A new outlook in the androids saga

[ahill1]

You also got the quotes mixed up, Vic. Trunks said "he was absolutely no match" for the androids the 2nd time he went back to the past... when he had "apparently grown stronger". He only said to Yardrat Goku that they were too strong and that he could barely manage to come back alive.

 

[Kyo]

Man that’s too much to read lol, and I’m out of town to boot. Have fun with that though.

 

[Kyo]

You also got the quotes mixed up, Vic. Trunks said "he was absolutely no match" for the androids the 2nd time he went back to the past... when he had "apparently grown stronger". He only said to Yardrat Goku that they were too strong and that he could barely manage to come back alive.

And nah Vic didn’t mix anything up, that’s how people have always taken that line.

 

[Victorious]

Yes, that line of being "absolutely no match" was made by Trunks in the Android saga. But context is key here. They were telling him Vegeta has become a Super Saiyan and he was just like "so what, i can also become a Super Saiyan and ive been trashed as a Super Saiyan". Trunks has no reason to believe at this point Vegeta is even as strong as himself either. It's only when he fights #18 Trunks realizes Vegeta's strength. The point is just having "Super Saiyan" aint gonna cut it. So i do take that to mean an earlier time of Trunks, because a few hours later he says he can fight the Future Androids fairly well..and in that statement he must be comparing his current power [as his current power just fought the present Androids]

Either there at least two powers of SSJ Future Trunks or he is giving self contradictory descriptions of his performance vs The Future Androids.

 

[ahill1]

Yes, that line of being "absolutely no match" was made by Trunks in the Android saga. But context is key here. They were telling him Vegeta has become a Super Saiyan and he was just like "so what, i can also become a Super Saiyan and ive been trashed as a Super Saiyan". Trunks has no reason to believe at this point Vegeta is even as strong as himself either. It's only when he fights #18 Trunks realizes Vegeta's strength. The point is just having "Super Saiyan" aint gonna cut it. So i do take that to mean an earlier time of Trunks, because a few hours later he says he can fight the Future Androids fairly well..and in that statement he must be comparing his current power [as his current power just fought the present Androids]

Either there at least two powers of SSJ Future Trunks or he is giving self contradictory descriptions of his performance vs The Future Androids.

You got it mixed up, but I get what' you 're trying to convey. The Trunks who said he was no match for the androids was the one who came back to the past by the second time... and I'm sure that you initially thought that the Trunks who said that was the one who was talking to Yardrat Goku. Now you are trying to rationalize this by saying that Trunks was referring to the time he fought the androids the 1st time, not to his androids saga self. Good way to avoid shooting yourself in the foot, but I myself (yeah, I'm aware that Kyo tried to pull off some explanation like this before) am not keen on this one. Trunks can be merely referring to the second time he fought the androids and was still absolutely no match for them. Yes, Trunks later on stated that he can fight them decently. but there's a new knowledge going on in his mind... the present androids. I can easily say that managing to lay some hits and not get knocked down instantly can be, in retrospect, a decent fight compared to the way he was trashed down by the androids. Piccolo had also just stated that Vegeta has surpassed Goku, so surely the "when I was a SSJ" wouldn't be nonsense as hell if Trunks was referring to the time he first fought one, in which case (according to your logic), he'd be weeeell below Vegeta? Piccolo'd then just bring up the fact that "well, Trunks, you were weak back then, we've all gotten too strong"... think about it.

It's not because Trunks said "I was a SSJ that he is inherently referring to his first fight against the androids. You're trying to get yourself out of this catch 22, it seems.

Joining both statements, what we'd have is that Trunks is still no match for them, but can fight them decently in comparison to getting two-shotted. That's the best way to analyze all the situation imo.


Also, to quote Evil Vegeta...

''As for Trunks comparing himself to Vegeta simply as a Super Saiyan, I don't agree with that, either. Trunks cites the Androids' "stupendous strength" as a reason why he couldn't beat them. I don't see a point in mentioning (do we even know if he fought the Androids when he first became a Super Saiyan?) he's absolutely no match for their strength if he's not comparing it to the most recent encounter.

What good would it be to mention some earlier encounter that wouldn't pertain to his current abilities? That wouldn't be painting an accurate picture of what he's up against. Trunks wasn't aware of Vegeta's full-power, but he heard Piccolo say Vegeta appeared to be more powerful than Goku.

