20x KK Goku - 50% Freeza - 20x KK/KHH gaps

[Hector]

When Goku was about to fire the KHH, he said, "Please, let him be bluffing this time." That implies that if Freeza is bluffing and cannot increase his power any further, the 20x KK/KHH is expected to deal him serious damage.

As we saw earlier with Recoome against Vegeta's pseudo-final flash, a blast that is around the target's PL does not deal serious damage. Therefore, for Goku's expectations to be reasonable, the 20x KK/KHH combo must be visibly above 50% Freeza.

Goku 20x KK - 9
Freeza 50% - 10
Goku 20x KK - 12
Freeza 60% (catching the blast) - 12
Freeza 70% (stopping the blast) - 14
FP Freeza - 20
SSJ Goku - 22.5

Another approach is to accept that the full KHH multiplier (which is 1.5x in my books) is applied to the already multiplied by the kaioken power. In that case, Freeza has to have powered up to 70% just to catch the blast. Then we accept the filler part in which Freeza counters with a blast of his own as canon.

Goku 20x KK - 9
Freeza 50% - 10
Goku 20x KK - 13.5
Freeza 70% (catching the blast) - 14
Freeza 70% (counter blast) - 16
FP Freeza - 20
SSJ Goku - 22.5

Alternately, we can accept as cannon the filler part with Freeza (when beating up Goku) saying he's only using a third of his power after all.

Goku 20x KK - 9
Freeza 33.3% - 10
Goku 20x KK - 13.5
Freeza 50% (catching the blast) - 15
FP Freeza - 30

In the last case, we need to increase the SSJ multiplier to 60x.

 

[AngelBorninHell]

If creative liberty is a thing:

Kaioken x20 Goku: 20
50% Frieza: 30
Kkx20 Goku KMH: 33
Frieza (vs KMH): 36
70% Frieza: 42
100% Frieza: 60
SSJ Goku: 67,5

 

[Power Level Guy]

@Hector

This is a great topic. I've been struggling with this as well. The power is takes to stop a Kamehameha in its tracks like Freeza did requires quite a significant power advantage.

Freeza does seem to remark that he could have been killed as well.


Powered Up Freeza >> Kamehameha >> 50% Freeza

Seems to be implied.

Yet, how much stronger did Freeza get? How much power did he tap into? For this to be true, he'd have to tap into 70% power or even more.

This seems to be very conflicting with him because when he reveals his 70% power later, it seems to be the first time he uses it.

Hmmm...

Maybe Freeza really did raise his power tremendously high...

Goku 20x KK - 12
Freeza 60% (catching the blast) - 12

The issue here is that he can't catch it as equals. To catch it in this way, to stop it dead in it's tracks is tough to do at equals levels.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Alternately, we can accept as cannon the filler part with Freeza (when beating up Goku) saying he's only using a third of his power after all.

Goku 20x KK - 9
Freeza 33.3% - 10
Goku 20x KK - 13.5
Freeza 50% (catching the blast) - 15
FP Freeza - 30

In the last case, we need to increase the SSJ multiplier to 60x.

I feel like this may be the answer...

Maybe if Freeza isn't anywhere near 50% power initially it'll work...


Damn, does this prove that Kaioken actually has amp here? Crap!

Damn. This also proves the Super Saiyan boost is higher than we thought. Shoot!

 

[Power Level Guy]

50% Frieza: 30
Kkx20 Goku KMH: 33
Frieza (vs KMH): 36

This all seems way too tight. Catching a Kamehameha with one hand is a big feat. It shouldn't be a rivaling gap. And if he could have almost died, it couldn't have been rivaling either.


Freeza (Catching KHH) >> Kamehameha >> Previous Freeza

 

[Power Level Guy]

Welcome back my friend! @Pyro

and yeah, you are coming back at a good time. In our efforts to try to make sense of Ki blasts and how they react to opponents whether strong or weak, we’ve stumbled into some interesting issues.

50% Freeza vs Kamehameha is one of our biggest head scratchers. Glad to have you back on board!

