22nd Budokai-Freeza arc is flawless

[Future Warrior]

Starting from the 22nd Budokai all the way to the end of the Freeza arc is the absolute best duration of the series, agreed?

 

[SSJ2]

100%. It's hard to think of any major flaws in this section.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

As a whole, I'd probably agree. I definitely wouldn't say it's flawless (the only arc of the series I'd confidently say is would be the Hunt for the Dragon Balls/Pilaf Arc), but it's definitely the most consistent era of quality for the series. I would argue that the Cell and Boo Arcs do have some high-points to rival these arcs such as Vegeta's character arc and some elements of both the climactic fight with Boo and the manga's ending, though there's obviously too many plot holes with both arcs to have them live up to the same standard as a whole.

 

[Tapion]

I think the Cell Arc is the best arc in Z.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don’t think I can ever let go of how quick Tenshinhan’s turn was, and other stuff that definitely makes it imperfect. Those Arcs definitely are the peak of Dragon Ball though.

 

[Future Warrior]

I think the Cell Arc is the best arc in Z.

Cell arc was pretty dope.

I don’t think I can ever let go of how quick Tenshinhan’s turn was, and other stuff that definitely makes it imperfect.

What are you referring to?

As a whole, I'd probably agree. I definitely wouldn't say it's flawless (the only arc of the series I'd confidently say is would be the Hunt for the Dragon Balls/Pilaf Arc), but it's definitely the most consistent era of quality for the series.

I think you put the Pilaf arc a bit too high of a standard. It's a pretty good introduction to the series and the epitome of the adventurous aspect of DB, but it doesn't hold a candle anything that comes out later on.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I think you put the Pilaf arc a bit too high of a standard. It's a pretty good introduction to the series and the epitome of the adventurous aspect of DB, but it doesn't hold a candle anything that comes out later on.

Not when it comes to a grandiose nature or character complexity, I'd agree (even though some character details within it are fairly underrated), though there's no issues I can really find in its execution, whereas the other arcs still have some major or minor problems to them.

 

[Future Warrior]

Not when it comes to a grandiose nature or character complexity, I'd agree (even though some character details within it are fairly underrated), though there's no issues I can really find in its execution, whereas the other arcs still have some major or minor problems to them.

So you find more enjoyment reading the Pilaf arc than the Cell arc?

 

[SSJ2]

I don’t think I can ever let go of how quick Tenshinhan’s turn was, and other stuff that definitely makes it imperfect.

What are you referring to?

I assume he's referring to how quickly Tenshinhan was converted from a villain to a "good guy".

 

[Captain Cadaver]

So you find more enjoyment reading the Pilaf arc than the Cell arc?

Enjoyment, no. Less issues in its writing quality, yes.

 

[Warmmedown]

I'd extend it until up to (but maybe not including) Piccolo vs 17 and maybe as far back as the 21st Budokai.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What are you referring to?

Anything bad CC has to say about any of these arcs

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Anything bad CC has to say about any of these arcs

You think I'm going to fall for that bait?

...

Spoiler

22nd Tenkaichi Budokai - It has some minor problems if we're speaking purely of the manga, such as most of the support cast getting written out of the plot as soon as Yamcha is defeated and Tenshinhan's turn being a tad rushed (though I wouldn't say it's as rushed as some might say).

Piccolo Daimao Arc - I'm okay with the Choshinsui when considering the requirements for enduring it (perfectly refined mind, body and spirit) and the cap of it makes it apparent why it wasn't used as an instant boost for everyone, though I can understand the issue many have with Karin just having the real stuff tucked away in the manga and how this can be seen as going against the message of his training. Also, Tenshinhan coming to the fight with a broken jar was just really dumb. If we're referring to just the manga here, there were also some missed opportunities when it came to Daimao's rule, though the anime thankfully fixed them.

23rd Tenkaichi Budokai - It seems pretty hard to swallow that guys comparable or stronger than Daimao would be shocked at Goku walking around fine in a total of 100kg when wearing 20% of that each day was a necessary part of his training with Roshi. Tao Pai Pai's survival was also a bit contrived (though at least not impossible) and he was pretty disrespected for a character that had one of the most badass introductions in the franchise. Kami's character arc was perhaps the biggest issue with it as it really doesn't seem like it should've took him so long to become resolved in killing Piccolo all things considered. For someone meant to protect humanity from a threat he created, he does a pretty bad job at it with how it comes off as him just chickening out of doing the deed himself. This would be fine if presenting him as indeed being a flawed and slightly selfish God which the finale and his interaction with Enma in the Saiyan Arc somewhat point to, though that does make him reflecting on the damage he's done to humanity feel a tad disingenuous.

Saiyan Arc - There are some minor problems in the Raditz fight. I can accept him not removing his tail during the grab despite what Goku says later under the assumption Galu was referring to it being pulled out like during the fight with Grandpa Gohan, though him not flying to avoid the Makankosappo is very questionable (unless assuming he was that disorientated).

