Android #19 (post absorptions) vs Android #20 (post absorptions)

[Captain Cadaver]

Be that as it may, there's still not really much Vegeta could do if he was superior to Gero unless by a wide margin, coupled with the drain Super Saiyan would have on his stamina. Whilst I don't like bringing the subject of battle power gaps into things at all, it would seem to be pretty hard to fit in the chain of Piccolo being significantly below the SSJs, whilst the drained SSJ Vegeta is below Gero after only absorbing Yamcha's Ki from just using the Big Bang Attack, especially when it didn't seem to deplete his stamina at all against #18.

Not only that, but Piccolo's statement can be called into question when considering he didn't have a good grasp on Gero's power, considering not only did he only bring up having overestimated #20 during their fight, but his words after getting up from the eye laser attack suggested he was offering some pretty high estimation of Gero's power.

 

[p123]

I don't think 19/20 are the ultimate equal powered fighters. What you are implying is that if anyone is on even terms with an absorption model, they will automatically lose. I don't find this to be likely. Sure, they do not suffer fatigue or damage and they can absorb if they touch you. That definitely is a deadly duo, but for the majority of the story, Vegeta, Goku and Piccolo are regarded as geniuses and I believe they would find a way. Piccolo chops off Gero's hands rather quickly and although Piccolo has a strength advantage, it wasn't all that overwhelming.

Perhaps 20 is closer to Vegeta than you are assuming. Plus it seems you are forgetting all of that ki that 19 drained? It wasn't just the BBA that drained him.

Nothing suggests that Piccolo and Vegeta's assumptions were in correct. Always assume a character statement is true unless otherwise contradicted.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That's not what I'm implying, at least not entirely as it wasn't just their own deadliness I referred to but Vegeta's condition. Being in a form that Goku notes as being fairly taxing on Ki consumption compared to their bases is a definite factor to note when compared to someone who only seems to lose power when taking an absolute thrashing like #19 did against Goku is one point in Gero's favour.

That same #19 was still got stomped by Vegeta, so it shouldn't have been by such a staggering amount that he lost. Also, by reducing the distance between (Near Enough) Initial Gero and SSJ Vegeta's full power, there'd be little room between Piccolo and the SSJs numerically. I don't have too much problem with this aspect, but for someone who focuses heavily on things such as battle powers and gaps like yourself, do you really find there to be much room to have SSJs >/>> Piccolo >> Peak Gero >> Initial Gero > Drained Vegeta whilst making Vegeta's loss in power seem reasonable?

"Always assume it as fact unless contradicted" is indeed a good rule to go by and the basis of my doubt in Initial #20 > Drained Vegeta in the first place, that being that Piccolo's perception of Gero at the time of Vegeta's arrival to the battle compared to after Piccolo's actually had a chance to fight Gero.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P2.5
Context: getting up after No.20 shot him
Piccolo: “No matter how strong that guy may be, I can’t be defeated with that level of attack.”

The first part of this statement would seem to suggest Piccolo estimates #20 to at least be on his level, if not even stronger than himself. A stark contrast to Piccolo's statement about either overestimating the androids or underestimating himself. Whilst the statement seems to suggest purely the latter from a meta perspective of the viewer having not realised Piccolo was so strong before this, it doesn't entirely add up in-universe, considering how Piccolo seemed confident to face the androids before the battle.

Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1
Piccolo: “How about it, Son Goku…Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy…”
Goku: “There’s no way I could know that without even seeing them. I’ll answer once I give it a try.”
Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…”

That said, Piccolo definitely seemed to be overestimating #20. Whether it was by a little or a lot is irrelevant, as it calls into question his estimations from an in-universe perspective all the same.

 

[p123]

So you think Vegeta is stronger than 20?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Maybe. Not by too much though. It offers some breathing space in the gap between the SSJs and Piccolo moreso than if placing Gero on such high a pedestal at least. In either case, I wouldn't say Piccolo's estimation was spot on as his estimation of Gero clearly changed in between then and his fight with Gero.