At the minimum, even when considering how much he underestimated Vegeta, I doubt Trunks seriously believed Vegeta was under Yardrat Super Saiyan Goku right there.

Trunks says "Don't worry. I can become a Super Saiyan" when Gohan was worried about him going to look for Cell. I think Trunks mentioning how he can become a Super Saiyan is simply his way of referring to the form. When talking about the Androids, he described them in the same way as he described the power of Cell's Perfect form later in his timeline:''



Which makes more sense imo. Trunks doesn't have to be recollecting his FIRST bout with the android only because he mentioned "I WAS a SSJ too".

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ahill, did Lazulli ever address the implications of Trunks' special chapter? Gohan being unsure if he can take on <50% 17 and Trunks spending 3 days in a coma from the fight before waking up and complaining the gap was still gargantuan kinda implies he's fodder to the future twins.

If we were to assume Debut Trunks = Android Trunks i'd think him holding his own "fairly well" was the hyperbole instead of him being powerless. It's literally only stated once he was putting up a good fight, and that's while he's comparing it with the present twins fight. Other than this everything implies he's fodder to them before and after the fairly well statement.


Also, there's something i'd like to adress about Sick Goku.
Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”

Most people take this statement to mean Goku's at full effort but his power isn't at it's highest as Herms says he interprets it but what if it's the opposite? Goku's power is at it's peak, but his punches lack the weight because the illness is tiring him out. Makes sense when you remember he was out of air when just by flying and Vegeta calls him out of using a strainful form. I remember bringing this up a while ago and everybody agreed.

 

[Victorious]

Yes, that line of being "absolutely no match" was made by Trunks in the Android saga. But context is key here. They were telling him Vegeta has become a Super Saiyan and he was just like "so what, i can also become a Super Saiyan and ive been trashed as a Super Saiyan". Trunks has no reason to believe at this point Vegeta is even as strong as himself either. It's only when he fights #18 Trunks realizes Vegeta's strength. The point is just having "Super Saiyan" aint gonna cut it. So i do take that to mean an earlier time of Trunks, because a few hours later he says he can fight the Future Androids fairly well..and in that statement he must be comparing his current power [as his current power just fought the present Androids]

Either there at least two powers of SSJ Future Trunks or he is giving self contradictory descriptions of his performance vs The Future Androids.

You got it mixed up, but I get what' you 're trying to convey. The Trunks who said he was no match for the androids was the one who came back to the past by the second time... and I'm sure that you initially thought that the Trunks who said that was the one who was talking to Yardrat Goku. Now you are trying to rationalize this by saying that Trunks was referring to the time he fought the androids the 1st time, not to his androids saga self. Good way to avoid shooting yourself in the foot, but I myself (yeah, I'm aware that Kyo tried to pull off some explanation like this before) am not keen on this one. Trunks can be merely referring to the second time he fought the androids and was still absolutely no match for them. Yes, Trunks later on stated that he can fight them decently. but there's a new knowledge going on in his mind... the present androids. I can easily say that managing to lay some hits and not get knocked down instantly can be, in retrospect, a decent fight compared to the way he was trashed down by the androids. Piccolo had also just stated that Vegeta has surpassed Goku, so surely the "when I was a SSJ" wouldn't be nonsense as hell if Trunks was referring to the time he first fought one, in which case (according to your logic), he'd be weeeell below Vegeta? Piccolo'd then just bring up the fact that "well, Trunks, you were weak back then, we've all gotten too strong"... think about it.

It's not because Trunks said "I was a SSJ that he is inherently referring to his first fight against the androids. You're trying to get yourself out of this catch 22, it seems.

Joining both statements, what we'd have is that Trunks is still no match for them, but can fight them decently in comparison to getting two-shotted. That's the best way to analyze all the situation imo.


Also, to quote Evil Vegeta...

''As for Trunks comparing himself to Vegeta simply as a Super Saiyan, I don't agree with that, either. Trunks cites the Androids' "stupendous strength" as a reason why he couldn't beat them. I don't see a point in mentioning (do we even know if he fought the Androids when he first became a Super Saiyan?) he's absolutely no match for their strength if he's not comparing it to the most recent encounter.

What good would it be to mention some earlier encounter that wouldn't pertain to his current abilities? That wouldn't be painting an accurate picture of what he's up against. Trunks wasn't aware of Vegeta's full-power, but he heard Piccolo say Vegeta appeared to be more powerful than Goku.

