22nd Budokai-Freeza arc is flawless

[GSM123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

Ironically, that wasn’t even a bait. Just a nod to the good old “review every arc” thread. Always good to see a solid critique of the series though

 

[Future Warrior]

The thing is, as simple of a fix it can be, this plot hole is still a pretty major one when it brings up why Trunks would travel so far back in time, which is a pretty big deal with how much of a focal point time travel is for the arc as a whole. The bigger issue with Cell's backstory is less the date and more so the explanation that the Spy Robot didn't need Trunks' cells when he confronted Freeza and Cold, which makes little sense with what we know of Cell's timeline, unless this was some circular timeline in which another Trunks came back in time but his involvement was somehow futile for...reasons. These unexplained aspects of the time travel are perhaps the most notable flaw of the arc with how it's just used as a copout for complete changes rather than having a linear butterfly effect to explain why they changed so rapidly, again something that can't be overlooked with how big of a role time travel plays in the plot.

Well like I said, Cell's backstory isn't given a major focus in the story at any point later on. To what extent do you believe time travel plays a huge role? It serves as a backround for a lot of characters, but the main conflict arises at the main timeline.

I think we have different standards when it comes to evaluating media. Maybe Trunks' involvement in Cell's timeline doesn't go in line with previous lines of logic, but why should it matter to me? I don't read the series to dissect the different timelines. If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't do it in a childrens manga made by gag artist Toriyama of all people. All it amounted to was inconsequential dialogue, because that Trunks that Cell mentions doesn't play a role in the story at all. It doesn't take away from the narrative.

It's pretty much just one or two lines that don't make sense out of a whole arc of utter badassary.

This is one I'd actually defend. We have to remember Kuririn has been wanting a woman ever since his introduction and has felt a lot of jealousy when it comes to his friends' success with women. As little as what #18 gave him was, that was still more than he'd received as of yet, so going full simp doesn't seem too out of character for him. That, and some aspects of #17 and #18 such as only having the intent to kill Goku made it apparent they were far different from their future selves.

Agree to disagree. I'm not saying he can't be horny, but a kiss on the cheek shouldn't be the decisive moment that makes him trust them. They may have only wanted to kill Goku, but that's his best friend right there.

These elements had been done to some extent prior though. You can say this was the case for many as the Cell Arc was the first major part of the series many fans saw (including myself having first watched the anime consistently at the end of the Freeza Arc), yet that's a fan's personal experience from it, something fairly different when having watched/read the series from the start.

If your talking about the Freeza arc, that's a pretty different scenario imo. Both of them had a common enemy at that point, and it was clear Vegeta was gonna end up killing Gohan and co. if their goal had been accomplished. I think it's far different from the Cell arc where we see him on earth.

I don't think you're giving the Pilaf Arc enough credit here. Sure, it doesn't try as grand ideas as the Cell Arc, but it's still more than a simple adventure story when judging how it works compared to the rest of the series and other manga at the time. It's interesting when viewed as a cynical take on the traditional Asian adventure tale, with most of the cast being selfish, flawed people rather than idealistic heroes (something that definitely shows when comparing it to its equivalent in GT), each of whom have a clear catharsis by the end and there is a good contrast with how those higher on the "villain" scale seem to be less selfish than the main cast (compare Yamcha's bond with Pu-erh or the loyalty Shu and Mai have for Pilaf with how willing Bulma or Oolong would be to betray all those around them). Of course, there's also all of the main gang playing a role in overcoming the final threat, something that wouldn't be repeated in later arcs in which at least one of the main characters would be shafted in the climax. I'd still agree with you that all the arcs of Z have more substance to them (you can even compare and contrast how the Cell Arc handles its flawed cast and the wildcard that was Vegeta, particularly with how one leans into the eastern elements of Wuxia whereas one adds a western flavour), but I wouldn't say what the Pilaf Arc does is falling behind in substance to the extent the problems of the Cell Arc are still minimal enough to solidly stand above it.

All of this is pretty basic stuff when compared to the later arcs. I've said before that being complex doesn't mean it's better than being simple, but the Pilaf arc is so basic that there's pretty much no room for there to be any flaws in it's story. It's probably more suited to Toriyama's taste than to create a more drawn out serious story to be quite honest. Considering Toriyama never took his own work that seriously at the end of the day I shouldn't do it either. Shows like Breaking Bad or with complicated and mature themes probably deserves that kind of attention more from me. At the very least the Saiyan-Freeza arcs pretty legit themes in it's characterization of Goku where it's impossible to say that the Pilaf arc comes close to any of that stuff.

