GSM's Part 1 Battle Powers

[Power Level Guy]

Speed up and wind chop seem equally impressive.

When Roshi's speeds up against Krillin, it's clear he is showcasing a new level. This is standard practice every other time in the series, but this time it's not. Why? "Numba too big" is not a valid counter.

 

[GSM123]

Chapter: 103, P11.2-4
Context: Goku defeated Mummy-kun.
Akkuman: “That brat’s quite good…”
Grandpa Gohan: “Heh heh heh”
Akkuman: “What’s so funny…?”
Grandpa Gohan: “Oh, nothing. Nothing at all. Heh.”
Akkuman: “He’s the first who’s ever made it this far… But there’s no way he can defeat me!”

Not the type of thing you normally say at equal powers...

Pretty much everyone says that at equal levels.

Chapter: 189, P5.2, P6.1
Piccolo: “You think you can win? There’s no way you can…! I’ve…I’ve…leveled up so much that I’m now many times stronger than I was when I fought you 3 years ago…!”
Goku: “Well then, I’ve gotten just a little bit stronger than even that.”

Akkuman also keeps insisting he can't lose while Goku clowns him. The way I see it Akkuman only needs to be capable of replicating Goku's feat to be confident.

Also I think mynumbers look too clean to change but I can probably work around that later lol.

Then why didn't he lead with any of those attacks and instead thought hand to hand would get it done?

Might not apply to this specific case, but fighters rarely start bringing out the main weapons. If you look around you'll notice the characters either ramp up later or warn they're going all out right off the bat.

When Roshi's speeds up against Krillin, it's clear he is showcasing a new level. This is standard practice every other time in the series, but this time it's not. Why? "Numba too big" is not a valid counter.

He is showing a new level, compared to right before. You can't say this is the highest level ever because it's still below Giran, remember? Also the "audience can't see" feat is rarely repeated in later Budokai fights. Even when Jackie goes all out to smash Kuririn the audience suddenly can see them again!

I think the logic here is that we're trying to measure the level of effort used in each segment as if they were power ups, right? If that's the case then you have to accept there isn't an always escalating level of effort. He's clearly trying harder on the wind chop than when he's dodging vs Kuririn.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Chapter: 189, P5.2, P6.1
Piccolo: “You think you can win? There’s no way you can…! I’ve…I’ve…leveled up so much that I’m now many times stronger than I was when I fought you 3 years ago…!”
Goku: “Well then, I’ve gotten just a little bit stronger than even that.”

Piccolo legitimately thinks that he is stronger. Your evidence literally proves it.

Might not apply to this specific case, but fighters rarely start bringing out the main weapons. If you look around you'll notice the characters either ramp up later or warn they're going all out right off the bat.

People rarely claim assured victory at equal levels.

He is showing a new level, compared to right before. You can't say this is the highest level ever because it's still below Giran, remember? Also the "audience can't see" feat is rarely repeated in later Budokai fights. Even when Jackie goes all out to smash Kuririn the audience suddenly can see them again!

I think Jackie is Wind Chop level when he starts the match with Krillin. What evidence do you have to suggest he's not other than "Numba too big and scawwy"?

 

[GSM123]

Piccolo legitimately thinks that he is stronger. Your evidence literally proves it.

Exactly. He claims he’s stronger while fighting evenly with Goku.

People rarely claim assured victory at equal levels.

People do this all the time, what are you talking about?

Spoiler

Do I need to continue?

I think Jackie is Wind Chop level when he starts the match with Krillin. What evidence do you have to suggest he's not other than "Numba too big and scawwy"?

You don’t think Freeza (Initial vs Goku) = Freeza (Kicking Vegeta’s blast).

You don’t think Goku (Warm up vs Cell) = 50% Goku.

I’m not sure, but I think you have Trunks (Vs Freeza) > Trunks (Vs Goku).

You probably have Vegeta (Vs 19) > Vegeta (Initial vs 18), since Vegeta says he wasn’t going all out at first on 18.