At the minimum, even when considering how much he underestimated Vegeta, I doubt Trunks seriously believed Vegeta was under Yardrat Super Saiyan Goku right there.

Trunks says "Don't worry. I can become a Super Saiyan" when Gohan was worried about him going to look for Cell. I think Trunks mentioning how he can become a Super Saiyan is simply his way of referring to the form. When talking about the Androids, he described them in the same way as he described the power of Cell's Perfect form later in his timeline:''



Which makes more sense imo. Trunks doesn't have to be recollecting his FIRST bout with the android only because he mentioned "I WAS a SSJ too".

If Trunks didn't say a few hours later "well I can fight them fairly well" I might agree with you but he did. And I didn't mess anything up, I knew that statement was made by Android arc Trunks. "Absolutely no match" doesn't sound remotely like "fight fairly well".

And why would Piccolo bring up "well Trunks you were weak back then" when he doesn't know the future Androids power or Android arc Trunks power yet? Piccolo has reason to be confident in Vegeta...Piccolo was confident in himself of course he may think Vegeta has a shot.

And Trunks wasn't aware of Vegeta or Goku's full power yet. So it doesn't really matter what Piccolo said regarding to how those 2 stack to one another. He's only aware of Vegeta's full power when he's deep in the fight with present #18. So that obviously can't be used to say SSJ Vegeta would be absolutely match for them.

IMO SSJ Vegeta ~ Future Android #17

 

[p123]

Yeah I think Goku and Vegeta are on par with the Future Androids.

 

[Victorious]

Yeah, and I don't think Future #17 has a gap on Future #18. My guess is present Gero suppressed #18 because #17 was too damn strong.

 

[ahill1]

If Trunks didn't say a few hours later "well I can fight them fairly well" I might agree with you but he did. And I didn't mess anything up, I knew that statement was made by Android arc Trunks. "Absolutely no match" doesn't sound remotely like "fight fairly well".

That's why I think the fight looked decent in comparison to the beatdown he suffered from the present androids. Again, the fight he put up against the future androids could look decent in retrospect. There's also #18 getting ready to basically one-shot Trunks with a chi blast when he was back to the future, which you didn't address. #18 says "can I kill him?", #17 gives the freebie and she shoots the blast. Hardly seems like a competitive fight that they were expecting Trunks to put up.

In retrospect, it was a decent fight.

And why would Piccolo bring up "well Trunks you were weak back then" when he doesn't know the future Androids power or Android arc Trunks power yet? Piccolo has reason to be confident in Vegeta...Piccolo was confident in himself of course he may think Vegeta has a shot.

Trunks didn't know exactly the depths of Vegeta's power (although he should have an idea as Vegeta was standing in front of him as a SSJ), but Piccolo informed him that Vegeta was above Goku. And Trunks experienced Yardrat Goku's power, which was significantly stronger than his power... and he knew Goku'd be training his ass off. So he knows that Vegeta (current power) >>> Trunks from the mecha saga, unless you're trying to turn Trunks into an idiot who doesn't know how to put 2 and 2 together. So, already knowing this much about Vegeta's power, would it make sense for him to reference his weak ass power in the mecha saga as a way to make sense of Vegeta having no chance? No, it wouldn't.

Although yeah, this would indicate that Trunks has in fact improved. I just don't think that he is close to his androids.

 

[Victorious]

Trunks didn't know exactly the depths of Vegeta's power (although he should have an idea as Vegeta was standing in front of him as a SSJ), but Piccolo informed him that Vegeta was above Goku. And Trunks experienced Yardrat Goku's power, which was significantly stronger than his power... and he knew Goku'd be training his ass off. So he knows that Vegeta (current power) >>> Trunks from the mecha saga, unless you're trying to turn Trunks into an idiot who doesn't know how to put 2 and 2 together. So, already knowing this much about Vegeta's power, would it make sense for him to reference his weak ass power in the mecha saga as a way to make sense of Vegeta having no chance? No, it wouldn't.

Although yeah, this would indicate that Trunks has in fact improved. I just don't think that he is close to his androids.

I don't see what's so wrong with Trunks thinking Vegeta has no chance so long as he doesn't know Vegeta's full power. Clearly Vegeta turned out to be a lot stronger than he thought.