It's pretty similar to the whole powerscaling and power level culture surrounding this series, where I just go ''why are you wasting so much time discussing this shit?''

 

[DBZAOTA482]

The only flaw I can think of is most of the human characters get shafted by Z and the power scaling in the Namek / Freeza arcs is very inflated.

Otherwise, the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai - Freeza arcs are the pinnacle of shonen greatness.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

To what extent do you believe time travel plays a huge role? It serves as a backround for a lot of characters, but the main conflict arises at the main timeline.

Trunks going back in time is the catalyst to events in the entire arc, including the changes to the timeline that drastically change the plot (present twins being stronger, #19 and #20 showing, Cell's entire source for being there) which are overall just handwaved away with the cheap explanation of "because time travel".

I think we have different standards when it comes to evaluating media. Maybe Trunks' involvement in Cell's timeline doesn't go in line with previous lines of logic, but why should it matter to me? I don't read the series to dissect the different timelines. If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't do it in a childrens manga made by gag artist Toriyama of all people.

I wouldn't want to read the series to dissect the timelines either, but not having coherent logic in a notable aspect of the arc is a major flaw regardless of one's intent in reading the series. I wouldn't say the target demographic would alleviate this either when plenty of other Shonen such as Fullmetal Alchemist or Ashita no Joe (both of which were accessible to the same target audience despite their more mature approaches) were able to go throughout their entire run without any major hiccups. It being made by a gag mangaka, likewise, can't be used as a shield when, as you said, the story of the Cell Arc took itself far more seriously with more mature themes and tone than any of Part 1's comedic arcs.

All it amounted to was inconsequential dialogue, because that Trunks that Cell mentions doesn't play a role in the story at all. It doesn't take away from the narrative.
It's pretty much just one or two lines that don't make sense out of a whole arc of utter badassary.

I can agree with this to some extent. I wouldn't say Cell's backstory damages the arc that much. As I said, things like #19 and #20's existence are far more relevant than the problems with Cell showing up, and I wouldn't say it outweighs the good aspects of the arc. However, it's far from the only major flaw of the arc when the Rosat never being used in place of the 3 year training is a far bigger issue, and there are some issues involving Goku's rationale when it comes to remaining dead, considering all the bad guys he apparently "attracted" to him with the debatable exceptions of Mecha Freeza and Raditz would have otherwise remained unopposed if not for him, not to mention being a direct opposition to Kuririn's line about Goku turning so many former enemies into allies.

Agree to disagree. I'm not saying he can't be horny, but a kiss on the cheek shouldn't be the decisive moment that makes him trust them. They may have only wanted to kill Goku, but that's his best friend right there.

To be fair, Kuririn only solidly made a decision when having the opportunity to deactivate #18. Until then, most of his thoughts on her were presented more as doubt in Trunks' opinion than an outright 180. By the time he made the decision, her desire to kill Goku was pretty much a non-issue with how much Vegeta and Trunks had surpassed her, with Goku doing the same being definite to anyone who knew him.

If your talking about the Freeza arc, that's a pretty different scenario imo. Both of them had a common enemy at that point, and it was clear Vegeta was gonna end up killing Gohan and co. if their goal had been accomplished. I think it's far different from the Cell arc where we see him on earth.

Your wording of it though was:

Seeing a villain like Vegeta cooperating with the heroes, while does his evil antics that put the group in jeopardy was something not many people had seen prior.

This is, at its core, something that had been done in the Freeza Arc, hence why I brought it up. I fully agree that the aspects of it were different though, such as exploring what would happen to a villain turned ally who hadn't gone through a redemption arc and how others would realistically view his presence.

All of this is pretty basic stuff when compared to the later arcs. I've said before that being complex doesn't mean it's better than being simple, but the Pilaf arc is so basic that there's pretty much no room for there to be any flaws in it's story. It's probably more suited to Toriyama's taste than to create a more drawn out serious story to be quite honest. Considering Toriyama never took his own work that seriously at the end of the day I shouldn't do it either.

