Android 19/20 Powers

[ahill1]

So even after absorbing a lot of Vegeta's power, #19 still didn't get back to his post KHH power?

 

[ahill1]

Thinking again, I think #19 (post Vegeta beating) should be dragged down to below his base/pre absorptions power, considering even after absorbing a lot of Vegeta's power he doesn't seem a match for a power we agree to be around #19 post KHH (#20 pre). I think #19 absorbing most of Vegeta's power (remember: it took Vegeta from >>> 20 post to << 20 pre) would increase his powers a lot more than absorbing Goku's KHH.

 

[p123]

Yes, that seems the case. Like I said, it's clear that Gero cannot beat Goku. 19 Post gains enough power to at least rival Goku somewhat. So for 20 to be >> Drained Vegeta, that means 19 Pre Drain must be ridiculously weaker than he started out. Vegeta must have done some insane amount of damage when he hit him into the ground. To make this all work of course.

Ssj Vegeta >> Ssj Goku > 19 Post > 20 Pre > 19 Pre > Ssj Vegeta (Drained) > 19 Post Drain >>> 19 Pre Drain

Yea, when they absorb the person, it seems they get better bang for their buck. Meanwhile, when they absorb ki, it seems they only absorb the ki put into the blast, not the blasts power itself or else they would be stupendously strong.

 

[ahill1]

Agreed, Goku's KMHMH seems to have at least some sort of amplification on it, so if #19 absorbed all the power of it he would end up >>> sick SSJ Goku, which is probably not the case.

How would you represent this whole scenarion in numbers? Including everything.

19 pre 360
~post KHH 450
~post vegeta beating 240
~post vegeta's energy 320

Vegeta SSJ 800
~post draining 360
~post BBA 320

#20 pre 425
~post absorptions 500

Piccolo 600

Does it sound fair?

Realistically though, even if android #19 were THAT weakened, absorbing a power that took Vegeta from >>> 20 post to << even 19 pre should have let him pretty relevant...

 

[p123]

Super Saiyan Vegeta 1,000
Super Saiyan Goku 975
Super Saiyan Trunks 925
Piccolo 825
Android 20 (Post Absorption) 675
Super Saiyan Goku (Sick) 650
Android 19 (Post Absorption) 600
Android 20 550
Super Saiyan Goku (Post KHH) 525
Android 19 450
Super Saiyan Vegeta (Post Drain) 400
Android 19 (Post Drain) 350
Android 19 (Heavily Damaged) ???


Honestly, this is the hardest chain to do in the entire fucking series. And getting 19 low enough is a mathematical impossibility.

 

[Pyro]

Where do Yardsale Goku and initial Trunks fit into this?

 

[Pyro]

Yardrat Goku getting his ass kicked by 19 Pre has no effect on anything. The legend of the Androids is that they would wipe the floor with them in 3 years, even if they trained hard. That' what they are heading into it thinking.

19 Pre is already pretty damn close to Goku, there's no way 19 is weaker than Yardrat Goku, that's madness.

Then how does Piccolo have any confidence in himself if he's not truly sure how strong the androids should be?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I like those levels.

 

[p123]

Yea they are probably the best we've seen for the situation, that shit really made me rack my brain. What a pain in the ass. They still need to be tweaked a bit though...

KP, Piccolo is confident in his power, but he has a bad premonition. In terms of power, I don't see why 19 wouldn't be stronger than Yardrat Goku.

They are sold as monsters beyond Goku's comprehension. I don't think someone 1.5x Yardrat Goku is beyond his comprehension do you?

 

[p123]

Alright, I think I got it. This is an improvement over the last one's, still needs some very minor, minor tweaking. But damn, this shit is good. It looks like I've been able to resolve majority of these pesky Android issues here. Alright, check em out...


Super Saiyan Vegeta 250,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku 240,000,000
Super Saiyan Trunks 230,000,000
Piccolo 200,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku (Sick) 165,000,000
Android 20 (Post Blast, Piccolo) 160,000,000
Android 20 (Post Blast) 154,000,000
Android 19 (Post Absorption) 150,000,000
Android 20 (Post Yamcha) 140,500,000
Android 20 (Initial) 140,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku (Post KHH) 135,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta (Post Drain) 125,000,000
Android 19 (Initial) 125,000,000
Android 19 (Post Drain) 100,000,000
Vegeta 5,000,000
Goku 4,800,000
Trunks 4,600,000
Piccolo (Suppressed) 4,000,000
Gohan 2,000,000
Krillen 1,250,000
Tien 750,000
Yamcha 500,000

 

[p123]

Super Saiyan Vegeta 1,000
Super Saiyan Goku 975
Super Saiyan Trunks 925
Piccolo 850
Android 20 (Post Absorption) 700
Super Saiyan Goku (Sick) 650
Android 19 (Post Absorption) 600
Android 20 550
Super Saiyan Goku (Post KHH) 525
Android 19 450
Super Saiyan Vegeta (Post Drain) 450


Simplified it and made Piccolo even stronger. Couple of options here to play with.