 

[ahill1]

Being in a form that Goku notes as being fairly taxing on Ki consumption compared to their bases is a definite factor to note when compared to someone who only seems to lose power when taking an absolute thrashing like #19 did against Goku is one point in Gero's favour.

Are you referring to Goku's statement made when he was in the RoSaT? Because that's what he said:

Dragon Ball Z, v17-034
Son Goku : All this new mass [referring to the Grade 3] gives me strength, but it kills my speed...it consumes too much energy too. All in all, the regular Super Saiyan is best

Reasoning Goku's line through, he lists two disadvantages inherent to the grade 3 form and then says the regular Super Saiyajin is best. Why'd the SSJ be better compared to the grade forms? Because, unlike such form, it doesn't kill speed and doesn't consume too much energy. He then goes on to say they should make use of the regular SSJ instead, stating they should get rid of that instability and restless feeling, and according to the translation of the latter word, it isn't so linked to stamina and is rather linked to the fact that they aren't so relaxed in the form and are rather driven out by their primal insitinct, which also fits in with Vegeta stating Goku looked so relaxed whilst in Super Saiyajin as soon as he got out of the RoSaT. The SSJ's restlessness was the problem of the form they should fix, not its energy's consuption, and it not consuming as much energy as the grade 3 was a plus for the form, a reason for why Goku opted to work on such form rather than performing the same training Vegeta and Trunks did.

The first part of this statement would seem to suggest Piccolo estimates #20 to at least be on his level,

Piccolo wasn't basing the fact that Vegeta would have lost on his estimations for Gero's powers, but on Vegeta's behavior/on the fact that Vegeta bluffed his way out of the fight. He still couldn't be sure about how exactly strong Gero was considering all this latter performed by then was an attack described by Piccolo as pathetic, but Piccolo's line still finds validity on Vegeta's bluff, as there's no reason Vegeta would resort to, as described by Piccolo, such marvelous bluff, if he could have just defeated Gero there. It wouldn't make sense. While you could argue that Vegeta was also underestimating Gero, such is pretty much questionable given Vegeta showing surprise to Gero's speed when this latter absorbed his blast:


Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P12.3
Context: after No.20 flees
Vegeta: “Damn it all! He’s quicker than I thought…!”

So, in all likelihood, Gero's capabilities (post Vegeta's blast) are already greater than the Saiyajin's estimations for him when he performed that bluff, as there's no reason Vegeta would think Gero's speed is below his estimations for his power, imo.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That's a good point regarding SSJ. I was most likely incorrectly remembering the statement, as I was likely basing it on Vegeta's comment on them not burning Ki, as well as Elder Kaioshin considering the transformation in general a waste of energy.

As for the part about Vegeta's estimations, speed can be a pretty ambiguous thing in Dragon Ball despite the trend of it correlating with power. For instance, Ginyu stating Goku was even faster than him and that Goku's 23k body was faster than him. Assuming he was using #19 as a benchmark, it could be a similar case to with Goku and Ginyu, with Toriyama for once abiding by actual physics in that a skinny man will naturally be faster than a stocky trashcan.

 

[ahill1]

Fair enough.

 

[ahill1]

I'd like to take notice of one thing though. Vegeta initially based his estimation on #19 not being as bad as the rumors on this latter's speed, as he wasn't feeling his hits and was merely observing his movements, much like Kuririn and Yamcha could only base Goku and Ten's strength on their movements as they weren't fighting them. And then, once being punched -- and consequently feeling his strength -- Vegeta noticed that #19 is just as strong as he expected him to be, which implies #19's speed and strength complements each other. So, wouldn't it be a bit weird for Vegeta to expect #20's speed to be considerably lower than his strength specially when this latter is, unlike #19, a rather skinny man? If anything, Vegeta would think #20's speed would be higher than what his strength level would dictate, a la Butta, no?

