Ki Amp

Playing around with the Raditz numbers made me want to try this idea out.

Maybe taking Piccolo's statement to point towards ki amp progression over the years really isn't the best method here. Maybe Piccolo is just highlighting the weakness of the amp of the Kaioken Kamehameha.

Just think, Goku's Kamehameha against Raditz was enough to force him to ideally use his full power to block it. Considering that there was a huge disparity of power here, Goku's Kamehameha is a respectable technique to even Raditz. Piccolo's advantage over Cell is nowhere near Raditz advantage over Goku. Super Kamehameha was a respected technique at the 23rd Budokai as well. The only thing that makes sense is to use a tiny multiplier to go with Goku's Kamehameha.

Chapter: 363 (DBZ 169), P9.1-3
Cell: “Son Goku…Piccolo…and Vegeta’s cells were collected during the fight when Vegeta and co. came to Earth…”
Piccolo: “…Goku, from back then huh?...So that’s why your Kamehameha just now wasn’t anything special…”


Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P4.2
Piccolo: “I won’t let you get away…A Kamehameha of the kind of level as before won’t do you any good.”

Also, don't forget Vegeta is shocked that Goku's Kamehameha can keep up with his Galick Gun. Vegeta knows he can create ki blasts, so if his Galick Gun is only as strong as KKx3 Goku, it wouldn't make sense now would it?

Galick Gun = KKx3 Kamehameha > Expected Kamehameha

Vegeta is probably not expecting Goku to be able to add any additional power to his attack.

Also going back to Freeza, they expected at least something, we know KKx20 Goku ain't enough to do it so some amp here would be helpful for sure...



I'm thinking of using a 1.5x amp from Super Kamehameha on...

I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. Goku's attack was respectable back then, but not in the Android arc. Even if Imperfect Cell had a 10x KHH amp, if Piccolo could amp his own ki by 12x then it wouldn't matter how close Imperfect Cell was to Piccolo. Piccolo can easily out amplify him.

Hot take: We might be getting it all wrong, and Ki amp is not a thing at all. I mean, it is stronger than a punch, but other than a few select cases it doesn't change your power level. Like how a hard punch doesn't change a PL compared to a light punch.

Sure, Goku's KHH amplified his power level, but Ki control was much more primitive nowadays. 924 is the full power Goku could only dish out with a Ki blast. Later in the series Ki control is so advanced they can dish out full power with simple attacks. This follows with how Ki blasts stopped being such a efinitive finisher by the Freeza Saga.

Ki amp has never changed your power level, not in the way you’re describing. It’s only the ki blast itself that reads higher. You’re fundamentally misunderstanding what ki amp is.

Raditz: “He…He can raise his battle power by concentrating it into a single point!!!”

The problem is that most of the time in Z blasts look pretty meh, even in the manga. You fire a blast and it gets bounced back like your kicks were.

Right when the scouters were introduced the idea was "Number = power. Blast > Punch. Blast PL > Punch PL", but then it's more like PL = Overall battle capacity. Ki amp is inconsistent vs Vegeta and nonexistent on Namek.

SSJ2 said:

I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. Goku's attack was respectable back then, but not in the Android arc. Even if Imperfect Cell had a 10x KHH amp, if Piccolo could amp his own ki by 12x then it wouldn't matter how close Imperfect Cell was to Piccolo. Piccolo can easily out amplify him.

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Well Piccolo is outright dismissing the validity of the attack in its current state. Like Cell’s Kamehameha isn’t a real threat to Piccolo whereas a regular Kamehameha would be.

As I said, we have proof that Goku’s Kamehameha against Raditz was a legit threat.

It’s not about Piccolo out amplifying him, Piccolo was about to be shook of a real Kamehameha which should threaten him, but this did not really threaten him.

Check this out.

Cell 180
Kamehameha 200
Piccolo 220
Expected Kamehameha 270

A 270 Kamehameha could legit threaten Piccolo, where he’s actually in real trouble. And then this pitiful little thing ends up being nothing.

GreatSaiyaman123 said:

but other than a few select cases it doesn't change your power level.

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Kamehameha 100% changes your power level.

GSM123 said:

The problem is that most of the time in Z blasts look pretty meh, even in the manga. You fire a blast and it gets bounced back like your kicks were.

Right when the scouters were introduced the idea was "Number = power. Blast > Punch. Blast PL > Punch PL", but then it's more like PL = Overall battle capacity. Ki amp is inconsistent vs Vegeta and nonexistent on Namek.

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I get that, but I chalk that up to bad writing that we just have to work with. This is why p likes discarding the 2.2x amp these days.
I wouldn't say it's nonexistent on Namek btw. It's pretty reasonable that Vegeta's blast against final form Freeza is amped, no? It has to be. Freeza kicks it back but that shows how insanely powerful he is. Vegeta's blast against Recoom is the more problematic one to work with.

Power Level Guy said:

Kamehameha 100% changes your power level.

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Indeed. I don’t think anyone ever said that about the Kamehameha specifically, but there are cases when someone is charging an attack and people say “Wow what Ki!”.

Kyo said:

I get that, but I chalk that up to bad writing that we just have to work with. This is why p likes discarding the 2.2x amp these days.
I wouldn't say it's nonexistent on Namek btw. It's pretty reasonable that Vegeta's blast against final form Freeza is amped, no? It has to be. Freeza kicks it back but that shows how insanely powerful he is. Vegeta's blast against Recoom is the more problematic one to work with.

