A new outlook in the androids saga

[ahill1]

Those point were raised by a debater fellow. If you disagree so hard with this, leave in the comments why.


First of all, no one needs to indicate that sick Goku is weaker than his Yardrat or Namek-self in order for it to be the case, since no one has said that he isn't that weak. All that happens is Piccolo making it abundantly clear that Goku is substantially weaker than he is capable of being; a statement which does not exclude him from being weaker than he was whilst on Namek, or when he first returned to Earth. Though it's not any evidence that he is, either.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”

Secondly, it seems most people view Tien's awe of Goku's power to be confirmation that he's above his Yardrat-self even whilst sick, but Tien acts as if it is the first time he's felt the power of a Super Saiyan - full stop. It is because of that that he is in awe, not because he's noticed any improvements.

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”

Clearly he's never experienced Goku as a Super Saiyan before. This second quote shows that he's never before experienced the ki of any Super Saiyan:

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”


The third point I want to make is that Goku and Vegeta would have only made quite modest power gains. We can know this by using Trunks as a measuring stick, as he is the most relevant fighter to and after Goku and Vegeta.

Chapter: 354 (DBZ 160), P4.1
Context: after No.17 knocks out Trunks
Kuririn: “O-one hit..! And he was a Super Saiyan…!”

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.2
Context: after Kuririn apologies for not joining the fight with No.17 and No.18
Piccolo: “Don’t worry about it. Even Trunks as a Super Saiyan was done in with basically one blow. It wouldn’t have made any difference if you had come.”(Note that Piccolo is the one saying this one, indicating his inferiority to the Super Saiyans. This is going to come up again soon.)

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…”

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”

As you can you undoubtedly see, Trunks is still comparable to Goku and Vegeta, and yet he still hasn't grown strong enough to deal with the android problem in his own time - a threat that he could already fight fairly well:

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

If Trunks had hardly improved at all, and yet remains in the same ballpark as Goku and Vegeta, then to suggest the latter two have even near double the power Goku had on Namek is ludicrous. If they were that powerful, then Trunks would have dealt with his own android situation with all the gains that would have been necessary for him to remain so close to the other two.

Next: Piccolo. As already shown when telling Krillin it was okay for him to have stayed out of the fight, Piccolo still reveres the power of the Super Saiyans. The reason most people seem to think Piccolo is at the Super Saiyan level—besides the circular logic that #20 is, therefore Piccolo is, therefore #20 is—is because when Tien says Goku's Super Saiyan power is in a different dimension, Piccolo responds with "I wonder".

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”

However, this is established to be a severely weakened Goku from sickness, and, as I've hopefully demonstrated above, Goku has not grown so strong that his weakened-self absolutely can not be below his Namek-self. So if Piccolo is comparing himself to Goku's power that Tien comments upon, then that doesn't necessarily mean he's comparable to a power truly representative of a Super Saiyan.

Obviously, Piccolo has become impressively strong, as noted by Krillin:

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

This is clearly to say he's very strong, but for someone who isn't even a Super Saiyan. It is in no way directly comparing him to a Super Saiyan. "He's a great boxer, and he's not even a professional" is not the same as saying "he's as good as a professional"; only noting how impressive he is in spite of not being one.

In-fact, the only time he's directly compared to a Super Saiyan is after his fusion with Kami. Very favourably, of course.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P11.5-7
Kuririn: If Goku and the others are Super Saiyans, then Piccolo will be a Super Namekian.”

Chapter: 362 (DBZ 168), P2.1-7
Trunks: “Merged?! You mean he and God…?! I heard they used to be one, but split up.”
Kuririn: “They were! And Piccolo was already incredibly strong, so simply by doing that…Th-this is a Super Namekian!!”
Trunks: “Magnificent. To think that he’d be capable of this much of a power-up...”

Of course, if Piccolo is yet to be as powerful as a Super Saiyan, then #19 and #20 definitely aren't, either. Given how easily Piccolo deals with the stronger of the two. Which brings us to Piccolo wondering whether the androids weren't as strong as they expected, or whether they themselves had just grown too strong.

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

Prior to this, Piccolo was never overly confident in their new powers, nor would he have considered whether he had grown "too strong"—that is to say, far stronger than he realised they had grown—given how seriously he treats the arrival of the androids. This thought of his is only a response to how weak the opposition turned out to be in comparison to what they were told it would be. This seems indirect confirmation to me that the power Trunks warned them about is a power that Piccolo didn't expect himself to be powerful enough for.

I have further reason to believe this, considering Trunks is still impressively more powerful than Piccolo, and Trunks has yet to deal with that power (in his own time) he was warning them about. There is no way that #19 and #20 as strong as the #17 and #18 in Trunks' time, because that would make Piccolo impressively more powerful than Trunks. Which he definitely is not.

Not to mention, them having grown too strong was only one of two possibilities he considers - not the answer to that consideration. The other possibility is that they're not as strong as they feared, and we seemingly get that answer to the question when they're revealed to be completely different androids to the ones Trunks was warning them about. Ergo, these androids are not as strong as the ones Trunks warned them about, because they're not even the androids that Trunks warned them about.

Hypothetically, and free for you to disregard this part, but isn't it also likely that Future #19 and #20 are very weak, too? Future Goku and the others didn't train, and as a result they were no match for the imminent threat. However, it wasn't Future #19 and #20 that killed them, but #17 and #18. Even without the heroes training it would seem Gero required the power of #17 and #18 to get the job done. If they themselves had the power to win, they likely would have done it themselves, like they tried in the present, don't you think?

So, I think that sums up everything on why I don't believe the manga implies Goku is much more powerful than his Namek or Yardrat-self, why Piccolo is at best comparable to a sick Super Saiyan Goku, which is probably weaker than the Super Saiyan on Namek, and why #19 and #20 and therefore even weaker still. More in the area of 50% Mecha Freeza.

Of course, you don't have to agree with me, and I'm not trying to make you, but I do feel that my position is fully justified and well reasoned.

 

[Victorious]

You mean a new outlook on the OLD/ANCIENT/pre 2010s unscrutinous view of the Android saga.

