An attempt at trying to quantify Janemba

Natasha Romanoff

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From what we are shown, Janemba isn't strong enough to tank SSJ3 Goku's attacks:
IMG_20221113_112344.jpg

However, since SSJ3 Goku is untested against any form of Super Buu, we can't tell for sure whether Super Buu would be able to tank SSJ3 Goku.

His blasts are shown to be powerful enough to damage this Goku:
IMG_20221113_112948.jpg

Janemba seems to be taking his time and toying with Goku, his blast from the mouth pushed him back similar to how SSJ3 Gotenks did it with Super Buu.

Once this occurs, Janemba takes advantage during the whole fight. Even though, the blast from Goku impacted him, it didn't manage to do much:
IMG_20221115_205314.jpg

Janemba is able to make Goku bleed and after that happens, Goku had no other choice but to escape, managing to finally defeat Goku.

Something which is used to prove that he isn't too powerful is the fact that he got pushed back by SSJ2 Vegeta:
IMG_20221115_205135.jpg

However, there are many examples in which a less than 4x (if not more) gap is enough to be able to tank; 2nd form Freeza tanking Vegeta's hit by surprise, SSJ Goku tanking 50% Freeza's blast, 18 tanking SSJ Trunks' sword, Semi Perfect Cell tanking 16's punch, Perfect Cell tanking Vegeta's kick, and a whole lot of etcetera, which implies that:

1-Janemba's durability isn't linear with his power level
2-Janemba is suppresing himself
3-Janemba is using different levels of effort against either Goku and Vegeta

However, Janemba is able to defeat him when he tries a little bit harder (which doesn't say much as he was weaker than Fat Buu or even Good Buu).

Goku states that he has never seen anyone as strong as him before, as well as there is one way to defeat him, which relies on Fusion:
IMG_20221115_204332.jpg

Vegeta is implied to be weaker than Goku, however this could also be interpreted by the fact that Goku has SSJ3 while Vegeta doesn't, but, Goku stated he has been training which brings the possibility of Goku growing stronger:
IMG_20221115_204552.jpg

It's implied that Goku and Vegeta's ki now are the same which implies that Goku was stronger than Vegeta even on equal forms:
IMG_20221113_105317.jpg

It is reinforced that only Gogeta can defeat him:
IMG_20221113_110022.jpg

From the short fight he had with Gogeta, we can tell that he can't at least observe his movements, which doesn't require that big of a gap as Vegeta could barely see Kaioken x3 Goku back on the Saiyan saga. However, do we get to see Gogeta's full exent of speed? We can't determine for sure, his appearance was just in a blink of an eye. Then is shown that Gogeta can tank Janemba's punch as if nothing (a punch in which Janemba seems damn serious), as well as evaporate him completely with just a energy bullet:
IMG_20221115_205749.jpg

Even though, Gogeta seemed too serious against Janemba, it's pretty much the case that Gogeta could've killed Janemba completely, however, he was still aware that he was a kid who was transformed into a monster so his docile and soft mind of Goku also may have infered on his actions, which gives the possibility that he wasn't using his full effort against him.

If we take into account the idea that Base Fusion is stronger than its components, then the gap between Janemba and Gogeta is massive, considering that Janemba doesn't even have that big of a gap over SSJ3 Goku, is possible that even Base Gogeta could've been enough; SSJ Gogeta is beyond overkill.

Now, how strong does Janemba needs to be in relation to SSJ3 Goku? How much stronger is SSJ3 Goku from Movie 12 in relation to his Buu Saga self? That's up to you to decide.

Thanks for reading the post and I expect you to have enjoyed it, you can share your thoughts/opinions on this, it will be a pleasure reading you :D.
1866-0eea57cd457628f0ce855d617c75b6c8.jpg
 
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Dagon

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With SSJ3 Goku being close enough for Janemba not to tank, but Gogeta needs SSJ to beat Janemba, we could take this as Gogeta is scaled from the much weaker Vegeta, which Goku had to match.

Janemba could be as strong or stronger than Super Buu, even considering Super Buu as being 400x early Buu arc SSJ3 Goku, going by the Gotenks base pose > SSJ Pre route. This wouldn't effect Gogeta's scaling in Movie 12 because Vegeta should be the same as Majin Vegeta upon his death. Goku could have become substantially stronger, even encroaching on SSJ3 Gotenks level, but that amound of power wouldn't factor into Gogeta, since Goku had to lower his power to Vegeta's level to fuse.