In my view SSJ Vegeta is equal to Future #17 and #18 which would mean no matter what, at that point in the arc (when Piccolo made his statement) in Trunks' mind Vegeta must be considerably weaker than the Future Androids. Because Vegeta did turn out considerably stronger than Trunks initially thought. So there's no internal inconsistency in my view. Trunks is warranted in his lack of confidence in Vegeta because he hadn't realized how strong Vegeta was.

And sure Trunks can put 2 and 2 together but I don't think Trunks really believed Piccolo until he realized Vegeta's true power (which was deep into the fight with present #18) as he kept hollering at Vegeta "we need to go get Goku" and it's unlikely he'd do that if he really believed Vegeta had surpassed Goku. He's acting like they are dependant on Goku and Goku's their best hope not Vegeta.

But yeah you just kind of discredited yourself unless you think Vegeta just totally blows out Trunks (which was never implied). Trunks has to have vastly improved.

You really can't have a chain like this

Vegeta true power >> Vegeta (Trunks expectations after hearing he surpassed Goku) > Goku (Androids) >>> Trunks from the Mecha arc = Android arc Trunks.

It's implied by both Tien and Piccolo after the fight with the present Androids that Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks are all in the same ball park. If Vegeta is a 10 Trunks should be a 9.

So yeah there's huge internal inconsistencies and broken logic in your view while none in mine.

 

[ahill1]

I don't see what's so wrong with Trunks thinking Vegeta has no chance so long as he doesn't know Vegeta's full power. Clearly Vegeta turned out to be a lot stronger than he thought.

Because Trunks flat out heard Piccolo saying "Vegeta's stronger than Goku"... Piccolo spoke it to Trunks and Trunks was still in denial about them facing the androids without Goku. So according to you shitty logic, Trunks would be contradicting Vegeta's chance by sayiing he himself from the Trunks saga was no match... whereas he knows Vegeta is >>> himself from the Mecha saga. So your completely illogical narrative wants to turn Trunks into a desperate and irrational guy. He is considering his last bout against the androids when he was no match... not a post bout in which he was sent to the hospital. That's dumb.

In my view SSJ Vegeta is equal to Future #17 and #18 which would mean no matter what, at that point in the arc (when Piccolo made his statement) in Trunks' mind Vegeta must be considerably weaker than the Future Androids.

I'm not arguing that Vegeta didn't surpass Trunks' estimations. Don't attack the straw man. I'm just arguing that Trunks is still considerably weaker than the androids of his time... and whatever fight he put up would look decent in comparison to the lame resistance he put up against the present androids.

Because Vegeta did turn out considerably stronger than Trunks initially thought.

I never denied this and I never stated Vegeta didn't surpass Trunks' estimations. What I'm saying is that Trunks still envisioned Vegeta, before seeing him fighting #18, as stronger than he himself in the mecha saga. Trunks was standing right there to Piccolo, saw Piccolo commenting how Vegeta has surpassed Goku and still thought that he had no chance against the androids because he himself as a SSJ was absolutely no match -- and as a way to convey how Vegeta's chances are null, he likely was referring to a confrontation in which his power was decent.

And sure Trunks can put 2 and 2 together but I don't think Trunks really believed Piccolo until he realized Vegeta's true power

Assumption. No need to believe Trunks didn't believe Piccolo. Unless we've a comment from Trunks questioning Piccolo's words, Vegeta > Goku still should remain something to be believed in Trunks's mind.

Vegeta (real power) > Vegeta (Trunks' estimations) > Goku.

He still wished to wait for Goku, for some reason... I think this had to do with how much Bulma made Goku to be an unbelievable guy on his story... or because streaking together with another SSJ would be helpful.

and it's unlikely he'd do that if he really believed Vegeta had surpassed Goku. He's acting like they are dependant on Goku and Goku's their best hope not Vegeta.

Tenshinhan also seems to hold Goku in a special pedestal, saying that "not even Goku can do anything", which would imply he thinks Goku's chance to strike the androids down are bigger than Vegeta's... yet he clearly saw Piccolo stating that Vegeta surpassed Goku. Is Tenshinhan not believing Piccolo as well?

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.1-2
Context: after Vegeta scares No.20 away with a bluff
Piccolo: “He really had lost a lot of stamina…when he confirmed that the androids sucked out energy with the palms of their hands…He ought to have lost if he had fought that No.20 guy…But he talked as if he still had something up his sleeve…Vegeta really is a fighting genius…He might have sur-surpassed…Goku…”


Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Context: talking about how Trunks and co. lost to the androids
Tenshinhan: “[Trunks] is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…He definitely can’t win…! Not even Goku…”

They just seem to hold Goku on a special pedestal for some reason. I had disagreed with GSM before about this, but this makes sense.