Obviously, Piccolo has become impressively strong, as noted by Krillin:
Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”
This is clearly to say he's very strong, but for someone who isn't even a Super Saiyan. It is in no way directly comparing him to a Super Saiyan. "He's a great boxer, and he's not even a professional" is not the same as saying "he's as good as a professional"; only noting how impressive he is in spite of not being one.

This one is pretty subjective but could easily be interpreted as he's displaying SSJ tier power, but not a Super Saiyan, or even a Saiyan. Basically Krillin IMO is saying "wow, I thought only Super Saiyans could have that type of power, not a Namekian".

chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

Prior to this, Piccolo was never overly confident in their new powers, nor would he have considered whether he had grown "too strong"—that is to say, far stronger than he realised they had grown—given how seriously he treats the arrival of the androids. This thought of his is only a response to how weak the opposition turned out to be in comparison to what they were told it would be. This seems indirect confirmation to me that the power Trunks warned them about is a power that Piccolo didn't expect himself to be powerful enough for.

If we assume just 1 thing..this.

Piccolo is not an idiot

Then it's basically impossible for Piccolo not to be well above SSJ Future Trunks from the Mecha Freeza saga.

If Piccolo was as weak as Freeza or SSJ Namek Goku or whatever, there would have been no "maybe we just got too strong" part. There would be no questioning, no speculation, no nothing. It would simply be "you're just nowhere near as strong as we were expecting". Simple as 2 + 2 = 4. Piccolo thinking he perhaps just got too strong already puts him far beyond SSJ Future Trunks. Impossible any other way. How could he possibly [assuming he has a brain] be as weak or weaker than Freeza is and believe there's a possibility he got too strong?

Not to mention, before the Androids had ever even shown up...He had already said he had confidence in his power going into the fight.

Confidence going into the fight means >> SSJ Future Trunks [mecha Freeza saga]

"perhaps we just got too strong" means >> SSJ Future Trunks [mecha Freeza saga]

There's really no way around this. Also, no matter how strong you view sick Goku, it's pretty easy to realize Piccolo was stronger than him. So at minimum he should be considerably above a sick 3 years trained SSJ Goku.


Androids #19 and #20 are indeed well below Future #17 and Future #18...who should be roughly SSJ Vegeta strength based on how "fairly well" current [Android saga] SSJ Future Trunks can fight them. But I have to put #19 post closer to SSJ Vegeta than Recoome was to suppressed post 100x gravity Goku based on feats. So he's probably around 70% of SSJ Vegeta.

70% of SSJ Vegeta from the Android saga says a lot regarding their powers. #19 is indeed very strong. Wanna know why? Vegeta is the top dog and Alpha of the Z Senshi until Kamiccolo comes around. This is SSJ ANDROID SAGA Vegeta, who is stronger than SSJ Healthy Goku who had trained his ass off for 3 years since his Yardrat level power [which itself was beast]. #19 and #20 are no slouches, they are just not nearly the monsters that Future #17 and #18 were, who could trash early level Super Saiyans at less than half power. Think about that, if Future #17 and Future #18 can trash early level Super Saiyans like two armed SSJ Future Gohan at less than half power. Then wouldnt beings like #19 and #20 post being just a reasonable 60-70% of the Future Androids be able to trash early level Super Saiyans too? Yes they would.

 

[p123]

Goku has been training for save his and his family's life for the last 3 full years man. Even if he is sick, why would he not be able to smash his previous self?

Sick Goku should be able to handle Yardrat Goku with ease.

 

[ahill1]

If Piccolo was as weak as Freeza or SSJ Namek Goku or whatever, there would have been no "maybe we just got too strong" part. There would be no questioning, no speculation, no nothing. It would simply be "you're just nowhere near as strong as we were expecting". Simple as 2 + 2 = 4. Piccolo thinking he perhaps just got too strong already puts him far beyond SSJ Future Trunks. Impossible any other way. How could he possibly [assuming he has a brain] be as weak or weaker than Freeza is and believe there's a possibility he got too strong?

But he still has every reason to believe they're the enemy Trunks was talking about, even if they quite clearly couldn't beat Trunks. Because, after all, they're a pair of violent androids out to kill Goku and co.. Regardless of their power, what else could they be but the things Trunks was warning them of?

So, Piccolo obviously doesn't find to them to be as terrible as expected, but realising they're quite obviously the enemy, he concludes that the future has changed somehow, and that, either himself and the others are stronger than he realises a somewhat ridiculous explanation, I feel or the enemy is weaker than they imagined them to be (Yardrat Gokuish).

We then find out that they're not even the threat Trunks was talking about, thus giving us the answer as to why they were so much weaker than expected, and in what way the future changed. To me, it's quite clear that they fell short of being something capable of beating Future Trunks, and I can comfortably explain Piccolo's willingness to try out #20 for himself being down to how pitiful #19 looked compared to someone of Goku's standing, when Piccolo probably expected that that sort of power is what would have been required of this terrible threat Trunks spoke of.


Also, I want to bring up the limit on their power gains I mentioned earlier, because I find it to be a solid roof, and a more solid foundation than Piccolo contemplating whether he is inexplicably much stronger than he knows himself to be, due to the ease of which he beat someone whose power he can't feel, but understands where it should roughly be.

That is, since Future Gohan must have been at the minimum 50% - 55% of Future 17 being that he was confident that he could take on what must have been 40 - 45% of his power and Trunks should then be somewhat stronger than that, we already have him pushing 60% of Future 17.

If #20 is already stronger than this Trunks by a good amount (Yardrat Goku), then stacked with a decent amount of stolen energy, and Piccolo outclasses him still, then Trunks, who is so far above Piccolo that they're not even considered in the same tier, would be far beyond his Future #17 and #18, but we know for certain that he definitely isn't. Even if you stuck Trunks' initial power at 50% of Future 17, he would still be surpassing him by a decent amount.

I really think it's the most logical fit for the puzzle pieces provided.