 

[Victorious]

20 is a possible candidate as one of the Artificial Humans that stomped Trunks and 19 is never considered. 20 is clearly stronger. I thought that was the general consensus anyway?

Are you trying to imply when when Piccolo said "maybe we just got too strong for you" or whatever he was only speaking of Gero and not including 19 in that statement? Cause I don't buy that. I think he was talking in pluralistic terms.

 

[ahill1]

20 is a possible candidate as one of the Artificial Humans that stomped Trunks and 19 is never considered. 20 is clearly stronger. I thought that was the general consensus anyway?

Are you trying to imply when when Piccolo said "maybe we just got too strong for you" or whatever he was only speaking of Gero and not including 19 in that statement? Cause I don't buy that. I think he was talking in pluralistic terms.

Well, it' up for debate. Vegeta flat out stated #19 doesn't match the rumors ("you guys aren't as bad as we thought or something along those lines)... would Piccolo and Vegeta have differing views about the androids' expected strength? If no, why didn't Vegeta consider the possibility of Sick Goku being just too strong and #19 having his power intact? He didn't open other possibilities, unlike Piccolo.

 

[Victorious]

20 is a possible candidate as one of the Artificial Humans that stomped Trunks and 19 is never considered. 20 is clearly stronger. I thought that was the general consensus anyway?

Are you trying to imply when when Piccolo said "maybe we just got too strong for you" or whatever he was only speaking of Gero and not including 19 in that statement? Cause I don't buy that. I think he was talking in pluralistic terms.

Well, it' up for debate. Vegeta flat out stated #19 doesn't match the rumors ("you guys aren't as bad as we thought or something along those lines)... would Piccolo and Vegeta have differing views about the androids' expected strength? If no, why didn't Vegeta consider the possibility of Sick Goku being just too strong and #19 having his power intact? He didn't open other possibilities, unlike Piccolo.

Vegeta's comment applies to both of them as well IMO.
Or else he would have said 19 didn't fit the rumors but 20 did. The same logic goes for Piccolo. He would have singled out one of them if their was a big difference.

 

[ahill1]

Are you trying to imply when when Piccolo said "maybe we just got too strong for you" or whatever he was only speaking of Gero and not including 19 in that statement? Cause I don't buy that. I think he was talking in pluralistic terms.

Well, it' up for debate. Vegeta flat out stated #19 doesn't match the rumors ("you guys aren't as bad as we thought or something along those lines)... would Piccolo and Vegeta have differing views about the androids' expected strength? If no, why didn't Vegeta consider the possibility of Sick Goku being just too strong and #19 having his power intact? He didn't open other possibilities, unlike Piccolo.

Vegeta's comment applies to both of them as well IMO.
Or else he would have said 19 didn't fit the rumors but 20 did.

There's no problem with Vegeta's comment applying to both of them, as all he saw was a #20 that was still likely holding back, or has at least held back his attack on Piccolo.

But with Piccolo, it's somewhat easy to assume it's referring only to #20, as #19 was written off as being one of the described threats by Vegeta. Unless, like I said, Piccolo and Vegeta do have differing view on the androids' strength, or differing expectations as for their strength.

But yeah, I still do find somewhat weird that Piccolo wouldn't be considering both as according to Trunks both were too strong, not just one... I wonder. But many people try to reconcile Vegeta openly stating they aren't as bad with Piccolo still wondering whether they grew too strong as this latter referring to #20 post, whereas Vegeta was referring only to #19 post and #20 pre. As in, #20 is still a candidate to whoop Trunks' ass, whereas #19 isn't (or at least doesn't fit Trunks' description).

 

[Victorious]

Well, it' up for debate. Vegeta flat out stated #19 doesn't match the rumors ("you guys aren't as bad as we thought or something along those lines)... would Piccolo and Vegeta have differing views about the androids' expected strength? If no, why didn't Vegeta consider the possibility of Sick Goku being just too strong and #19 having his power intact? He didn't open other possibilities, unlike Piccolo.