Yet, if a comedic arc is indeed more to Toriyama's taste and talents; reflecting what he wanted to do most (make a fun story for boys/young teens), we should see it as being a great success as it perfectly captured the artist's intent with the art. Meanwhile, the Cell Arc had Toriyama clearly intent on making a serious story with time travel as a focal point and, thus, should be taking seriously when assessing it.

It's pretty similar to the whole powerscaling and power level culture surrounding this series, where I just go ''why are you wasting so much time discussing this shit?''

I wouldn't say they're really that comparable, at least note power level culture. Battle powers were never presented as having some golden mathematical or scientific law when it came to correlation beyond Kaioken and some characters having naturally great durability like Goku and Vegeta make dissecting things such as tanking feats ultimately flawed from the start. Power-scaling can be seen as a more legitimate point of comparison when the story's majority is told or progressed through battles, though there's so few within the original manga that it isn't really a major issue (unless getting obsessed things like Tao Pai Pai's relevance in the 22nd TB or the Babidi's spaceship powerscaling; both of which have simple explanations in Tao's skill and Babidi's inexperience with gaining great amounts of energy for Boo before respectively). A story that takes itself seriously enough to present dark scenarios and genuine character drama being judged in how effectively it sticks to its in-universe logic and/or rules (or, in the case of the time travel, how well defined those rules are), however, definitely isn't irrelevant in determining its overall quality regardless of the genre, demographic or medium. If a story takes itself seriously enough to present rules in its mechanics yet offers vague to messy rules in its time travel or baffling moments such as the Rosat contrivance, then that's a surefire way to break immersion regardless of what a person is watching the series for.

At the very least the Saiyan-Freeza arcs pretty legit themes in it's characterization of Goku where it's impossible to say that the Pilaf arc comes close to any of that stuff.

I can agree to this. That said, despite my disagreements with your comparisons at several points, you do bring up a strong argument for the Cell Arc's quality .

Still waiting for a counter to the flaws I mentioned for the other arcs though

 

[Future Warrior]

I can't really agree with you on your points, so we'll just leave it at that. If I feel up to it I'll try to have a discussion on your other post regarding the arcs at some point.

 

[Future Warrior]

22nd Tenkaichi Budokai - It has some minor problems if we're speaking purely of the manga, such as most of the support cast getting written out of the plot as soon as Yamcha is defeated and Tenshinhan's turn being a tad rushed (though I wouldn't say it's as rushed as some might say).

I'm not really sure what you mean when you say they were written out of the plot. Can you elaborate?

I don't think Tenshinhan's turn was as rushed as most people say, so we probably share the same opinion.

Piccolo Daimao Arc - I'm okay with the Choshinsui when considering the requirements for enduring it (perfectly refined mind, body and spirit) and the cap of it makes it apparent why it wasn't used as an instant boost for everyone, though I can understand the issue many have with Karin just having the real stuff tucked away in the manga and how this can be seen as going against the message of his training. Also, Tenshinhan coming to the fight with a broken jar was just really dumb. If we're referring to just the manga here, there were also some missed opportunities when it came to Daimao's rule, though the anime thankfully fixed them

I think I mostly agree with your points here. I think the anime improved on this greatly.

23rd Tenkaichi Budokai - Tao Pai Pai's survival was also a bit contrived (though at least not impossible) and he was pretty disrespected for a character that had one of the most badass introductions in the franchise. Kami's character arc was perhaps the biggest issue with it as it really doesn't seem like it should've took him so long to become resolved in killing Piccolo all things considered. For someone meant to protect humanity from a threat he created, he does a pretty bad job at it with how it comes off as him just chickening out of doing the deed himself. This would be fine if presenting him as indeed being a flawed and slightly selfish God which the finale and his interaction with Enma in the Saiyan Arc somewhat point to, though that does make him reflecting on the damage he's done to humanity feel a tad disingenuous.

Oof. Don't agree with your opinion on Tao's return at all. Personally that fight is one of the reasons why I liked this arc for the most part, and probably one of the highlights for the series for me. Seeing Tenshinhan confronting his past and completely humiliating Tao was good development for his character as it represented him overcoming the Crane Schools philosophies in favor of the bonds that he earned with his friends.

The scar that Tao carved on his chest serves as a permanent reminder of his regretful past.