 

[Victorious]

If Piccolo was as weak as Freeza or SSJ Namek Goku or whatever, there would have been no "maybe we just got too strong" part. There would be no questioning, no speculation, no nothing. It would simply be "you're just nowhere near as strong as we were expecting". Simple as 2 + 2 = 4. Piccolo thinking he perhaps just got too strong already puts him far beyond SSJ Future Trunks. Impossible any other way. How could he possibly [assuming he has a brain] be as weak or weaker than Freeza is and believe there's a possibility he got too strong?

But he still has every reason to believe they're the enemy Trunks was talking about, even if they quite clearly couldn't beat Trunks. Because, after all, they're a pair of violent androids out to kill Goku and co.. Regardless of their power, what else could they be but the things Trunks was warning them of?

So, Piccolo obviously doesn't find to them to be as terrible as expected, but realising they're quite obviously the enemy, he concludes that the future has changed somehow, and that, either himself and the others are stronger than he realises a somewhat ridiculous explanation, I feel or the enemy is weaker than they imagined them to be (Yardrat Gokuish).

We then find out that they're not even the threat Trunks was talking about, thus giving us the answer as to why they were so much weaker than expected, and in what way the future changed. To me, it's quite clear that they fell short of being something capable of beating Future Trunks, and I can comfortably explain Piccolo's willingness to try out #20 for himself being down to how pitiful #19 looked compared to someone of Goku's standing, when Piccolo probably expected that that sort of power is what would have been required of this terrible threat Trunks spoke of.


Also, I want to bring up the limit on their power gains I mentioned earlier, because I find it to be a solid roof, and a more solid foundation than Piccolo contemplating whether he is inexplicably much stronger than he knows himself to be, due to the ease of which he beat someone whose power he can't feel, but understands where it should roughly be.

That is, since Future Gohan must have been at the minimum 50% - 55% of Future 17 being that he was confident that he could take on what must have been 40 - 45% of his power and Trunks should then be somewhat stronger than that, we already have him pushing 60% of Future 17.

If #20 is already stronger than this Trunks by a good amount (Yardrat Goku), then stacked with a decent amount of stolen energy, and Piccolo outclasses him still, then Trunks, who is so far above Piccolo that they're not even considered in the same tier, would be far beyond his Future #17 and #18, but we know for certain that he definitely isn't. Even if you stuck Trunks' initial power at 50% of Future 17, he would still be surpassing him by a decent amount.

I really think it's the most logical fit for the puzzle pieces provided.

I have Future Trunks going from 50-55% of Future #17's power during the Mecha Freeza arc to 90% of Future #17s power during the Androids saga. That's a huge power up so what's wrong with that? And Future #17 i have at = to SSJ Vegeta in the present timeline.

As for Future Gohan vs 40% Future #17. He's only somewhat confident, he thinks there is a good chance he could die. He should obviously surpass one but not be to far. I'd say 40% Future #17 being in the 85 to 88% range of 1 armed Future Gohan makes most sense.

Anyway, how powerful do you think Piccolo is? As i said it's impossible for him to be lower than SSJ Future Trunks [mecha] considering his statement. "maybe we just got too strong", and also his confidence going into the fight. There is a lower limit to the warned Androids power but there is no upper limit. Which is why Piccolo is unsure, but he wouldnt be unsure if he was SSJ Goku or Freeza level...the answer would be obvious. Again, there's no getting around this without turning Piccolo into a moron.

 

[Victorious]

Goku has been training for save his and his family's life for the last 3 full years man. Even if he is sick, why would he not be able to smash his previous self?

Sick Goku should be able to handle Yardrat Goku with ease.

Even if we totally discredit Ten, then it's just a toss up. There still is absolutely nothing pointing to Yardrat >> sick Goku.

If you watch the fight in the anime, you'll realize that the author is trying to convey that only Piccolo and Gohan know something is wrong. Everyone else is amazed at Goku. Which again suggests FP Goku >>> Sick Goku >> Yardrat Goku...as Gohan and Piccolo are the only ones underwhelmed.

Anyway, some of these idiots don't even thing FP Goku could smash his previous self...and go with 1.1x power up garbage for the 3 years intense trainiing. It's obviously nonsense.

 

[ahill1]

Anyway, how powerful do you think Piccolo is? As i said it's impossible for him to be lower than SSJ Future Trunks [mecha] considering his statement. "maybe we just got too strong", and also his confidence going into the fight. There is a lower limit to the warned Androids power but there is no upper limit. Which is why Piccolo is unsure, but he wouldnt be unsure if he was SSJ Goku or Freeza level...the answer would be obvious. Again, there's no getting around this without turning Piccolo into a moron.

This part was kinda addressed, man. Look at the comment above.

As for Piccolo, his placement isn't made too clear in the story, from my current beliefs.

Piccolo think #20 could be the real android -- Because who or what else could they be? They are very obviously androids, and they are out to kill them, on the very day Trunks specified they would. Everything about them matches up with what Trunks says except their power, as evidenced by Piccolo questioning it and it alone, which follows on from Vegeta previously saying they're not as terrible as the rumours made out, but not that they're not therefore the androids because it would be absolutely absurd to conclude that they're not... It's the only thing about them Piccolo questions, and the only thing Vegeta said was different, because everything else lines up with the rumours - their power doesn't.

The power discrepancy is then explained when Trunks comes and directly tells us they're not the exact androids he was on about, and the future had in-fact changed as Piccolo suspected, but not not in either of the ways he supposed it must have. It's not that the androids-proper are weaker or that Piccolo et al are bizarrely stronger than he realises (nothing confirms this or acts like it really might be true) but that different androids entirely have appeared at the time Trunks warned, which perfectly explains why they're not as strong as they should be.

You could take Piccolo's question towards them getting too strong to mean that, but pay attention at how he structures his sentence

"Were you guys not as terrible as we thought? or have we grown too strong?"

To say it another way: if the androids aren't weaker than foretold, then Piccolo is saying he would therefore have to be stronger than he realises to make sense of things, which can only mean he shouldn't be able to beat an opponent at the level of power Trunks told them about like he is. If he could, why would he need to be stronger to make sense of his victory in the possibility that the androids themselves aren't simply weaker? Because he can't.