 

[Hector]

The issue here is that he can't catch it as equals. To catch it in this way, to stop it dead in it's tracks is tough to do at equals levels.

He struggled with it for a few moments. Maybe they were equal during that time.

 

[SSJ2]

I feel like this could just as easily be an effort related thing. Freeza clearly wasn't exerting himself fully at the start.

 

[AngelBorninHell]

This all seems way too tight. Catching a Kamehameha with one hand is a big feat. It shouldn't be a rivaling gap. And if he could have almost died, it couldn't have been rivaling either.

Freeza (Catching KHH) >> Kamehameha >> Previous Freeza

No, that implies he concentrated all his power into one hand. Frieza used everything he had and still was an extreme-diff situation.

 

[Power Level Guy]

No, that implies he concentrated all his power into one hand. Frieza used everything he had and still was an extreme-diff situation.

Everthing Freeza has is enough to give him a major advantage over the Kamehameha either way.

And no way did Freeza use 100%.

The Kamehameha wasn't even capable of moving Freeza one inch.

 

[Power Level Guy]

He struggled with it for a few moments. Maybe they were equal during that time.

They definitely were never equal. We know what an equal blast looks like. Freeza was having trouble with his control over it and it was starting to overwhelm him, but he's superior no doubt.

I feel like this could just as easily be an effort related thing. Freeza clearly wasn't exerting himself fully at the start.

He stopped it dead in it's tracks without full effort. But it seems the size and duration of it was overwhelming.

 

[AngelBorninHell]

Everthing Freeza has is enough to give him a major advantage over the Kamehameha either way.

And no way did Freeza use 100%.

The Kamehameha wasn't even capable of moving Freeza one inch.

Frieza used below 70% which is why he greeted his teeth that much.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Frieza used below 70% which is why he greeted his teeth that much.

Ok, but are you going to acknowledge that Freeza stopped it dead in its tracks and the power advantage needed for that?

Like, he has a similar advantage to Raditz had over Kamehameha don't you think?

 

[AngelBorninHell]

@PowerLevelGuy@

I dunno, I don't even know where are you getting with that... the most I can push Frieza for this feat is 62,5%, but it still gives pretty little space given all the powers that came before Super Saiyan Goku are heavily implied to be 70% Frieza (and this is also the Genkidama included).

The KMH gives much more trouble to Frieza than what the Genkidama needed to raze him. At the very least, that implies the KMH was closer to whatever power Frieza used to stop it than what Frieza was to the Genkidama.

I'm very inclined to believe:

70% Frieza > Genkidama > Frieza (vs KMH x20/Genkidama) > Kaioken x20 Goku KMH > 50% Frieza.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I dunno, I don't even know where are you getting with that... the most I can push Frieza for this feat is 62,5%, but it still gives pretty little space given all the powers that came before Super Saiyan Goku are heavily implied to be 70% Frieza (and this is also the Genkidama included).

You are mixing up what I'm referring to. I'm not talking about Freeza's relation to his full power, I'm talking about the Kamehameha's relation to Freeza's power he had at the time.

So Goku's Kamehameha is 74% of Raditz. What I'm saying is KKx20 Kamehameha is probably around 75% of Freeza or so.

If Kkx20 Kamehameha is 60m, Freeza is around 80m at the time or so.

70% Frieza > Genkidama > Frieza (vs KMH x20/Genkidama) > Kaioken x20 Goku KMH > 50% Frieza.

I feel like this too, but it's a numerical impossibility.

If KKx20 Kamehameha is a 60, show me where the other numbers fit in.

@Hector thinks this is evidence for SSJ being a 60x boost but he's not realizing that 50% Freeza locks us in either way.

 

[Hector]

I'm very inclined to believe:

70% Frieza > Genkidama > Frieza (vs KMH x20/Genkidama) > Kaioken x20 Goku KMH > 50% Frieza.

How's this?

50% Freeza - 50
20x Kaioken Goku - 45
20x Kaioken/KHH - 55
Freeza vs KHH - 60
Genkidama - 65
70% Freeza - 70

 

[AngelBorninHell]

You are mixing up what I'm referring to. I'm not talking about Freeza's relation to his full power, I'm talking about the Kamehameha's relation to Freeza's power he had at the time.