Similarly, on Battle of Gods, everyone saw how Vegeta (stated by Roshi to surpass Goku) was completely inneficient in overwhelming Beerus... yet they were all happy once Goku got there, despite knowing he wasn't up there battle power-wise. Why? They just have a special fait on Goku, for some reason. Bulma even stated to future Trunks that Goku seems like a guy you can count in no matter what. It1s no surprise Trunks would still want to wait for Goku.

So yours "Trunks thought Piccolo was wrong" is bunky.

But yeah you just kind of discredited yourself unless you think Vegeta just totally blows out Trunks (which was never implied). Trunks has to have vastly improved.

I didn't contradict myself, because I admitted some posts ago that Trunks has in fact improved. I just don't think that Trunks is close to the future androids, which is what I'm arguing against. I have future #17 > Future #18 > Vegeta SSJ > Trunks SSJ.

The Daizenshuu also supports this idea by stating the androids from Trunks' timeline were just somewhat below the present ones.

So yeah there's huge internal inconsistencies and broken logic in your view while none in mine.

Quite the contrary, actually. You have to assume that Trunks chose not to believe Piccolo's words, that Trunks was referring to his first confrontation against the androids and so on.

 

[Victorious]

Because Trunks flat out heard Piccolo saying "Vegeta's stronger than Goku"... Piccolo spoke it to Trunks and Trunks was still in denial about them facing the androids without Goku. So according to you shitty logic, Trunks would be contradicting Vegeta's chance by sayiing he himself from the Trunks saga was no match... whereas he knows Vegeta is >>> himself from the Mecha saga. So your completely illogical narrative wants to turn Trunks into a desperate and irrational guy. He is considering his last bout against the androids when he was no match... not a post bout in which he was sent to the hospital. That's dumb.

I've already addressed this. Just hearing something doesnt mean you believe it. Cell heard Goku say a raged Gohan could crush him, but he didnt believe it until he saw it. I don't turn Trunks into a moron at all that can't put 2 and 2 together. I think he doest truly believe Piccolo, and that's shown by his total underestimation of Vegeta. You do know Vegeta died in battle in the future timeline don't you? The Vegeta that Trunks totally underestimated is only marginally stronger than FP Goku. So the idea that Trunks totally believes that Vegeta is stronger than a 3 years trained Goku is unwarranted based on how Trunks reacts to Vegeta's power later on in the fight with #18 and on how he is ordering Vegeta to wait for Goku.



Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.3-6
Trunks: “Am-amazing! I hadn’t realized that father was this strong…! To think that he’s able to fight on par with that outrageous android…!”
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

He's amazed at Vegeta's true power.


He also is depending upon Goku, and doesnt want to take on the Androids without Goku.

Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P5.1
Context: after Trunks says they have to wait for Goku to get better before taking the androids on
Vegeta: “There’s no need for us to wait for Kakarot! Maybe you can’t tell, but I’ve become a Super Saiyan. As long as we’re both Super Saiyans, I the prince will definitely be several levels stronger than a guy like him…!

aga. Trunks was standing right there to Piccolo, saw Piccolo commenting how Vegeta has surpassed Goku and still thought that he had no chance against the androids because he himself as a SSJ was absolutely no match -- and as a way to convey how Vegeta's chances are null, he likely was referring to a confrontation in which his power was decent.

And yet Trunks seems to think with Goku they have a chance, and Goku's chances arent null. So you're not making any sense.

Assumption. No need to believe Trunks didn't believe Piccolo. Unless we've a comment from Trunks questioning Piccolo's words, Vegeta > Goku still should remain something to be believed in Trunks's mind.

It's not an assumption caused it's based on evidence. If Trunks could fight them fairly well then if he thinks Vegeta is stronger than himself and even Goku then Vegeta should be a good match for them. But he doesnt think that, he's counting on Goku not Vegeta.

Vegeta (real power) > Vegeta (Trunks' estimations) > Goku.

He still wished to wait for Goku, for some reason... I think this had to do with how much Bulma made Goku to be an unbelievable guy on his story... or because streaking together with another SSJ would be helpful.

[/quote]

And Goku would have to be > Trunks, right?