Freeza Arc - Not sure whether or not to count this with the Saiyan Arc or not due to how different pieces of media like to attach it to different arcs, but Popo not using his carpet to get Goku to the battlefield against Nappa is a noticeable plot hole. The Ginyu Tokusentai, even though I like their gimmick, were also kind of unnecessary in the grand scheme of things (though at least Ginyu served a purpose beyond being a benchmark). Freeza's 2nd and 3rd forms (the latter in particular), meanwhile, were filler that served little purpose beyond giving the other characters some temporary shine that overall ended up being pointless. The information revealed about Vegeta being a child at the time of his planet's destruction also goes against Raditz's exposition that one of the survivors (ie. Vegeta) was an infant sent to another world like Kakarrot. The Grand Elder's potential unlocking also becomes a cheap power up later on. Its initial usage as the reward for an arduous journey was fine, but it gradually elevating Gohan and Kuririn to the point they can help out against Freeza does feel a bit too convenient (especially with how limited Nail's was if assuming he went through it). Goku being able to just jump into a telepathic communication at the end of the arc is also very questionable when his telepathic skills when arriving on Namek seemed to be less than Roshi's and it's not as if Kaio's communications are meant to be some open channel (unless Fatass Guru wanted Galu to get on God Skype...XD).

I'd still definitely say the good outweighs the bad for each arc, but I couldn't honestly call them flawless (though the 22nd TB and Saiyan Arc do come close).

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Raditz says hi.

 

[Future Warrior]

So you find more enjoyment reading the Pilaf arc than the Cell arc?

Enjoyment, no. Less issues in its writing quality, yes.

If you enjoy the Cell arc more, than that's pretty much the same as admitting that it's better, no?

I mean, I get the argument that you can like something while still admitting that it's bad, but if it's giving you more entertainment than something on the premise that it has less ''plot holes'' (the plot holes aren't even that damaging tbh), then clearly it's doing it's job right

Also, I was about to lay on CC after reading that criticism post he just made, but I'd rather control my inner demon before the damage starts. No one wants to see me in that state, I assure you.

FYI, the end of the Freeza arc is top tier DB material.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

If you enjoy the Cell arc more, than that's pretty much the same as admitting that it's better, no?

I mean, I get the argument that you can like something while still admitting that it's bad, but if it's giving you more entertainment than something that has less ''holes'' in in it, then clearly it's doing it's job right

The former part is more in line with what I'd believe. Subjectively, I enjoy the Cell Arc more, but objectively, I'd see the Pilaf Arc as the far more solid work. Enjoyment is more of a personal thing that can't really be quantified, whereas the quality of a work can be compared and contrasted to break down which is better in several aspects. I can say though that the Cell Arc is better in some areas (character complexity, for one), but has far too many issues for me to cite it as better than a whole (messy time travel, aspects of the world's attitude to fighters Post-23rd TB, etc.).

Also, I was about to lay on CC after reading that criticism post he just made, but I'd rather control my inner demon before the damage starts. No one wants to see me in that state, I assure you.

By all means, do. If you've got some good defences for the points I brought up that can help change my mind, I'd definitely like to hear them.

FYI, the end of the Freeza arc is top tier DB material.

Only one issue with that statement....

Spoiler

FYI, the end of the Freeza arc is God tier DB material.

Fixed.

 

[SSJ2]

 

[Future Warrior]

I get that the premise of the argument is that the Cell arc has more inconsistent ''logic'', and that's it's a less refined piece of work than the Pilaf arc. You could say it's technically true, given how Toriyama was already burned out from drawing weekly at this point, and it would be understandable that there would be some gaps in logic if one would analyse in detail further.

In my opinion, the plot holes in the Cell arc aren't that big of a deal if you ask me. For example, the year that Cell specifies that he came from (or went to? Idk) is in contradiction to what we've already known from the story prior. But I argue that if it doesn't take away from the larger narrative that the story was trying to tell, than it doesn't lose that many points regarding the quality of the work. The narrative doesn't try to put a lot of emphases into Cell's backstory after this point, and all it amounted to was just an info dump to explain this weird bug creature. The backstory doesn't really get mentioned at all after this point (if it did, then not to any notable degree), because the plot revolved mostly around how Goku and company would take down the big bad bug man. A simple fix of that line would just amount to a change of a number, that's it.

Now, there are definitely issues that I have with the Cell arc. For one, I feel Kuririn's crush on #18 felt very unnatural, forced, and childish. He pretty much sacrificed the earth because a girl that just demolished his whole squad gave him a peck on the cheek and became horny as fuck. He has no reason to believe she wasn't a threat. That was stupid.

But underneath all of that, the arc as a whole has a lot of substance. It had people who watched it for the first time on the edge of their seats when their protagonist didn't have a way to victory. Seeing a villain like Vegeta cooperating with the heroes, while does his evil antics that put the group in jeopardy was something not many people had seen prior. The changes in character arcs such as Piccolo's unification with Kami, Vegeta trying to avenge Trunks and even apologizing to Gohan, and Gohan killing Cell were moments everyone will admit are fantastic. The constant dread of Cell seeking the androids to absorb, and how the gang were trying to prevent that from happening.