As for Piccolo, he could be above a low-balled Yardrat-Goku at his absolute best, but that's really pushing it, to be honest. The gap between him and Trunks in that case wouldn't do service at all to the fact that he's not in the same league as this weakest of the Super Saiyans, let alone the group in general, and it means Goku's considerable power loss from the sickness would've been made pretty modest just to allow Piccolo to be that high.

Him being about equal to Yardrat-Goku would probably suffice, but he's more likely to be anywhere from just below 100% Freeza to between Mecha-Freeza and initial Trunks, with the androids following suit. Any of these would perfectly explain his questioning of their powers and his own absurd gains, among other things.

 

[Victorious]

Anyway, how powerful do you think Piccolo is? As i said it's impossible for him to be lower than SSJ Future Trunks [mecha] considering his statement. "maybe we just got too strong", and also his confidence going into the fight. There is a lower limit to the warned Androids power but there is no upper limit. Which is why Piccolo is unsure, but he wouldnt be unsure if he was SSJ Goku or Freeza level...the answer would be obvious. Again, there's no getting around this without turning Piccolo into a moron.

This part was kinda addressed, man. Look at the comment above.

As for Piccolo, his placement isn't made too clear in the story, from my current beliefs.

Piccolo think #20 could be the real android -- Because who or what else could they be? They are very obviously androids, and they are out to kill them, on the very day Trunks specified they would. Everything about them matches up with what Trunks says except their power, as evidenced by Piccolo questioning it and it alone, which follows on from Vegeta previously saying they're not as terrible as the rumours made out, but not that they're not therefore the androids because it would be absolutely absurd to conclude that they're not... It's the only thing about them Piccolo questions, and the only thing Vegeta said was different, because everything else lines up with the rumours - their power doesn't.

The power discrepancy is then explained when Trunks comes and directly tells us they're not the exact androids he was on about, and the future had in-fact changed as Piccolo suspected, but not not in either of the ways he supposed it must have. It's not that the androids-proper are weaker or that Piccolo et al are bizarrely stronger than he realises (nothing confirms this or acts like it really might be true) but that different androids entirely have appeared at the time Trunks warned, which perfectly explains why they're not as strong as they should be.

You could take Piccolo's question towards them getting too strong to mean that, but pay attention at how he structures his sentence

"Were you guys not as terrible as we thought? or have we grown too strong?"

To say it another way: if the androids aren't weaker than foretold, then Piccolo is saying he would therefore have to be stronger than he realises to make sense of things, which can only mean he shouldn't be able to beat an opponent at the level of power Trunks told them about like he is. If he could, why would he need to be stronger to make sense of his victory in the possibility that the androids themselves aren't simply weaker? Because he can't.


As for Piccolo, he could be above a low-balled Yardrat-Goku at his absolute best, but that's really pushing it, to be honest. The gap between him and Trunks in that case wouldn't do service at all to the fact that he's not in the same league as this weakest of the Super Saiyans, let alone the group in general, and it means Goku's considerable power loss from the sickness would've been made pretty modest just to allow Piccolo to be that high.

Him being about equal to Yardrat-Goku would probably suffice, but he's more likely to be anywhere from just below 100% Freeza to between Mecha-Freeza and initial Trunks, with the androids following suit. Any of these would perfectly explain his questioning of their powers and his own absurd gains, among other things.

Why would "have we grown too strong" mean Piccolo doesn't know his own power? Talk about twisted logic and pulling something out of nothing. You're telling me Piccolo know's healthy Goku's full power but not his own?, rubbish.

He knows his own power, and he knows the lower limit of what's required by the rumors (someone who can tool SSJ Trunks from 3 years ago). What he doesn't know is the upper limit of the Androids from of the rumors.

I also dont get why Piccolo's max would have to be a low balled Yardrat Goku? I have him smashing Yardrat Goku. Heck I think he could smash 2 Yardrat Gokus in a 2 on 1.

Sure he's below Trunks who is the weakest of the current Super Saiyans but that is Android arc Trunks not Mecha Freeza arc Trunks.

Again Trunks must have 2 different levels based on his two very different descriptions on how he can fight the Future Androids...Piccolo is only below the Trunks that can fight them fairly well, he should be way above the Trunks that was utterly no match for them. Both his confidence going into the fight as well as the very statement (have we grown too strong?) indicate this.

Again there's no getting around this making one simple basal assumption that Piccolo has a brain.

 

[ahill1]

Anyway, how powerful do you think Piccolo is? As i said it's impossible for him to be lower than SSJ Future Trunks [mecha] considering his statement. "maybe we just got too strong", and also his confidence going into the fight. There is a lower limit to the warned Androids power but there is no upper limit. Which is why Piccolo is unsure, but he wouldnt be unsure if he was SSJ Goku or Freeza level...the answer would be obvious. Again, there's no getting around this without turning Piccolo into a moron.

This part was kinda addressed, man. Look at the comment above.

As for Piccolo, his placement isn't made too clear in the story, from my current beliefs.

Piccolo think #20 could be the real android -- Because who or what else could they be? They are very obviously androids, and they are out to kill them, on the very day Trunks specified they would. Everything about them matches up with what Trunks says except their power, as evidenced by Piccolo questioning it and it alone, which follows on from Vegeta previously saying they're not as terrible as the rumours made out, but not that they're not therefore the androids because it would be absolutely absurd to conclude that they're not... It's the only thing about them Piccolo questions, and the only thing Vegeta said was different, because everything else lines up with the rumours - their power doesn't.

The power discrepancy is then explained when Trunks comes and directly tells us they're not the exact androids he was on about, and the future had in-fact changed as Piccolo suspected, but not not in either of the ways he supposed it must have. It's not that the androids-proper are weaker or that Piccolo et al are bizarrely stronger than he realises (nothing confirms this or acts like it really might be true) but that different androids entirely have appeared at the time Trunks warned, which perfectly explains why they're not as strong as they should be.

You could take Piccolo's question towards them getting too strong to mean that, but pay attention at how he structures his sentence

"Were you guys not as terrible as we thought? or have we grown too strong?"