When Recoome speeds up vs Vegeta, you don’t treat that as a power up. You don’t treat Goku blitzing Ginyu as a power up either. You probay don’t see this as a power up, at least not a 1.5x one:

Spoiler

Did Cell power up when he started blitzing Goku? Did 3rd form Freeza power up to catch to Piccolo? Did Fat Boo power up to catch Gohan? Did Raditz power up here? This is the only instance where Goku can’t see Raditz.

Spoiler

A character speeding up is rarely considered a power up. Freeza vs Vegeta and Cell vs Gohan are probably the only cases because they’re genuinely powering up, instead of just showing the full speed of their current power, and that’s because their strength feats also improve, so the plot requires their power to rise.

Reading the Budokai, there is no mystery about Jackie’s power. Everybody knows how strong he is since his first fight. When a character is suppressed, it means he’s hiding power and will slowly unveil it to everyone’s surprise. People are impressed by Jackie’s feats, but not surprised. There’s not a single scene where anyone thinks Kuririn is Jackie’s equal.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Exactly. He claims he’s stronger while fighting evenly with Goku.

Which means he’s deluded or doesn’t know. He thinks he stronger, not even. Are you saying Devil is just deluded? Or that he actually thinks he’s stronger?

Do I need to continue?

They all think they are stronger. They are deluded from reality.

You don’t think Freeza (Initial vs Goku) = Freeza (Kicking Vegeta’s blast).

Because that’s what the evidence shows us.

You don’t think Goku (Warm up vs Cell) = 50% Goku.

Because that’s what the evidence shows.

I’m not sure, but I think you have Trunks (Vs Freeza) > Trunks (Vs Goku).

Once again, evidence.

You probably have Vegeta (Vs 19) > Vegeta (Initial vs 18), since Vegeta says he wasn’t going all out at first on 18.

I’m not sure about that. Not going all out might have to do with just the blast? But yet again, evidence.

When Recoome speeds up vs Vegeta, you don’t treat that as a power up. You don’t treat Goku blitzing Ginyu as a power up either. You probay don’t see this as a power up, at least not a 1.5x one:

I’d probably agree, I don’t think anyone’s ever argued that Reecome powered up but we know he sped up for sure.

Goku blitzed Ginyu? I have multiple power ups for Goku against Ginyu.

Did Cell power up when he started blitzing Goku? Did 3rd form Freeza power up to catch to Piccolo? Did Fat Boo power up to catch Gohan? Did Raditz power up here? This is the only instance where Goku can’t see Raditz.

Why would Cell need to have powered up? Because Goku was shocked?

Gohan was deluded just like Piccolo was against 3rd Form Freeza.

Not every shock means a powerup but Raditz did say he’d be slowly powering up as they fought.

I think you are confusing shock and surprise for meaning it’s a power up every time. The better way to look at it is understanding why they are shocked.

A character speeding up is rarely considered a power up. Freeza vs Vegeta and Cell vs Gohan are probably the only cases because they’re genuinely powering up, instead of just showing the full speed of their current power, and that’s because their strength feats also improve, so the plot requires their power to rise.

I’d disagree strongly. Almost every time there’s a speed up or a power up it’s shown clearly.

Reading the Budokai, there is no mystery about Jackie’s power. Everybody knows how strong he is since his first fight. When a character is suppressed, it means he’s hiding power and will slowly unveil it to everyone’s surprise. People are impressed by Jackie’s feats, but not surprised. There’s not a single scene where anyone thinks Kuririn is Jackie’s equal.

I think they are surprised because Jackie is continuously showing new levels of speed. If you look at the reaction the surprise is typically due to Jackie doing something even more amazingly fast than before.

Like all these counter examples have legitimate evidence showcasing they were not power-ups.

All I’m asking is where is your actual evidence showcasing it wasn’t a power up?

 

[GSM123]

Made some edits. Managed to find some extra spacing between Goku/Devil/Mummy without compromising the whole list.

that’s what the evidence shows us.

Such as?

All I’m asking is where is your actual evidence showcasing it wasn’t a power up?