Meanwhile, the Pilaf is simply just... an adventure story. It's a good one, sure, but what it lacks is substance. Not nearly as much as the Freeza and Cell arcs. The Pilaf arc had a clear beginning to end. They started on a journey to find the DB's, and that's what ended up happening (albeit, they didn't gain their wish). If you were to judge entertainment based on what contradicts something, than you may as well say a goddamn Dora the Explorer episode is better than anything from DB because it did it's job perfectly in what it wanted to tell, which is to teach kids spanish.

Imo, the Cell arc gives you more entertainment because it tells a far better story than what the Pilaf arc had to offer.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

For example, the year that Cell specifies that he came from (or went to? Idk) is in contradiction to what we've already known from the story prior. But I argue that if it doesn't take away from the larger narrative that the story was trying to tell, than it doesn't lose that many points regarding the quality of the work. The narrative doesn't try to put a lot of emphases into Cell's backstory after this point, and all it amounted to was just an info dump to explain this weird bug creature. The backstory doesn't really get mentioned at all after this point (if it did, then not to any notable degree), because the plot revolved mostly around how Goku and company would take down the big bad bug man. A simple fix of that line would just amount to a change of a number, that's it.

The thing is, as simple of a fix it can be, this plot hole is still a pretty major one when it brings up why Trunks would travel so far back in time, which is a pretty big deal with how much of a focal point time travel is for the arc as a whole. The bigger issue with Cell's backstory is less the date and more so the explanation that the Spy Robot didn't need Trunks' cells when he confronted Freeza and Cold, which makes little sense with what we know of Cell's timeline, unless this was some circular timeline in which another Trunks came back in time but his involvement was somehow futile for...reasons. These unexplained aspects of the time travel are perhaps the most notable flaw of the arc with how it's just used as a copout for complete changes rather than having a linear butterfly effect to explain why they changed so rapidly, again something that can't be overlooked with how big of a role time travel plays in the plot.

Now, there are definitely issues that I have with the Cell arc. For one, I feel Kuririn's crush on #18 felt very unnatural, forced, and childish. He pretty much sacrificed the earth because a girl that just demolished his whole squad gave him a peck on the cheek and became horny as fuck. He has no reason to believe she wasn't a threat. That was stupid.

This is one I'd actually defend. We have to remember Kuririn has been wanting a woman ever since his introduction and has felt a lot of jealousy when it comes to his friends' success with women. As little as what #18 gave him was, that was still more than he'd received as of yet, so going full simp doesn't seem too out of character for him. That, and some aspects of #17 and #18 such as only having the intent to kill Goku made it apparent they were far different from their future selves.

But underneath all of that, the arc as a whole has a lot of substance. It had people who watched it for the first time on the edge of their seats when their protagonist didn't have a way to victory. Seeing a villain like Vegeta cooperating with the heroes, while does his evil antics that put the group in jeopardy was something not many people had seen prior.

These elements had been done to some extent prior though. You can say this was the case for many as the Cell Arc was the first major part of the series many fans saw (including myself having first watched the anime consistently at the end of the Freeza Arc), yet that's a fan's personal experience from it, something fairly different when having watched/read the series from the start.

Meanwhile, the Pilaf is simply just... an adventure story. It's a good one, sure, but what it lacks is substance. Not nearly as much as the Freeza and Cell arcs. The Pilaf arc had a clear beginning to end. They started on a journey to find the DB's, and that's what ended up happening (albeit, they didn't gain their wish). If you were to judge entertainment based on what contradicts something, than you may as well say a goddamn Dora the Explorer episode is better than anything from DB because it did it's job perfectly in what it wanted to tell, which is to teach kids spanish.

I don't think you're giving the Pilaf Arc enough credit here. Sure, it doesn't try as grand ideas as the Cell Arc, but it's still more than a simple adventure story when judging how it works compared to the rest of the series and other manga at the time. It's interesting when viewed as a cynical take on the traditional Asian adventure tale, with most of the cast being selfish, flawed people rather than idealistic heroes (something that definitely shows when comparing it to its equivalent in GT), each of whom have a clear catharsis by the end and there is a good contrast with how those higher on the "villain" scale seem to be less selfish than the main cast (compare Yamcha's bond with Pu-erh or the loyalty Shu and Mai have for Pilaf with how willing Bulma or Oolong would be to betray all those around them). Of course, there's also all of the main gang playing a role in overcoming the final threat, something that wouldn't be repeated in later arcs in which at least one of the main characters would be shafted in the climax. I'd still agree with you that all the arcs of Z have more substance to them (you can even compare and contrast how the Cell Arc handles its flawed cast and the wildcard that was Vegeta, particularly with how one leans into the eastern elements of Wuxia whereas one adds a western flavour), but I wouldn't say what the Pilaf Arc does is falling behind in substance to the extent the problems of the Cell Arc are still minimal enough to solidly stand above it.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]