To say it another way: if the androids aren't weaker than foretold, then Piccolo is saying he would therefore have to be stronger than he realises to make sense of things, which can only mean he shouldn't be able to beat an opponent at the level of power Trunks told them about like he is. If he could, why would he need to be stronger to make sense of his victory in the possibility that the androids themselves aren't simply weaker? Because he can't.


As for Piccolo, he could be above a low-balled Yardrat-Goku at his absolute best, but that's really pushing it, to be honest. The gap between him and Trunks in that case wouldn't do service at all to the fact that he's not in the same league as this weakest of the Super Saiyans, let alone the group in general, and it means Goku's considerable power loss from the sickness would've been made pretty modest just to allow Piccolo to be that high.

Him being about equal to Yardrat-Goku would probably suffice, but he's more likely to be anywhere from just below 100% Freeza to between Mecha-Freeza and initial Trunks, with the androids following suit. Any of these would perfectly explain his questioning of their powers and his own absurd gains, among other things.

Why would "have we grown too strong" mean Piccolo doesn't know his own power? Talk about twisted logic and pulling something out of nothing. You're telling me Piccolo know's healthy Goku's full power but not his own?, rubbish.

He knows his own power, and he knows the lower limit of what's required by the rumors (someone who can tool SSJ Trunks from 3 years ago). What he doesn't know is the upper limit of the Androids from of the rumors.

I also dont get why Piccolo's max would have to be a low balled Yardrat Goku? I have him smashing Yardrat Goku. Heck I think he could smash 2 Yardrat Gokus in a 2 on 1.

Sure he's below Trunks who is the weakest of the current Super Saiyans but that is Android arc Trunks not Mecha Freeza arc Trunks.

Again Trunks must have 2 different levels based on his two very different descriptions on how he can fight the Future Androids...Piccolo is only below the Trunks that can fight them fairly well, he should be way above the Trunks that was utterly no match for them. Both his confidence going into the fight as well as the very statement (have we grown too strong?) indicate this.

Again there's no getting around this making one simple basal assumption that Piccolo has a brain.

As for Piccolo saying he doesn't lack confidence, Goku, who is considerably stronger than Piccolo, to the point that they're not in the same league, wasn't sure whether they could win. By Piccolo's own admission Goku was pretty carefree, which means he wasn't lacking confidence he's certainly more confident than the questioning and clearly not carefree Piccolo, but still wasn't sure whether he could win.

Piccolo's still exceptionally strong and useful in a battle. Not lacking confidence doesn't mean he expects himself to be beating an opponent at the level they're expecting. Especially not if Goku isn't even sure himself.

Besides, weren't all the humans even told not to turn up if they weren't confident in their power (paraphrasing) and yet they pretty much all turned up? Doesn't mean anything.

Piccolo entertains the possibility that the androids' powers actually are what Trunks said they would be, despite how they appear too weak, which would therefore have to be explained by Piccolo and the others actually having grown too strong. This is why he presents the ideas as an "either/or" - it's one or the other. It can't be both.

And if he's saying the androids being as strong as Trunks said means he and the others must therefore have grown too strong, he's outright saying he shouldn't be able to do this to an opponent that is as strong as Trunks said. To explain it, he himself would have to be stronger than initially thought, as he says... Hence, stronger than he realises, since he consider he might that strong before seeing how weak this supposed monster is against him.

No one suggests this possibility when Goku was briefly winning or when Vegeta was absolutely dominating #19. It's simply "the androids don't seem as terrible as the rumours made out", but even if they are the Super Saiyans' dominance isn't made out to be nonsensical given their current powers. Piccolo's is, so he considers reevaluating their own strength on the off chance the androids themselves actually are as strong as foretold.

Of course, we know they're not - as Vegeta said and Piccolo suspected, because they're simply not the monsters Trunks was on about, so there's no need to reevaluate their own power.

 

[Kyo]

Why are your strength checker quotes so jank lol

a threat that he could already fight fairly well

No he couldn’t.

besides the circular logic that #20 is

No. There is one line to show Piccolo is on that tier. There is another to show both are on that tier. The latter is not circular logic. Piccolo considers that he is > x, he would only consider x if #20 were comparable to x. That’s it.

There is no way that #19 and #20 as strong as the #17 and #18 in Trunks' time

Not to mention, them having grown too strong was only one of two possibilities he considers - not the answer to that consideration. The other possibility is that they're not as strong as they feared, and we seemingly get that answer to the question when they're revealed to be completely different androids to the ones Trunks was warning them about. Ergo, these androids are not as strong as the ones Trunks warned them about, because they're not even the androids that Trunks warned them about.

Okay I’ve definitely seen this before. Who is this user?

Besides, weren't all the humans even told not to turn up if they weren't confident in their power (paraphrasing) and yet they pretty much all turned up? Doesn't mean anything.

No dude, they were all on the verge of pussying out. [mention]Pyro[/mention] can tell you all about it.

 

[Victorious]

The user sounds like VOR mixed with xxSkelterxx. All he did was ignore every point I made too.

Anyway Piccolo has confidence but some degree of uncertainty because as I said there's no upper limit on the Androids strength. The Z senshi know the Androids can dismantle Trunks from 3 years and that's it. But Piccolo would have 0 confidence if he was as weak as Trunks from 3 years ago . So just based on his confidence he should be able to wreck Trunks too which would make him a rival to the lowest possible tier the Androids are.

As for the Androids #19 and #20. As long as you do indeed put them significantly below Future #17 and Future #18 there's no problem. I think post absorbtions they can take down Future Trunks from 3 years ago too.

Not to mention, them having grown too strong was only one of two possibilities he considers - not the answer to that consideration. The other possibility is that they're not as strong as they feared, and we seemingly get that answer to the question when they're revealed to be completely different androids to the ones Trunks was warning them about. Ergo, these androids are not as strong as the ones Trunks warned them about, because they're not even the androids that Trunks warned them about.