So now we get according to you

Vegeta (real power) > Vegeta (Trunks' estimations) > Goku (Trunks estimation) > Trunks (Android saga)


So care to make that work with Trunks still rivaling Vegeta [true power]? As your very quote below suggest Trunks "shouldnt be that different" from Vegeta.

If you can make that work, i have no problem with that view.


Anywho What are we even arguing about anymore? Or are you just arguing just to argue and you don't even know? You already conceded Trunks has 2 powers and he's vastly powered up from the Mecha Freeza saga. So you've already conceded the main point of this thread and my main disagreement, as that logic has obviously been shown to have internal inconsistencies and is broken. Now you're just trying to argue about a few percentage points or the rather trivial aspect about whether Trunks believed Piccolo or not? who cares

All i'll say about that, is Trunks doesnt seem to be treating Vegeta like he's superior to Goku, it's the vice versa. And for me that works just fine considering he underestimated Vegeta until very late in the fight.

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.3-6
Trunks: “Am-amazing! I hadn’t realized that father was this strong…! To think that he’s able to fight on par with that outrageous android…!”
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

Are you saying that comment from Trunks just implies he underestimated Vegeta by like 3% power? Vegeta was like a 97 now he's a 100? Mehh that's lame. He calls Vegeta amazing and their are multiple exclamations in that sentence. Sounds to me he totally underestimated Vegeta.


I guess something like this for you?

Vegeta true power : 100
Vegeta Trunks estimation : 97
Goku trunks estimation : 95
Trunks : 90

Future Androids Trunks thinks Vegeta has no chance against but Trunks can fight fairly well : 120?


My view is better IMO

Vegeta true power : 100
Goku Trunks estimation : 95
Trunks : 90
Vegeta Trunks estimation : 75-80

Future Androids Trunks thinks Vegeta has no chance against but Trunks can fight fairly well : 100


After all, the Vegeta that Trunks thinks is amazing is only marginally stronger than FP Goku.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Context: talking about how Trunks and co. lost to the androids
Tenshinhan: “[Trunks] is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…He definitely can’t win…! Not even Goku…”

They just seem to hold Goku on a special pedestal for some reason. I had disagreed with GSM before about this, but this makes sense.

Clearly as far as power is concerned not that high regard since he says Goku's not very different from Trunks or Vegeta and thinks Goku has no shot vs the Androids.


But anyway, this post of mine is just about trivial disagreements. The real issue was settled, Trunks has 2 vastly different powers. He's "not that different" from a 3 year trained Goku.

3 years trained Goku >= Future Trunks [Android saga] >>> Yardrat Goku >> Future Trunks [Mecha Freeza saga]

 

[p123]

He's rating Vegeta based on emotional history. He assumes they can't win unless Goku is there. He doesn't realize Vegeta is strong until he actually tangles with an android going all out. It's not based on his perception of anyone's abilities, just how bad he got his ass kicked and how well Vegeta did.

 

[Victorious]

He's rating Vegeta based on emotional history. He assumes they can't win unless Goku is there. He doesn't realize Vegeta is strong until he actually tangles with an android going all out. It's not based on his perception of anyone's abilities, just how bad he got his ass kicked and how well Vegeta did.

I agree, anyway Ahill's #s don't work. Plus he's already conceded the main issue so I don't even get what he's on about now.

Trunks just didnt realize how damn powerful Vegeta was. He's literally amazed at Vegeta's power.

I think SSJ Trunks + SSJ Vegeta + Piccolo would possibly beat the Future Androids.


My numbers

Future #17 : 100
Future #18 : 100

vs

SSJ Vegeta : 100
SSJ Future Trunks : 90
Piccolo : 80

They might be able to pull it off. If Piccolo and Trunks 2 on 1 one of them Vegeta may be able to hold his own. The Infinite Stamina though could be a major problem.


If you throw in healthy Goku though it's a wrap for the good guys

Future #17 : 100
Future #18 : 100

vs

SSJ Vegeta : 100
SSJ Future Trunks : 90
SSJ Goku : 95
Piccolo : 80


But they all get totally wrecked by the present Androids

Android #18 : 140
Android #17 : 155

 

[p123]

Yeah, it's possible. I just wonder how Vegeta does vs an Androids equal to his level. Remember how Piccolo fared? Piccolo was wearing down. Perhaps he intended on using the Light Grenade to finish the job?

Piccolo and Trunks on Future 18 would definitely bring her down. That's Vegeta vs Zarbon/Dodoria right there. And if they finished 18, then they could all team up on 17 as Vegeta wore down with his match. I think your crew gets it done.