Movie 12 Goku could be dozens of times stronger than early Buu arc Goku but he would need to be at least twice as strong to defeat Janemba, and he can't do that on his own, so he powers down to fuse with Vegeta and together their powers are multiplied dozens or hundreds of times, which allows SSJ Gogeta to surpass Janemba.

This is how I see it.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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With SSJ3 Goku being close enough for Janemba not to tank, but Gogeta needs SSJ to beat Janemba, we could take this as Gogeta is scaled from the much weaker Vegeta, which Goku had to match.
But, is still a possibility that Gogeta didn't need SSJ to defeat Janemba, his superiority was completely overwhelming over him. Base Gotenks felt more confident on defeating Fat Buu despite of knowing how outclassed SSJ Goten and Trunks were, I don't think Toei would change that to nerf Gogeta, Gogeta while in base has to be much stronger than SSJ3 Goku, who Janemba is not that far ahead.
Janemba could be as strong or stronger than Super Buu, even considering Super Buu as being 400x early Buu arc SSJ3 Goku, going by the Gotenks base pose > SSJ Pre route. This wouldn't effect Gogeta's scaling in Movie 12 because Vegeta should be the same as Majin Vegeta upon his death. Goku could have become substantially stronger, even encroaching on SSJ3 Gotenks level, but that amound of power wouldn't factor into Gogeta, since Goku had to lower his power to Vegeta's level to fuse.

Movie 12 Goku could be dozens of times stronger than early Buu arc Goku but he would need to be at least twice as strong to defeat Janemba, and he can't do that on his own, so he powers down to fuse with Vegeta and together their powers are multiplied dozens or hundreds of times, which allows SSJ Gogeta to surpass Janemba.

This is how I see it.
Why? Metamoran Fusion's multiplier is implied to be greater than Namekian Fusion in the anime, in which lowering powers is not needed. Also, Goku is implied to still be weaker than Fat Buu as an SSJ2, as he acknowledged Janemba due to being the second one who push him to go SSJ3 after Fat Buu, and it also depends at how strong you have Gotenks compared to Goku and Vegeta, because I don't believe the whole Gotenks stuff people often believe.

Also, why do you think that SSJ Gogeta was actually needed to defeat Janemba?
 

Dagon

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But, is still a possibility that Gogeta didn't need SSJ to defeat Janemba, his superiority was completely overwhelming over him. Base Gotenks felt more confident on defeating Fat Buu despite of knowing how outclassed SSJ Goten and Trunks were, I don't think Toei would change that to nerf Gogeta, Gogeta while in base has to be much stronger than SSJ3 Goku, who Janemba is not that far ahead.
The common trend is that people use a form that was needed. Using a form unnecessarily is the exception.

Why? Metamoran Fusion's multiplier is implied to be greater than Namekian Fusion in the anime, in which lowering powers is not needed. Also, Goku is implied to still be weaker than Fat Buu as an SSJ2, as he acknowledged Janemba due to being the second one who push him to go SSJ3 after Fat Buu, and it also depends at how strong you have Gotenks compared to Goku and Vegeta, because I don't believe the whole Gotenks stuff people often believe.

Also, why do you think that SSJ Gogeta was actually needed to defeat Janemba?
Namekian fusion may be quite low. The Legend of Manga said Piccolo multiplied his power 5x by absorbing nail and in the Androids saga there's not indication that it needs to be even as high as 5x with Kami. But to your point, you could use that to say base Gogeta is >5x SSJ3 Goku but I'd say not a SSJ3 Goku scaled from being equivalent to Vegeta.
 

Eternal

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Thoughts?
 

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GreatSaiyaman123

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Janemba seems to do a power-up when he sees Super Gogeta. I think that explains why SSJ3 Goku could fight back a bit: Janemba was just toying with him.


Thoughts?

@Pakl low resolution but I think you might like this. Confirmation from the man himself on how the movies fit into the timelines.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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The common trend is that people use a form that was needed. Using a form unnecessarily is the exception.
Vegeta used Grade 2 against Semi Perfect Cell, which Trunks considered unnecesary right off the bat, also SSJ Trunks proved to be stronger than Semi Perfect Cell in the anime.

Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P3.1-2
Context: as Vegeta is about to fight second form Cell
Trunks: “Father intends to ‘become’ that right off the bat…! [Become] that…!”

