so his Namek self being his limit was bunk either way.

What are the implications?

I'd question that. After all, Goten and Trunks aren't too much more physically developed in the Boo Arc than 5 year old Gohan, yet I doubt their Gohan tier potential would end up being any less of a boost as Gohan's when they were already on his pre-sword level.

Not really. They are established as having even more potential than Gohan (With Gohan fearing they might surpass him even before the Budokai, and Daizenshuu 4 establishing tailless hybrids have far more potential). It just seems to be the case here that 7 year old Goten = Grown up Gohan in terms of potential.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

If we go by the JSAT Special maybe Yamcha could win, since he was in the carrot competition to fight Abo & Cado who were already revealed to be as high as Freeza, IIRC.

 

[SIAD]

If we go by the JSAT Special maybe Yamcha could win, since he was in the carrot competition to fight Abo & Cado who were already revealed to be as high as Freeza, IIRC.

Exact .

 

[Fantastische Hure]

If we go by the JSAT Special maybe Yamcha could win, since he was in the carrot competition to fight Abo & Cado who were already revealed to be as high as Freeza, IIRC.

Exact .

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The Boo Arc is an odd case with the SSJ multiplier tbf. If Dragon Ball had ended, we'd probably go along with that their bases never increased after SSJ was unlocked, but then the Boo Arc comes in and we have Base Saiyans super duper strong... And SSJ doesn't feel like the game changer it used to be. The idea of base form being the bulk of the SSJ was an idea only introduced in the Boo Saga.

Trunks already displayed feats to place his base form as somewhat significant against Future Cell.
I know that it isn't to the extent that that the Boo Arc implies, but those implications are quite dubious as well since evidence in the Boo Arc can have the Base Saiyans being anywhere from not leagues above #17 to relevant to many Cell Games characters. That said, I wouldn't say the Boo Arc is quite a divergence in the series' logic depending on how you interpret and prioritise the evidence.

Piccolo did eventually work his way up to Goku's level, so that's where he could have started making some real gains. Though you can chalk it up to the plot dictating their gains as well. Piccolo even gained more power than Gohan with the same training merely because Toriyama wanted him to take the spotlight...

Whilst that is true, I'd say it'd be a stretch to assume Goku only started to make large gains towards the tail end of his training.

And Tenshinhan showing up but leaving Chaozu at home is more of a personality thing. He had already said he wants to fight and see what he can do no matter what, and he cares a lot about Chaozu. He also wanted him to stay behind in the Saiyan fight even though he'd made some good gains.

A fair point, but I feel if it were purely due to his personality and taking into account Ten clearly no when he's out of his league such as not bothering with the Rosat, he would've probably bothered mentioning something along the lines of "I've long since hit my limit, but I can't just sit back."

Also, less to do with our discussion but more to do with an interesting point I thought may detract from the idea of Ten being as strong as I make him out to be that may be useful in later discussions - Do you think Gero could've been factoring in the Kikoho based on his data when talking about surpassing Vegeta? It seems like a stretch, but I can imagine Gero trying to bait Ten into using it.

What are the implications?

Vegeta saying that Goku better not think he's superior just because of SSJ and that he'd eventually surpass him. Sounds like a big stretch if Vegeta had already reached his limits and even if gaining SSJ, would still be below Galu.

If we go by the JSAT Special maybe Yamcha could win, since he was in the carrot competition to fight Abo & Cado who were already revealed to be as high as Freeza, IIRC.

Pretty sure in both the anime and manga, Tarble only stated they were above Freeza when the kids were about to fight them. Prior to that, he only confirmed they were stronger than him and used to rival the Ginyu Tokusentai.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

OK. Thank you, in that case Yamcha is probably still > Recoome there.