With Goku, it's all the more easy.

Goku/Vegeta vs Future 17/18, that would be intense to watch. But I gotta think the 2 Saiyans can get it done, infinite energy is no joke though.

 

[Victorious]

I've got Zarbon 91 and Dodoria 83 to Vegeta's 100. I think it might be a little harder for Piccolo and Trunks vs a Future Android, and Vegeta vs Zarbon and Dodoria doesnt have infinite Stamina. So it's going to be very tough, but I think they can do it. Without question though with Goku the team wins 10 out of 10 times.

Though 4 on 2 vs the present Androids probably lose 10 out of 10 times.

 

[ahill1]

[mention]Victorious[/mention]

But anyway, this post of mine is just about trivial disagreements. The real issue was settled, Trunks has 2 vastly different powers. He's "not that different" from a 3 year trained Goku.

Yeah, I agree pretty much. I think the Trunks that went back to the past the 2nd time is superior compared to the one that gave Goku the medicine. Trunks stated he didn't even know if he'd have the chance to help the Z warriors because his time machine takes a long time to charge. I think he'd train in the meantime. My disagreement lies more on Trunks being close to the future androids (I have evidence for this) and on Trunks calling in Piccolo's words and believing Vegeta > Goku, although yeah, I agree that the last point isn't so important to argue about. I just think that Trunks still treats Goku as the key for the salvation of the future even though he might have been surpassed by Vegeta. In the BoG movie, everyone was happy when Goku got there (with even some additive comments like "Goku, that's amazing"), even though everyone saw how the Vegeta who completely outclassed Goku failed to overwhelm Beerus. Don't you think this special faith Trunks seems to place on Goku might be explainable despite the fact that he knows Vegeta might be stronger than Goku?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1
Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18
Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

That statement is from the Androids Arc

I'm thinking Trunks holding his own fairly well is supposed to be taken in another way. Something like "Even I could hold my own fairly well [compared to this...]". Laters statements imply he was still shit to the Androids:

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P5.1
Cell: “I’ll definitely get hold of No.17 and No.18! Even if you guys try to stop me from reaching my perfect form, it won’t do any good! Not if Piccolo is the only one able to put up a bit of a good fight against No.17 and No.18!”

Chapter: 420 (DBZ 226), P2.3
Context: after Trunks tells Cell he’ll defeat him
Cell: “Trunks…All of your data has been scanned by the spy robot…With your power, you couldn’t possibly defeat No.17 or No.18, let alone me…”

Spoiler

We still got a problem here, though. Story of Trunks implies SSJ Trunks is about half as strong as the future twins (As Gohan, his equal, wasn't sure if he could take on #17 and #18 together while believing his <50% was his FP). But Present #17 is 2x Piccolo... Wouldn't that mean Kamiccolo < Future #17 if Trunks was still the same for all the arc?

 

[Victorious]

Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1
Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18
Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

That statement is from the Androids Arc

I'm thinking Trunks holding his own fairly well is supposed to be taken in another way. Something like "Even I could hold my own fairly well [compared to this...]". Laters statements imply he was still shit to the Androids:

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P5.1
Cell: “I’ll definitely get hold of No.17 and No.18! Even if you guys try to stop me from reaching my perfect form, it won’t do any good! Not if Piccolo is the only one able to put up a bit of a good fight against No.17 and No.18!”

Chapter: 420 (DBZ 226), P2.3
Context: after Trunks tells Cell he’ll defeat him
Cell: “Trunks…All of your data has been scanned by the spy robot…With your power, you couldn’t possibly defeat No.17 or No.18, let alone me…”

Spoiler

We still got a problem here, though. Story of Trunks implies SSJ Trunks is about half as strong as the future twins (As Gohan, his equal, wasn't sure if he could take on #17 and #18 together while believing his <50% was his FP). But Present #17 is 2x Piccolo... Wouldn't that mean Kamiccolo < Future #17 if Trunks was still the same for all the arc?

Dude, those statements by Cell are regarding the Androids from Cell's timeline...not the Future Trunks timeline. Cell comes from his own distinct timeline.

In Cell's timeline they're as strong as the present timeline. The line about Piccolo (who is Kamiccolo at this point) proves that. So there's no problem here.

Androids 17 & 18 Main timeline = Androids 17 & 18 Cell timeline >>> Androids 17 & 18 Future Trunks timeline.