But, I can think many reasons as to why Gogeta used SSJ against Janemba, it could be due to wanting to avenge Pikkon... or if we want to go by merchandise, SSJ is the most iconic transformation on the entire franchise, that is also reflected on why Goku used SSJ to push back the Genkidama on Kid Buu.
Namekian fusion may be quite low. The Legend of Manga said Piccolo multiplied his power 5x by absorbing nail and in the Androids saga there's not indication that it needs to be even as high as 5x with Kami. But to your point, you could use that to say base Gogeta is >5x SSJ3 Goku but I'd say not a SSJ3 Goku scaled from being equivalent to Vegeta.
Hmm... interesting. Piccolo came from being weaker than 1st form Freeza to surpass his 2nd form, then he came from being trash to SSJs to match blow for blow with Android 17, also he previously described it as a super power up.

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P2.3
Context: talking about fusing with God
Piccolo: “It won’t be fusion. You’ll be nothing more than a trigger for me to achieve a super power up…The only advantage for you existing now is the dragonballs…”

Even then, I don't trust that guide that much considering that is said that Shin is equal to CG SSJ Goku.
Janemba seems to do a power-up when he sees Super Gogeta. I think that explains why SSJ3 Goku could fight back a bit: Janemba was just toying with him.

It was never stated to be a power-up, but pretty much, Janemba's movements doesn't seem to be putting that much effort against Goku, Vegeta or Pikkon, but his movements reflects effort with Gogeta.
 
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Pakl

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Janemba seems to do a power-up when he sees Super Gogeta. I think that explains why SSJ3 Goku could fight back a bit: Janemba was just toying with him.




@Pakl low resolution but I think you might like this. Confirmation from the man himself on how the movies fit into the timelines.
What?
 

Pakl

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Janemba seems to do a power-up when he sees Super Gogeta. I think that explains why SSJ3 Goku could fight back a bit: Janemba was just toying with him.




@Pakl low resolution but I think you might like this. Confirmation from the man himself on how the movies fit into the timelines.
Another supportive evidence for what I've been saying. If you check out the where thr manga was 6 months prior to each movie's release, you can see it was during the arc I compared each movie to.
 

Omhig

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Fat Janemba is already stronger than Super Buu so Super Janemba will stomp him. I'd place Super on like the level of Buutenks.
 

Omhig

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^take that back. Janemba is stronger than Hirudegarn so he should be like Buuhan level atleast.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Super Janemba > Hirudegarn is only possible if we take M13 Goku = M12 Goku, since that website entry was comparing Janemba and Hirudegarn's perfomances.

Is that possible? Goku being the same strength in two movies? We already a precedent for that with M6 and M7 at least.
 

SIAD

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Goku SSJ3 (M13) is >>>>>>>>>>> Goku SSJ3 (M12).
 

Dagon

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Vegeta used Grade 2 against Semi Perfect Cell, which Trunks considered unnecesary right off the bat, also SSJ Trunks proved to be stronger than Semi Perfect Cell in the anime.

Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P3.1-2
Context: as Vegeta is about to fight second form Cell
Trunks: “Father intends to ‘become’ that right off the bat…! [Become] that…!”

But, I can think many reasons as to why Gogeta used SSJ against Janemba, it could be due to wanting to avenge Pikkon... or if we want to go by merchandise, SSJ is the most iconic transformation on the entire franchise, that is also reflected on why Goku used SSJ to push back the Genkidama on Kid Buu.

Hmm... interesting. Piccolo came from being weaker than 1st form Freeza to surpass his 2nd form, then he came from being trash to SSJs to match blow for blow with Android 17, also he previously described it as a super power up.

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P2.3
Context: talking about fusing with God
Piccolo: “It won’t be fusion. You’ll be nothing more than a trigger for me to achieve a super power up…The only advantage for you existing now is the dragonballs…”

Even then, I don't trust that guide that much considering that is said that Shin is equal to CG SSJ Goku.
For anyone without Kaio-Ken a sudden increase up to 5x would be super.

That guide has interviews from Toriyama and lots of behind-the-scenes info. Apparently the publishers had ample contact with Shueisha and Toriyama.
 

Eternal

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EML also said 2nd Form Frieza is 2x 1st Form Frieza (aka 2nd Form Frieza = 1,060,000), so Piccolo with a base PL somewhere in the 200 thousands and getting 5x stronger seems fit ig.
 

Papasmurf

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Piccolo had 40 ton weights on during the 6 days he trained :troll
 

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