Both speed up and wind chop are serious Jackie. He’s actually putting effort. Jackie dodging is clearly not serious at all.

There’s no doubt that he did level up in a sense (Though not in a ki control way, just in an effort way), the problem is just that your narrative that “he’s showing levels never before seen” is headcanon. There’s no escalation, just Jackie showing more of what he can do.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Both speed up and wind chop are serious Jackie. He’s actually putting effort. Jackie dodging is clearly not serious at all.

I disagree. I don't think Wind Chop is a completely different level than the Speed-Up he showed against Yamcha. Wind Chop just showcases the power of his new power-up.

the problem is just that your narrative that “he’s showing levels never before seen” is headcanon. There’s no escalation, just Jackie showing more of what he can do.

It's pure escalation, as it is 99% of the time. Show me the panels where you can showcase that it isn't a new level of power.

So are you saying Wind Chop > Speed-Up (vs Yamcha) because you are literally doing the thing you are accusing me of lol

 

[GSM123]

It's pure escalation, as it is 99% of the time. Show me the panels where you can showcase that it isn't a new level of power.

That’s not how it works broski. You can’t disprove a negative, the burden is aways on who makes the positive claim. Why would the casual Roshi who’s not even using his hands be the same serious Roshi blitzed Yamcha and forcefully waved him out? He took WFF Yamcha seriously and used a considerable amount of effort to finish him like that, did he not? It wasn’t a casual wind chop like Piccolo vs Goku.

 

[Power Level Guy]

That’s not how it works broski. You can’t disprove a negative, the burden is aways on who makes the positive claim. Why would the casual Roshi who’s not even using his hands be the same serious Roshi blitzed Yamcha and forcefully waved him out?

So you think Roshi showcases a new level of power, then downgraded that power to a significantly worse level?

 

[GSM123]

So you think Roshi showcases a new level of power, then downgraded that power to a significantly worse level?

Yeah, I think the Roshi who is trying is trying harder than the one who isn’t trying.

If you want to do a “punch by punch” breakdown of fights, that’s what you get. Specially when the stronger guy is toying. Not every punch is equal, nor are they infinitely stronger than the last. If you think Jackie is using full effort then he’s at full effort. No half measures.

Is this not just like Freeza underestimating Goku and using less power than he did vs Vegeta? This is clearly the narrative I’m seeing, instead of “Goku and Kuririn crapped themselves over a feat they can casually pull off”.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yeah, I think the Roshi who is trying is trying harder than the one who isn’t trying.

Why would Roshi step up his power, only to step down his power against someone who is entirely more formidable?

Like where is the implication, "Damn, Jackie is holding back on me?"

The narrative is opposite, Jackie's complimentary nature of Krillin's skills seem pointing towards complete respect.

Jackie is impressed. And then he's further impressed later by Krillin's ability to keep up.

Is this not just like Freeza underestimating Goku and using less power than he did vs Vegeta? This is clearly the narrative I’m seeing, instead of “Goku and Kuririn crapped themselves over a feat they can casually pull off”.

The Freeza vs Goku thing has actual evidence supporting it. As I mentioned, where is that supporting statement for your side?

Vegeta outright states that Freeza was holding back against Goku. Where is this missing statement for Wind Chop Roshi? I feel like you aren't understanding how we got there with Freeza vs Goku. If Vegeta doesn't make that statement, we'd be forced to assume that Goku was stronger than we thought.

 

[GSM123]

@Power Level Guy Jackie himself is surprised that Kuririn “made him work”, and later in the fight admits he’s been underestimating his students. He was never shown to expect a match from either of his students, he’s not impressed from their previous fights, so why would we think he’s starting full power?

It’s all in his body language. He starts both fights in the same stance (which Yamcha described as improper) and does nothing but dodge. That’s his lazy defense mode, gauging up his opponent.

When Jackie gets serious vs Yamcha, does he not look like he’s using a good chunk of his power? The dodge is casual, but the look in his eyes is pretty stern, and I think we agree. There’s also the part of dismissing the characters’ hype of it as just their insecurity.