Freeza Arc - Not sure whether or not to count this with the Saiyan Arc or not due to how different pieces of media like to attach it to different arcs, but Popo not using his carpet to get Goku to the battlefield against Nappa is a noticeable plot hole. The Ginyu Tokusentai, even though I like their gimmick, were also kind of unnecessary in the grand scheme of things (though at least Ginyu served a purpose beyond being a benchmark). Freeza's 2nd and 3rd forms (the latter in particular), meanwhile, were filler that served little purpose beyond giving the other characters some temporary shine that overall ended up being pointless. The information revealed about Vegeta being a child at the time of his planet's destruction also goes against Raditz's exposition that one of the survivors (ie. Vegeta) was an infant sent to another world like Kakarrot. The Grand Elder's potential unlocking also becomes a cheap power up later on. Its initial usage as the reward for an arduous journey was fine, but it gradually elevating Gohan and Kuririn to the point they can help out against Freeza does feel a bit too convenient (especially with how limited Nail's was if assuming he went through it). Goku being able to just jump into a telepathic communication at the end of the arc is also very questionable when his telepathic skills when arriving on Namek seemed to be less than Roshi's and it's not as if Kaio's communications are meant to be some open channel (unless Fatass Guru wanted Galu to get on God Skype...XD).

I think the Ginyu Squad simply added even more tension to the heroes and in turn solidified Freeza as this being that is so far above anybody they faced before. Zarbon and Dodoria couldn't really play this role because they were swiftly defeated by Vegeta. The fact that Vegeta couldn't stand a chance against a simple subordinate of Freeza speaks volumes on what kind of person they were up against, which gives the person watching/reading doubts on the heroes chances of victory. Plus, they were pretty unique and comedic which gives the arc another layer that was already filled with the brim with grimness.

As for Freeza's transformations, I might agree that 3rd form Freeza was probably going a bit too far, but 2nd form deserves a place to stay. The point of final form Freeza's design was the irony in being the most powerful yet tiniest. Going from his first form to final form wouldn't go in line with that since they both look pretty small. Plus, 2nd form Freeza's design looks like a giant demon which may as well be what he is, and it's cool as fuck. If I would give one reason for its inclusions, is that it truly made Freeza seem like a being that is essentially limitless in power, and despite the groups best efforts they could never make him fold.

Goku was already capable of telepathically communicating with Gohan and co. back in the Saiyan arc, and considering he's been associated with Kaio for quite some time, I've never really doubted him being capable of that.

As a side note, don't take my wording of ''flawless'' literally. Just that I believe that this duration of the series highlights the best aspects of it the best. Obviously I feel like there are a couple of things here and there that I feel would have been done a bit better.

 

[Warmmedown]

Realistically Tenshinhan should be way more distraught about his long-time master being immoral and also betraying him and Chazou. Not even close to realistic. But for a 90s battle series it's not so big a deal.

 

[SIAD]

I really think there was no Future Trunks on the Cell Line.

The same Cell that traveled to the Present, was impressed that Vegeta was still alive and how powerful he had become. Chances are that Cell saw in his Timeline how the Z Warriors had been killed.

It could be argued that the Trunks that killed Frieza in Cell's history is due to the following options:

1.- Cell at the moment of returning to the Embryonic state, re-created that spy bug. That Frieza and that Trunks of the Future that we see, are those of The Main Timeline.

2.- Maybe when Cell talks about not collecting the cells of a Warrior called Trunks, he was referring to the Trunks of his Timeline when he fought against the Androids of the Cell Line and not when Frieza and King Cold died.

3.- It was simply an AT error when showing a Trunks of the Future killing Frieza and King Cold. I didn't think about what I was doing.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'm not really sure what you mean when you say they were written out of the plot. Can you elaborate?

Pu-erh, Bulma and Lunch immediately leave upon Yamcha's defeat, not showing up again until the end of the arc. This severely wastes the potential that could be found in interactions, something that makes Lunch admitting her feelings for Ten at the end of the arc come without really any build-up. The anime definitely improved upon this and made this a non-issue, though the manga version has some wasted potential.

Oof. Don't agree with your opinion on Tao's return at all. Personally that fight is one of the reasons why I liked this arc for the most part, and probably one of the highlights for the series for me. Seeing Tenshinhan confronting his past and completely humiliating Tao was good development for his character as it represented him overcoming the Crane Schools philosophies in favor of the bonds that he earned with his friends.