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What I’m saying is pretty much a fancy version of “Toriyama didn’t think much of most Ki attacks”, which you could call bad writing.

The problem with Vegeta’s blast slightly surpassing Recoome is that it dealt zero damage. Sure, he looks messed up, but in reality it just tickled him. People bring up Goku and Piccolo’s beam struggle a lot, but Piccolo was hurt from that at least.

Cell vs Piccolo is messy too. Piccolo acts like he could’ve blocked or deflected it and only jumped bc he expected a strong blast.

Kyo said:

Vegeta's blast against Recoom is the more problematic one to work with.

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Yeah, it’s hard to imagine it being significantly stronger than Reecome. Maybe he isn’t using his max amp here but it sure seems like he has no other option don’t it?

Power Level Guy said:

Well Piccolo is outright dismissing the validity of the attack in its current state. Like Cell’s Kamehameha isn’t a real threat to Piccolo whereas a regular Kamehameha would be.

As I said, we have proof that Goku’s Kamehameha against Raditz was a legit threat.

It’s not about Piccolo out amplifying him, Piccolo was about to be shook of a real Kamehameha which should threaten him, but this did not really threaten him.

Check this out.

Cell 180
Kamehameha 200
Piccolo 220
Expected Kamehameha 270

A 270 Kamehameha could legit threaten Piccolo, where he’s actually in real trouble. And then this pitiful little thing ends up being nothing.

Click to expand...

I can't fault your logic here, but I still think there's more to this. Piccolo's own blast against Cell was strong enough to be felt halfway across the planet where the Androids were, and yet his attack barely did anything to Cell. It lends credence to the idea that defenses can be amplified, meaning it's not always as straight forward as the attack being stronger than someone's base level = huge damage.

SSJ2 said:

I can't fault your logic here, but I still think there's more to this. Piccolo's own blast against Cell was strong enough to be felt halfway across the planet where the Androids were, and yet his attack barely did anything to Cell. It lends credence to the idea that defenses can be amplified, meaning it's not always as straight forward as the attack being stronger than someone's base level = huge damage.

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Hmm good point. The way we are speaking it’s as if Cell should have died.

Raditz hits Goku with a blast after the Kamehameha and he looks pissed and intent on killing Goku.

It just might be that damage from Ki blasts is totally plot dependent and there’s not as much consistency to it as we think.

It’s always hard to try to figure these things out.

Piccolo hits him with the patented Moon Buster attack, right?

I think we need a database of all of the ki blasts and their effects to better analyze all of this. We are still missing a huge piece I feel.

SSJ2 said:

It lends credence to the idea that defenses can be amplified, meaning it's not always as straight forward as the attack being stronger than someone's base level = huge damage.

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DBZ really was proto-HxH
Togashi is a hack

Power Level Guy said:

Hmm good point. The way we are speaking it’s as if Cell should have died.

Raditz hits Goku with a blast after the Kamehameha and he looks pissed and intent on killing Goku.

It just might be that damage from Ki blasts is totally plot dependent and there’s not as much consistency to it as we think.

It’s always hard to try to figure these things out.

Piccolo hits him with the patented Moon Buster attack, right?

I think we need a database of all of the ki blasts and their effects to better analyze all of this. We are still missing a huge piece I feel.

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I think there's a certain amount of consistency, but there are also a ton of outliers that require other explanations.

I think Piccolo's attack was different than the moon busting attack.



It looks like a powered up version of it.

SSJ2 said:

I think there's a certain amount of consistency, but there are also a ton of outliers that require other explanations.

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Well there are lots of variables to consider. I'm not going to discount inconsistent things existing, but like, why not make things consistent if you can? Before we throw out the term "inconsistent", maybe we just try to make it work first?

SSJ2 said:

I think Piccolo's attack was different than the moon busting attack.

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I think they are probably all the same. This is Piccolo's quick-fire, no-amp attack.

Cell walks away from it just fine.

Final Crash > Reecome by the same amount this attack is over Cell more or less.

If a blast is a bit stronger than you, it might not do substantial damage.

Cell takes no damage from this attack.


It's the same attack he does on Raditz too.

This is a consistent attack Piccolo uses. Surely, it has a name?

It's the same attack that Piccolo Daimao uses, the Bakurikimaha. Really doubt it's unamped when it was one of Piccolo Daimao's top attacks.

SSJ2 said:

It's the same attack that Piccolo Daimao uses, the Bakurikimaha. Really doubt it's unamped when it was one of Piccolo Daimao's top attacks.

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Well, why would it be amped? If it wasn't amped against Raditz, why would it ever be amped? It's Piccolo's quick strike attack, that's the purpose of it.

It's definitely amped. Goku couldn't take it head on despite being at equal powers, and it made him resort to wanting to use the Super Kamehameha right after it. This is without a doubt an amplified attack.

SSJ2 said:

It's definitely amped. Goku couldn't take it head on despite being at equal powers, and it made him resort to wanting to use the Super Kamehameha right after it. This is without a doubt an amplified attack.

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It’s the same attack?

I’m talking about the one handed attack he does

That's pretty much Piccolo's go to attack.



The one against Raditz was two handed. They are all the same attack whether it's one or two hands.

SSJ2 said:

The one against Raditz was two handed. They are all the same attack whether it's one or two hands.

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The one against Raditz is unamped.