 

[Vertical]

Where do [Yardrat] SSJ Goku and [Initial] SSJ Trunks stand in comparison?

 

[p123]

I'm not sure. We have to do the Future Saga and Trunks Saga to have a more realistic view on it. I am working on them now. It's tough depending on how serious you take Future 17's statement.

 

[ahill1]

Sounds good p. And I like the theory of #19 losing quite a lot of power after Vegeta's beating. One thing that would reinforce this theory even more: If post BBA Vegeta were above #19 post absorptions, how would Piccolo and Vegeta be sure this latter would lose easily? As far as they know, #20 didn't show anything that would put him way, way above #19 pre, other than an attack that didn't even injury a heavily suppressed Piccolo. In order for Piccolo to be sure of Vegeta's loss I'd think he had to have fallen at least to #19 pre absorptions power.

 

[Pyro]

I liked the last list better.

 

[p123]

Good point. All we know about 20's power is that he's stronger than 19's initial power and weaker than Goku's power, most likely by a good margin. As I said before, I think Post Absorption 19 has him beat, by a bit. Why mention 19 being greedy, if he was still in control?

Super Saiyan Goku > Android 19 Post > Android 20 > Android 19

Is how I would have it. Also, ahill, to make the theory complete, their is some loss in power throughout the absorption process. That's the only way to explain Vegeta's severe loss and 19's huge gain and still have Vegeta > 19. So their absorption method is not perfect and the ki's bio-availability is not 100%. Which is completely logical as well. We clearly see it with the blasts, their improvements are small in comparison to what the blast's actual power level would be.

Man, no matter how much time you put in this shit, you always find out something you missed. Motherfucker.

That's fine KP, at least now we have a good standard with what to deal with. Personal tastes will always bring variation, but now we have a guidelines on these pesky fucks. Many a list has been ruined by these guys.

 

[ahill1]

Yamcha 8,000,000
Tenshinhan 12,000,000
Kuririn 18,000,000
Gohan 30,000,000
Piccolo [suppressed] 60,000,000
Freeza [100%] 235,000,000
Goku SSJ [Namek] 250,000,000
Mecha Freeza 260,000,000
Android #19 [post beating and vegeta's energy] 300,000,000
Vegeta SSJ [post drain] 360,000,000
Android #19 [initial] 360,000,000
Future Gohan SSJ [1 arm] 360,000,000
Trunks SSJ [Mecha saga] 400,000,000
Android #20 [initial] 432,000,000
Android #20 [post Yamcha] 440,000,000
Goku SSJ [Yardrat saga] 440,000,000
Android #19 [post KMHMH and Goku's base] 450,000,000
Android #20 [post Vegeta's blast] 460,000,000
Goku SSJ sick 510,000,000
Android #20 [post Piccolo's] 520,000,000
Piccolo [full power] 625,000,000
Trunks SSJ [androids] 715,000,000
Goku SSJ [androids] 770,000,000
Vegeta SSJ [androids] 800,000,000
future #18 800,000,000
future #17 800,000,000
Imperfect Cell [Ginger Town] 900,000,000
Imperfect Cell [post Kamiccolo's arm] 960,000,000
Kamiccolo [post arm's regeneration] 1,045,000,000
Kamiccolo [weighted] 1,100,000,000
Android #18 1,100,000,000
Android #17 1,200,000,000
Kamiccolo [full power] 1,250,000,000

 

[ahill1]

Is how I would have it. Also, ahill, to make the theory complete, their is some loss in power throughout the absorption process. That's the only way to explain Vegeta's severe loss and 19's huge gain and still have Vegeta > 19. So their absorption method is not perfect and the ki's bio-availability is not 100%. Which is completely logical as well. We clearly see it with the blasts, their improvements are small in comparison to what the blast's actual power level would be.

That's the thing. Vegeta's loss of power was tremendous, so no matter how weakened #19 was by Vegeta's beating, all the power he sucked from Vegeta should have made him a complete monster. We can explain that by saying their absorption method doesn't work through addition, which is fine seeing how absorbing the KMHMH didn't make #19 into a complete monster. If so, will we also assume #20's power absorption works through addition with Piccolo and Yamcha? This would change his overall power as well.

 

[p123]

Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Although, the way Gero talks about adding Piccolo's power to his own, it sure sounds like he thinks it's a 1 to 1 ratio. But we've seen too much evidence that it is not. This is very similar to our bio-availability with food. That piece of chicken says 25 grams of protein, but we are only capable of absorption rates of like 50% or so.

Realistically speaking as well, this section of the manga would benefit greatly from a 10x Super Saiyan boost. It makes everything work much better, but I for one won't do it as consistency is key. 10x or even 5x made all of the statements work when I've tried it before.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, I even used a 10x multiplier on my list above. If we are working with addition here, then a 10x multiplier would be necessary, otherwise weighted suppressed Piccolo would barely provide a boost for Gero.

I always wanted to make a list with the implications of Gero + Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Gohan and suppressed Piccolo all leading him to surpass Vegeta, or at least put him close enough to squeak out a victory, but Gero saying 2 suppressed Piccolos would do the job sealed the matter to me: he isn't accurate on his estimations.