No one is suggesting they are equal to Future #17 or Future #18. The real question is why was Piccolo or Vegeta getting too strong even brought up? Because they are both far far beyond Trunks from 3 years ago that's why. If not it would have never been brought up.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No. There is one line to show Piccolo is on that tier. There is another to show both are on that tier. The latter is not circular logic. Piccolo considers that he is > x, he would only consider x if #20 were comparable to x. That’s it.

Some people try to argue that Piccolo's statement is invalid because he can't sense their Ki and nothing implies he can gauge power by movements (???). What do you think about that?

 

[ahill1]

Why are your strength checker quotes so jank lol

a threat that he could already fight fairly well

No he couldn’t.

besides the circular logic that #20 is

No. There is one line to show Piccolo is on that tier. There is another to show both are on that tier. The latter is not circular logic. Piccolo considers that he is > x, he would only consider x if #20 were comparable to x. That’s it.

There is no way that #19 and #20 as strong as the #17 and #18 in Trunks' time

Not to mention, them having grown too strong was only one of two possibilities he considers - not the answer to that consideration. The other possibility is that they're not as strong as they feared, and we seemingly get that answer to the question when they're revealed to be completely different androids to the ones Trunks was warning them about. Ergo, these androids are not as strong as the ones Trunks warned them about, because they're not even the androids that Trunks warned them about.

Okay I’ve definitely seen this before. Who is this user?

Besides, weren't all the humans even told not to turn up if they weren't confident in their power (paraphrasing) and yet they pretty much all turned up? Doesn't mean anything.

No dude, they were all on the verge of pussying out. @Pyro can tell you all about it.

The user is Lazuli/Sandy Shore. I was parroting his points. Wish he was here to speak for himself. He is rather good at it. Sadly he disappeared since 2017.

He addressed some points of yours in a convo I was having with him via PM. I can display it here.

 

[Kyo]

No. There is one line to show Piccolo is on that tier. There is another to show both are on that tier. The latter is not circular logic. Piccolo considers that he is > x, he would only consider x if #20 were comparable to x. That’s it.

Some people try to argue that Piccolo's statement is invalid because he can't sense their Ki and nothing implies he can gauge power by movements (???). What do you think about that?

Even if he couldn’t gauge by movement (which he can, since Vegeta did), he made the statement after fighting the guy. He should know.


Ok I don’t remember if it was Lazuli I debated with way back then since I didn’t run into him much but I wouldn’t be surprised. Post the messages if you want.

 

[Pyro]

[mention]ahill1[/mention]

https://dbzf.co.uk/how-stong-are-the-humans-buu-arc-t42760-s30.html#p708555
https://dbzf.co.uk/viz-comparison-t49422-s15.html#p863019

 

[ahill1]

Again Trunks must have 2 different levels based on his two very different descriptions on how he can fight the Future Androids...Piccolo is only below the Trunks that can fight them fairly well, he should be way above the Trunks that was utterly no match for them. Both his confidence going into the fight as well as the very statement (have we grown too strong?) indicate this.

Lazuli had also voiced his opinion on this:

How do you know when Trunks says he could fight them fairly well, he wasn't talking about the same previous bout? The gap between them was still too huge for him to win, but he could have fought them fairly well. After all, they failed to finish him off, and we have nothing to suggest they were holding back.

You have as much reason to believe he's talking about a separate fight as I do to believe it's the same fight.

As for Goku being able to "finger tool" Future Trunks:

A) Goku wasn't so strong compared to Trunks that his finger was more powerful than him; this is only achieved because Goku amped his finger up with ki. Condensing his power in to a single point.

B) Even then, Trunks was holding back.
Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P13.3-5
Context: after Trunks and Goku fight
Trunks: As expected, the rumors were true. No, you're even greater!This was the sword that cut even Freeza
Goku: You weren't serious, after all.

They're both stronger than Freeza, with Goku being more so, but they were always in the same realm of power. Applying a 1.2x gap between all three should more than suffice, and if we take Trunks' line about it being the sword that cut Freeza to mean he was attacking Goku with the same power he used on Freeza as I think some people do, then the gap is plenty big enough without Trunks holding back all that much.

So, with that in mind, if you think Goku is at least double the power he was on Namek, then Trunks too would be far stronger than he was when he met Goku. In order for him to stay relevant. Using Trunks as a measuring stick, and supposing he's talking about the same fight in those two quotes, then I don't think Trunks is anywhere near doubled in power. If he had, he would have dealt with his own android problem.

Not only that, but we're lead to believe that Goku merely being around to fight when the androids came would have made all the difference. Trunks only sought to prevent him from dying via the heart virus, so he could do just that. I don't recall Trunks ever telling Goku that he's going to have to train his socks off. In-fact, wasn't it Piccolo's idea to get everyone to prepare? Therefore, a Goku without those three-years of serious training is potentially a match for the original androids. As I've said, Goku isn't necessarily that far above Trunks, and if Goku without those three-years of training, though, obviously still having gotten somewhat stronger could match even one of the androids, then Trunks making the sort of gains you're supposing they all did should put him well above them before he re-enters the present.

 

[ahill1]

[mention]Kyo[/mention]

I talked to Lazuli through PM. Here are our convo and his points regarding Piccolo pre Kami, pretty much explaining why Piccolo MIGHT not be as strong as we think.


AHILL1:

Hey, Sandy Shore. I'd like to raise some points regarding Piccolo's pre Kami power, but would like to do so here rather than in the thread I created a while ago. Whilst I agree that Piccolo's power pre fusion is still something debatable and that can be looked upon under more than one way, I still do so more because of the points that happnes to come after them Z warriors' defeat at the androids' hands -- like Kami's statement itself (which could possibly implicate the Namekian isn't able of replicating the same feats), although I think that everything that comes before is unquestionably on Piccolo's side.


One of the points the Piccolo's supporters will -- pretty likely -- bring up is his questioning of the situation later on, wondering if the androids are really up to the rumors or if they just got too strong, without immediately stating they were just not the real androids and calling it a day.


Granted we pretty much got the response from Trunks' himself immediately after -- actually, not exactly the answer, just Trunks saying they aren't the real androids, whereas the question wasn't putting into doubt the veracity of the androids, but rather their strength... they were under the assumption they were the real androids, but with their strength adultered[maybe] -- but even if they turned out to not be the real threat doesn't mean Piccolo's assumption for this being the case is baseless or anything like this.