It does because it creates many limitations onto how Frieza can be when he stopped the KMH, like us or not, and that it can be done under this premise.

If Kkx20 Kamehameha is 60m, Freeza is around 80m at the time or so.

And how do you have the Genkidama, then?

I feel like this too, but it's a numerical impossibility.

If KKx20 Kamehameha is a 60, show me where the other numbers fit in.

Kkx20 KMH: 60
Frieza (vs KMH): 62,5
Genkidama: 66

I can't make Frieza any stronger than this, at least not from this point. It's not anyone fault that Frieza said he used 70% and making a big announcement of that, he could've said he's using 80%, but it wasn't like it.

@Hector thinks this is evidence for SSJ being a 60x boost but he's not realizing that 50% Freeza locks us in either way.

I support it being 67,5x base under the notion of creative liberty.

How's this?

50% Freeza - 50
20x Kaioken Goku - 45
20x Kaioken/KHH - 55
Freeza vs KHH - 60
Genkidama - 65
70% Freeza - 70

Sounds very good, just would change Genkidama to 66.

 

[Power Level Guy]

How's this?

50% Freeza - 50
20x Kaioken Goku - 45

I think this is pretty good. I think KKx20 Goku shocks Freeza, takes him off guard and is able to land that hit. I think he reasserts himself, and then easily dodges Goku. The dodge he uses is exactly the same as Mr. Popo does against Great Ape Fist Goku. So keeping those the same is good IMO.

And we have to remember, Goku's initial reaction is "Nothing!"

He wasn't necessarily expecting a victory here, just some sort of damage or another.

Similar with Raditz, Goku wasn't expecting to decide the fight with the Kamehameha, but he certainly wasn't expecting him to straight up catch it.

20x Kaioken Goku - 45
20x Kaioken/KHH - 55

Considering Goku and Krillen's expectations on how the Kamehameha would fare, it seems likely there is at least some amp. I thought I could get away with no amp here, but honestly, it doesn't make sense. It makes sense that there is at least some amp. This is probably an appropriate amount.

20x Kaioken Goku - 45
Freeza vs KHH - 60

Holy crap, I think you did it.

Genkidama - 65
70% Freeza - 70

This might work my boy! Good work!

Ok damn, so we have a problem here. Let's do all your numbers but make KKx20 Goku=60 now. Let's see how that turns out.

But you have the right ratios right now. I think that's it! This would be huge.

Any issues or complaints you have right now? I think this is accounting for all of the many variables here.

 

[Power Level Guy]

It does because it creates many limitations onto how Frieza can be when he stopped the KMH, like us or not, and that it can be done under this premise.

These are two seperate issues is the point I'm making. Focus on one at a time.

Issue 1: What is Kamehamehas percentage of Freeza stopping the blast. Does it contradict other ki blast battles versus stronger opponents? We need correlation here.

Issue 2: 70% Freeza should be >> Freeza vs Kamehameha. That will be a tight squeeze but we can do it.

And how do you have the Genkidama, then?

Maybe a 90 or 100?

Kkx20 KMH: 60
Frieza (vs KMH): 62,5
Genkidama: 66

This is all way too close. These are all rivaling ranges, there should be significant differences between each one. Check out how Hector did his, I think he's got it down.

 

[AngelBorninHell]

Issue 1: What is Kamehamehas percentage of Freeza stopping the blast. Does it contradict other ki blast battles versus stronger opponents? We need correlation here.

I'd think 60% fits for the best, I doubt from 50 and 70% we will get a higher percent, specially accounting Toriyama's simple style.

Maybe a 90 or 100?

70% Frieza pushed SSJ Goku with a Kiai, is he unable to push the Genkidama with that?

This is all way too close. These are all rivaling ranges, there should be significant differences between each one. Check out how Hector did his, I think he's got it down.

Again, if it were me I would make Frieza says he used 80% as opposed to 70%, not my fault nor anyone else.