Like where is the implication, "Damn, Jackie is holding back on me?"

I flip the question at you here - when Jackie blitzes Kuririn, should Goku and Yamcha not say something like “He’s faster than I thought” or “He wasn’t going all out yet”?

It’s not a matter of less power vs more power, but of defense vs offense. Attacking always uses more power than just dodging.

 

[SSJ2]

Jackie's effort level when he blitzes Yamcha looks equally as relaxed as the beginning of the fight against Krillin. He even does the same backflip dodge that looks no different than his movement against Yamcha. The only difference is Krillin made him work hard enough to need to block.

The speed up punch looks like the most effort Jackie put out up to that point and it's not even close.

 

[Power Level Guy]

so why would we think he’s starting full power?

Well that’s the thing. His Wind Chop power is already a supremely suppressed power. No reason to go any lower if the first finalist already pushed him up. But again, where is the evidence? Do you have one statement at least?

When Jackie gets serious vs Yamcha, does he not look like he’s using a good chunk of his power?

Sure, but Jackie has raised that level up now. Are you saying he starts off much slower against Krillin then he was against Yamcha?

 

[GSM123]

@SSJ2 @Power Level Guy updated.

 

[SSJ2]

Do you not give Goku a zenkai post Tambourine?

 

[SSJ2]

I'm not sure about 23rd Yajirobe being that weak. I'm fine with him being significantly below Yamcha/Krillin but this seems a little much.

 

[GSM123]

Do you not give Goku a zenkai post Tambourine?

He goes from 6250 to 7500.

I'm not sure about 23rd Yajirobe being that weak. I'm fine with him being significantly below Yamcha/Krillin but this seems a little much.

I’m not sure what to make of him, Chaozu and Chi Chi. He’s strong and is treated as if he’s comparable to the others, but I think he needs better feats to justify being so high. It’s not like the plot needs him to be that strong.

Yajirobe does compare himself to Yamcha indirectly when he says Shen > Yamcha, but I think that might be like Kuririn knowing Perfect Cell >>> Super Vegeta just from his suppressed tap.

For Chaozu and Chi Chi. Chaozu is featless and most likely weaker than Yajirobe, but there’s a lot of room for him. Chi Chi always felt like she’s the weakest for me - stronger than Chappa and the whole 22nd Budokai, but still within that tier based on how Goku beats her.

 

[SSJ2]

He goes from 6250 to 7500.

Oh shit I missed that. Your Piccolo Daimao arc looks really clean. I get why you put Cymbal at 2,500 but I don't agree with it. You can argue Yajirobe was taking it easy initially but he still needed full effort to destroy him.

I’m not sure what to make of him, Chaozu and Chi Chi. He’s strong and is treated as if he’s comparable to the others, but I think he needs better feats to justify being so high. It’s not like the plot needs him to be that strong.

Yajirobe does compare himself to Yamcha indirectly when he says Shen > Yamcha, but I think that might be like Kuririn knowing Perfect Cell >>> Super Vegeta just from his suppressed tap.

For Chaozu and Chi Chi. Chaozu is featless and most likely weaker than Yajirobe, but there’s a lot of room for him. Chi Chi always felt like she’s the weakest for me - stronger than Chappa and the whole 22nd Budokai, but still within that tier based on how Goku beats her.

Yeah these three are the hardest to place. I'd argue for Yajirobe that the fact he managed to somewhat keep up after Kami's training could be reasoning for strengthening him. You can argue it was due to his unnatural potential but to me it makes more sense if he was starting from a closer point.

Chi Chi is the toughest one to me. I've always had her as the weakest of the three but idk how it jives with wind chop logic. Especially if we're saying that Goku was at his full weighted power during that attack. If anything I think that should raise Chi Chi up further...

 

[Animelover5487]

What Yajirobe oneshotted Cymbal with his sword once he got serious. He went from pressuring Yaji with his lightning to being blitzed. Yaji was much stronger.