Getting the real answer to a question later may mean that a character was 'wrong' in his initial assumptions in a way, but it does not change the reasoning a character took to reach his initial assumption, which can be just as insightful and valid. Knowledge that a character gains later does not necessarily change the implication of a statement that said character made prior to gaining that knowledge. in the Piccolo vs #20 scene, what's important is that Piccolo does think that #20 could be a real android. He makes his statement based on this assumption. We get the real answer later, of course, but that doesn't mean Piccolo was talking out of his a*** before we got it. He would not consider that he'd gotten "too strong" if there wasn't reason to believe it.

If, in reality, Piccolo was weak and #20 was even weaker, then it would make the most sense, in terms of the narrative, for Piccolo to find it confusing that someone of his lowly caliber could stand up to #20. This would then serve as direct foreshadowing for the scene in which Trunks reveals that these aren't the real androids. Instead, Piccolo isn't sure and considers both possibilities. This still serves somewhat as foreshadowing for Trunks's reveal, but it also establishes that it is entirely possible that #20 is a real android and that Piccolo was "too strong." That is to say, #20 has the power to be considered a real android --somewhat --, but that doesn't actually make him one. Just because we figure out that he's not one, doesn't mean he HAS to be too weak to even be considered.

I disagree that Piccolo questioning Gero's strength means Piccolo himself thinks he can't beat an opponent who could make a fool out of Trunks. I can see from where you are coming from, but, were that the case, it wouldn't make more sense for him to completely dismiss their strength rather than consider both possibilities imo, specially when he said before that the future has changed somehow, and Vegeta also completely dismissed #19, which would also indicate he can't make a fool out of someone who can make a fool out of Trunks? Sure, Vegeta reached this conclusion based on this latter's movements, but Piccolo could have put their power in doubt simply by him defeating #20 easily than he himself explected.

---------------------------/-----------------------

LAZULI:

in the Piccolo vs #20 scene, what's important is that Piccolo does think that #20 could be a real android.

Because who or what else could they be? They are very obviously androids, and they are out to kill them, on the very day Trunks specified they would. Everything about them matches up with what Trunks says except their power, as evidenced by Piccolo questioning it and it alone, which follows on from Vegeta previously saying they're not as terrible as the rumours made out, but not that they're not therefore the androids because it would be absolutely absurd to conclude that they're not... It's the only thing about them Piccolo questions, and the only thing Vegeta said was different, because everything else lines up with the rumours - their power doesn't.

The power discrepancy is then explained when Trunks comes and directly tells us they're not the exact androids he was on about, and the future had in-fact changed as Piccolo suspected, but not not in either of the ways he supposed it must have. It's not that the androids-proper are weaker or that Piccolo et al are bizarrely stronger than he realises (nothing confirms this or acts like it really might be true) but that different androids entirely have appeared at the time Trunks warned, which perfectly explains why they're not as strong as they should be.

Vegeta also completely dismissed #19, which would also indicate he can't make a fool out of someone who can make a fool out of Trunks? Sure, Vegeta reached this conclusion based on this latter's movements, but Piccolo could have put their power in doubt simply by him defeating #20 easily than he himself explected.

But Vegeta doesn't go on to suggest his own power would have to be higher than previously imagined to make sense of him dominating #19 as Piccolo does when he starts beating up #20. For it to make sense that Piccolo is beating up #20 he suggests the enemy is either weaker than foretold, as Vegeta said they were, or that they've themselves become way stronger than they realise, somehow.

To say it another way: if the androids aren't weaker than foretold, then Piccolo is saying he would therefore have to be stronger than he realises to make sense of things, which can only mean he shouldn't be able to beat an opponent at the level of power Trunks told them about like he is. If he could, why would he need to be stronger to make sense of his victory in the possibility that the androids themselves aren't simply weaker? Because he can't.

Vegeta just says they're not as terrible as foretold and that's that. Doesn't even hint that he shouldn't be able to fight them even if they actually were as strong as they expected them to be.



--------------------------------------------#------------

AHILL1

I badly chose the words, meant to say "the androids with his power unadultered". Basically, what I get, is that #19 (post absorptions) isn't strong enough, to the point Vegeta would completely dismiss him, whereas #20 post absorptions is strong to the point the question would arise in Piccolo's mind. Basically, #20 is strong enough that he could defeat Trunks from three years ago, but maybe not to the point the young Saiyajin would consider him a "monster", or something like this. It's also worth noting that Piccolo stated he doesn't lack confidence in his own powers when they were in their way to battle the androids, so them androids being defeated by Piccolo is something this latter already expected could be the case -- but maybe not as easily as it happened with #20 -- hence the question.

Shouldn't Piccolo just say "you guys weren't as strong as we thought" and leave it at that was him [and consequently #20] weaker than Trunks?

Also, why do you say "he would therefore have to be stronger than he realizes"? I don't get the impression that that's what Piccolo is saying. Somewhat rephrasing:

_Either you aren't as strong as we thought or we grew too strong

It's not like he is saying "we have grown stronger than we ourselves have realized". The "we have grown too strong" is basically "we have gotten too strong", which leads to them basically being too strong at that point. Not just he [Piccolo], he is also including Vegeta and probably Goku, hence "we".

What is weird though -- and that could be a counter to my conclusion, dunno -- is that Piccolo says "it's this or this". It seems he is considering both options mutually exclusive, right? Basically, "if those guys [actually just #20] isn't as strong as we thought he would be", then "we haven't grown too strong"?


---------------------------------------/-------------------

LAZULI

Basically, what I get, is that #19 (post absorptions) isn't strong enough, to the point Vegeta would completely dismiss him, whereas #20 post absorptions is strong to the point the question would arise in Piccolo's mind.

Vegeta says that both of them aren't as terrible as the rumours made out, and then Piccolo comments on both of their power when he says they weren't as strong as they thought.

