Oden vs Rayleigh

[Warmmedown]

Either head-to-head who would win or who was stronger?

 

[SSJ2]

I'd give it to Rayleigh with high-extreme difficulty. After the Roger pirates disbanded, Oden was roughly equal to or slightly ahead of Kaido. It's debatable whether or not Kaido became stronger than that over the next 20 years, but even if not, I'd have Rayleigh slightly ahead of that level. Garp was treating him as if he was almost on par with Whitebeard in terms of the preparation the Marines would have needed to do to take him down (not knowing Rayleigh had gotten weaker of course).

 

[Symbiote]

If it's Prime Ray I'd say he wins high difficulty.

 

[Future Warrior]

I think it's interesting that Kaido doesn't envision Prime Rayleigh among these other legends.

Of course it's possible Oda wanted to be minimalistic with the amount of people he could fit, which is why we don't see Garp (at the same time he might be using pirates exclusively).

I think it's extreme diff either way, but I favor Oden. I don't know if Kaido will speak about Prime Ray the way he does Oden throughout that entire arc.

 

[SSJ2]

Rayleigh has the issue of flying under the radar of the Pirate King. Nobody is going to talk about him when Roger is the one taking all the spotlight. Big Mom and Shiki weren't included either.

 

[Warmmedown]

Yah. Is Shiki mentioned in the manga ever? Btw wasn't he weak asf later, like he lost to the pre-skip Strawhats? I watched Strong World but don't remember how it went, besides the intro with Luffy going down a cliff being cool. That's like Coby, Helmeppo and Tashigi arresting Rayleigh (ok not quite).

Maybe he never fought Rayleigh. He'd remember Roger, Rocks and WB for obvious reasons (all were the strongest or pirate king), Shanks is his other enemy, Oden is his enemy who injured him. Luffy would remember Croc and Enel but not Jabara, even though Jabara is stronger. Zoro would remember Mr 1 and not Doflamingo.

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah he's shown in the Rocks flashback. He's also referenced as the only pirate to had broken out of Impel Down.

And yeah he lost to Luffy in Strong World but it's not canon.

 

[Future Warrior]

Rayleigh has the issue of flying under the radar of the Pirate King. Nobody is going to talk about him when Roger is the one taking all the spotlight. Big Mom and Shiki weren't included either.

Well, imagining Big Mom would be a bit strange considering she's right there next to him. It would almost be like including himself. Shiki is a fair argument I guess, though believe it or not Oden has even more hype than he does.

But that panel is not the reason for my view and I agree with your takes related to that, I just don't believe Prime Rayleigh outright beats Kaido in a fight (I could see him beating Big Mom maybe cause Oda gave her shit portrayal, though still probably not).

 

[SSJ2]

What do you think about Kaido having gotten stronger over 20 years? That would change things. We never saw Kaido’s hybrid form against Oden, though it hadn’t been seen in the manga yet obviously. Kaido just seemed weaker to me in the flashback.

 

[Future Warrior]

I'm sure he did, I don't think Oden beats Kaido either. I think we just have different perceptions of Rayleigh's power level. I think he pushes Kaido to a high diff but he doesn't rival him. Oden is Kaido's rival.

 

[SSJ2]

Prime Roger >= Prime Whitebeard > Garp >= Shiki > Shanks = Current Kaido = Prime Rayleigh >= Big Mom >= Oden >= Kaido 20 years ago

That’s how I see it. And don’t be misled by the amount of tiers. Everyone past Shiki is extremely close IMO.

 

[Future Warrior]

After some thinking I think Kaido’s admiration for Oden was more about the fact that he was the first to challenge his self image of being an invincible monster. Not that he was an opponent that he felt inferior to.

I mean, Mihawk is known as the Worlds Strongest Swordsman. So Kaido understands himself that Mihawk > Oden. Yet we know that he still perceives himself as being the strongest in the world right now.

I haven’t reread Wano yet but that’s my general thoughts right now.

 

[SSJ2]

Kaido views Oden as a worthy rival. I think he viewed him as an equal, definitely not as someone he was inferior to. Kaido probably viewed himself as being stronger than Shanks too.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Oden becomes cooked...

 

[Future Warrior]

Kaido views Oden as a worthy rival. I think he viewed him as an equal, definitely not as someone he was inferior to. Kaido probably viewed himself as being stronger than Shanks too.

If the chain is Kaido > Mihawk > Oden, then he'd see him as a formidable opponent but not necessarily someone he'd ever lose to. Equal is kinda stretching it in my opinion.

 

[SSJ2]

Kaido probably got stronger over the 20 years.