The scar that Tao carved on his chest serves as a permanent reminder of his regretful past.

Yeah, I agree that it was beneficial for Tenshinhan, though it did come at the expense of making Tao Pai Pai look pretty pathetic, which is a fair bit disappointing for someone hailed as the world's greatest assassin not long ago and after a power up.

I think the Ginyu Squad simply added even more tension to the heroes and in turn solidified Freeza as this being that is so far above anybody they faced before. Zarbon and Dodoria couldn't really play this role because they were swiftly defeated by Vegeta. The fact that Vegeta couldn't stand a chance against a simple subordinate of Freeza speaks volumes on what kind of person they were up against, which gives the person watching/reading doubts on the heroes chances of victory.

I can agree with that in premise, though the power inflation they and Freeza's 530k reveal really does make power creep apparent in the arc more so than any other in the series' original run. It really shows in instances such as Kuririn and Gohan not finding a guy equal to Base Zarbon that tough only hours after he was an overwhelming threat because of the potential unlocking's constant buffs up until the fight with Freeza, or Namekian fusion (which I forgot to mention prior) to give Piccolo an instant boost to relevancy and bring up the question of why didn't any of the Namekians attempt this prior when they can sense Ki, sense how great Freeza's is and had enough time for at least one village to try this last resort.

Plus, they were pretty unique and comedic which gives the arc another layer that was already filled with the brim with grimness.

As a group, I can agree. As individuals though, I'd say that's more arguable. Ginyu and Gurd stand out as individuals, though the other 3 are pretty interchangeable beyond their gimmicks of Reacoom = tanky, Butta = gotta go faaast and Jheese = uh...well balanced? They definitely have better characterisation in the anime though.

As for Freeza's transformations, I might agree that 3rd form Freeza was probably going a bit too far, but 2nd form deserves a place to stay. The point of final form Freeza's design was the irony in being the most powerful yet tiniest. Going from his first form to final form wouldn't go in line with that since they both look pretty small. Plus, 2nd form Freeza's design looks like a giant demon which may as well be what he is, and it's cool as fuck. If I would give one reason for its inclusions, is that it truly made Freeza seem like a being that is essentially limitless in power, and despite the groups best efforts they could never make him fold.

Yeah, I don't have too much of a problem with 2nd form Freeza, though the amount of time eaten up by the group fighting him only for their efforts to feel pointless can be disappointing, though perhaps such pointlessness was what Toriyama was going for (though it still does present some wasted potential in Piccolo being sidelined in the arc where he could've gained far more development from fighting on his home planet). I'd also say Cold's existence makes it more relevant by suggesting it was a homage and honouring of "Papa". I'd still stand by 3rd form Freeza being pointless though.

Goku was already capable of telepathically communicating with Gohan and co. back in the Saiyan arc, and considering he's been associated with Kaio for quite some time, I've never really doubted him being capable of that.

I can see the logic behind that. I'd probably say it could've done with more elaboration on his growth in that skill when considering we never see his other students getting the same privilege, though I guess the growth in Goku's other telepathic abilities makes it fine.

 

[Future Warrior]

Yeah, I agree that it was beneficial for Tenshinhan, though it did come at the expense of making Tao Pai Pai look pretty pathetic, which is a fair bit disappointing for someone hailed as the world's greatest assassin not long ago and after a power up.

Do you take the same issue with Freeza then?

 

[theallpowerfulpuipui]

I think the Cell Arc is the best arc in Z.

This was my favorite back when i first watched the series. Upon rewatching it several times it has aged terribly with its sloppy writing, mindless asspulls, and awful filler in the 2nd half. The linear nature of the fights leaves a ton to be desired too. However when it comes to animation, character design, and 'the moments' the Cell arc does hold up.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Do you take the same issue with Freeza then?

Not really. Freeza getting oneshotted by Trunks served a solid purpose in building up the threat of the Artificial Humans. Taopaipai being tooled served some purpose for Tenshinhan's development, but not too much when he'd already abandoned the Crane School at the previous tournament as well as his obsession with being like Tao, making this more of a cherry on top for him than something more substantial for the plot or his character; not to mention it didn't really serve Tenshinhan's character that much for future events beyond the scar (with its significance not really being brought up after that) and Tenshinhan would soon be brought to the sideline after his rematch with Goku.