Basically, #20 is strong enough that he could defeat Trunks from three years ago, but maybe not to the point the young Saiyajin would consider him a "monster", or something like this.

It could work with the power-scaling, if you do some heavy lowballing, but nothing at all suggests they even have to be that strong we just get multiple implications that they're not as strong as they were expected to be, and then outright confirmation that it's because they're not even the androids they were expected to be and Piccolo's questioning of his own power, in tandem with the the power-cap I explained in my post on the topic before, suggests Piccolo himself is only really about that level at his own best.

Couple in the amount of energy #19 must've absorbed and still been crushed by a Vegeta that is now possibly too weak to beat #20 and you might actually be looking at a very large gap.

It's also worth noting that Piccolo stated he doesn't lack confidence in his own powers when they were in their way to battle the androids, so them androids being defeated by Piccolo is something this latter already expected could be the case -- but maybe not as easily as it happened with #20 -- hence the question.

Not really, because Goku, who is considerably stronger than Piccolo, to the point that they're not in the same league, wasn't sure whether they could win. By Piccolo's own admission Goku was pretty carefree, which means he wasn't lacking confidence—he's certainly more confident than the questioning and clearly not carefree Piccolo—but still wasn't sure whether he could win.

Piccolo's still exceptionally strong and useful in a battle. Not lacking confidence doesn't mean he expects himself to be beating an opponent at the level they're expecting. Especially not if Goku isn't even sure himself.

Besides, weren't all the humans even told not to turn up if they weren't confident in their power (paraphrasing) and yet they pretty much all turned up? Doesn't mean anything.

Shouldn't Piccolo just say "you guys weren't as strong as we thought" and leave it at that was him [and consequently #20] weaker than Trunks?

No, because he entertains the possibility that the androids' powers actually are what Trunks said they would be, despite how they appear too weak, which would therefore have to be explained by Piccolo and the others actually having grown too strong. This is why he presents the ideas as an "either/or" - it's one or the other. It can't be both.

And if he's saying the androids being as strong as Trunks said means he and the others must therefore have grown too strong, he's outright saying he shouldn't be able to do this to an opponent that is as strong as Trunks said. To explain it, he himself would have to be stronger than initially thought, as he says... Hence, stronger than he realises, since he consider he might that strong before seeing how weak this supposed monster is against him.

No one suggests this possibility when Goku was briefly winning or when Vegeta was absolutely dominating #19. It's simply "the androids don't seem as terrible as the rumours made out", but even if they are the Super Saiyans' dominance isn't made out to be nonsensical given their current powers. Piccolo's is, so he considers reevaluating their own strength on the off chance the androids themselves actually are as strong as foretold.

Of course, we know they're not - as Vegeta said and Piccolo suspected, because they're simply not the monsters Trunks was on about, so there's no need to reevaluate their own power.

I don't think there's any point in further trying to explain after this message. If you don't see it then you don't see it—apparently no one else does, either, even though they've never even attempted to refute any of these points I've occasionally made in the past—and my further reiterating won't change that. If there are other questions you'd like to ask me about, though, I'll try and answer them as briefly as I can.

_____________________________



So, what do you think about his points?

 

[Victorious]

Again Trunks must have 2 different levels based on his two very different descriptions on how he can fight the Future Androids...Piccolo is only below the Trunks that can fight them fairly well, he should be way above the Trunks that was utterly no match for them. Both his confidence going into the fight as well as the very statement (have we grown too strong?) indicate this.

Lazuli had also voiced his opinion on this:

How do you know when Trunks says he could fight them fairly well, he wasn't talking about the same previous bout? The gap between them was still too huge for him to win, but he could have fought them fairly well. After all, they failed to finish him off, and we have nothing to suggest they were holding back.

You have as much reason to believe he's talking about a separate fight as I do to believe it's the same fight.

Who says they even wanted to finish him off? They kept Gohan alive after they beat him the first time.

Anyway, you can't be 'absolutely no match' for someone and also 'fight them fairly well'. So either he's a contradictory machine or he's had at least 2 encounters with the Future Androids since Future Gohan's death. Seriously 'common sense' is all that is needed to settle this dispute.


Trunks version 1.0 / Mecha Freeza arc vs Future Androids

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P17.3
Context: Trunks is in hospital after losing to the androids.
Trunks: “You were right… The gap between me and the androids was still huge…I think I’m lucky to have returned alive…”

Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1
Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18
Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”


Trunks version 2.0 / Android arc Trunks vs Future Androids

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”



Actually the descriptions of Trunks version 1.0 vs the Future Androids sounds a lot like Trunks version 2.0 verses the present Androids.


Chapter: 359 (DBZ 165), P2.1, P3.1
Context: talking about the 3 androids being after Goku
Bulma: “Hm~ph, couldn’t you all just gang up on those guys?!”
Trunks: “You’ve got to be kidding. Father, myself, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan all went at them and were helpless.”
Bulma: “Huh, so they’re that incredible…”




Trunks having 2 different levels is the only way to make any sense of this. Again him having 2 levels puts everything together nice and smoothly. He did return to his timeline after all. And 3 years did pass by.

 

[Pyro]

Trunks told his mom that there was a huge gap between him and the androids the first time, then later said the androids weren't so outrageously strong. There's a difference.

 

[ahill1]

Trunks told his mom that there was a huge gap between him and the androids the first time, then later said the androids weren't so outrageously strong. There's a difference.

So outrageously strong as this -- in comparison to the present androids. Still outrageously strong ^^. But I agree, I also do think Trunks has improved.

[mention]Victorious[/mention]

What do you think about the point that the fight Trunks put against his androids of his timeline is decent in retrospect to the shameful beatdown he got from the present ones? Whatever he has managed against the future androids could look decent in comparison to getting knocked down in two shots.

There's also this:

Spoiler

Based on the structure of the panels and the dialogues, it seems like #18 would oneshot Trunks right then and there. "He is getting annoyed, can I kill him?" "Yeah" --> shots a blast. Trunks dying there seemed to be what would be happening. Hardly seems like a decent fight imo.


Well, I don't necessarily go that route (I also agree that Trunks improved), but that's food for thought, I guess.