Vegeta's comment applies to both of them as well IMO.
Or else he would have said 19 didn't fit the rumors but 20 did.

There's no problem with Vegeta's comment applying to both of them, as all he saw was a #20 that was still likely holding back, or has at least held back his attack on Piccolo.

But with Piccolo, it's somewhat easy to assume it's referring only to #20, as #19 was wrtting off as being one of the described threats by Vegeta. Unless, like I said, Piccolo and Vegeta do have differing view on the androids' strength, or differing expectations as for their strength.

But yeah, I still do find somewhat weird that Piccolo wouldn't be considering both as according to Trunks both were too strong, not just one... I wonder. But many people try to reconcile Vegeta openly stating they aren't as bad with Piccolo still wondering whether they grew too strong as this latter referring to #20 post, whereas Vegeta was referring only to #19 post and #20 pre. As in, #20 is still a candidate to whoop Trunks' ass, whereas #19 isn't (or at least doesn't fit Trunks' description).

Well Piccolo should have singled out 20 in his statement if he was meaning only 20. He didn't. Both Piccolo and Vegeta's comment applies to both IMO.

 

[ahill1]

That's fair enough, but I think the androids are generally lumped together on most of their statements. For instance, Trunks stated he could fight them fairly well, whereas we know one single android is already enough to defeat him.

Besides, does Vegeta's expectantions not match Piccolo's?

 

[Victorious]

Trunks comment just means he's fought both of them...not necessarily at the same time though. Maybe maybe not.

 

[ahill1]

Maybe maybe not.

That's what the statement would lead us to believe though, because Vegeta flat out states #19 isn't as bad as the rumors, whereas Piccolo thinks they might be up to the rumors. So you either believe the difference on their statements lies on Piccolo's view differing from Vegeta's or on Piccolo referring solely to #20 and this latter being stronger than #19 post, despite the fact that he still used the plural pronoun.

 

[p123]

Again, why is the expected Androids suggested to only be able to whoop Trunks' ass? I don't get it. The Expected Androids can manhandle Yardrat Goku. Why is this so hard to grasp?

Perhaps this is the difference in the statements?

19 Post can only beat up Yardrat Goku solidly, he can't annihilate him. 20 Post can cream Yardrat Goku. Why can't this be the thinking?

Forget about Trunks. He's a nothing. Yardrat Goku is basically a nothing as well.

 

[ahill1]

Again, why is the expected Androids suggested to only be able to whoop Trunks' ass? I don't get it. The Expected Androids can manhandle Yardrat Goku. Why is this so hard to grasp?

Perhaps this is the difference in the statements?

19 Post can only beat up Yardrat Goku solidly, he can't annihilate him. 20 Post can cream Yardrat Goku. Why can't this be the thinking?

Forget about Trunks. He's a nothing. Yardrat Goku is basically a nothing as well.

Okay, that's not the point of this discussion. The point is that Piccolo still groups both androids together when he wonders whether they grew too strong or they weren't as strong as expected. Going solely by his statement, he seems to also consider #19 as able to cram Yardrat Goku, whereas Vegeta kind of dismissed him. Why do you think this happens?

 

[Victorious]

Maybe maybe not.

That's what the statement would lead us to believe though, because Vegeta flat out states #19 isn't as bad as the rumors, whereas Piccolo thinks they might be up to the rumors. So you either believe the difference on their statements lies on Piccolo's view differing from Vegeta's or on Piccolo referring solely to #20 and this latter being stronger than #19 post, despite the fact that he still used the plural pronoun.

Wrong, Vegeta never addressed it to #19 specifically. You're putting words in his mouth. His comment applies to both of them. If his comment applies to only to 19 he would have obviously said as much and singled one of them out. One of you is much stronger than the other etc.