Android #19 (post absorptions) vs Android #20 (post absorptions)

[ahill1]

Maybe maybe not.

That's what the statement would lead us to believe though, because Vegeta flat out states #19 isn't as bad as the rumors, whereas Piccolo thinks they might be up to the rumors. So you either believe the difference on their statements lies on Piccolo's view differing from Vegeta's or on Piccolo referring solely to #20 and this latter being stronger than #19 post, despite the fact that he still used the plural pronoun.

Wrong, Vegeta never addressed it to #19 specifically. You're putting words in his mouth. His comment applies to both of them.

Which again isn't relevant, because we know #20 pre is weaker than #19 post. So if the latter isn't considered as a match for Trunks' story, then #20 pre shouldn't be considered either. Whether Vegeta addressed #19 separately or both of them isn't the point here, the point is that he said #19 post (they, but the statement still applies to #19) isn't as bad as the rumors, whereas Piccolo still stated they might be up to the rumors.

 

[Victorious]

That's what the statement would lead us to believe though, because Vegeta flat out states #19 isn't as bad as the rumors, whereas Piccolo thinks they might be up to the rumors. So you either believe the difference on their statements lies on Piccolo's view differing from Vegeta's or on Piccolo referring solely to #20 and this latter being stronger than #19 post, despite the fact that he still used the plural pronoun.

Wrong, Vegeta never addressed it to #19 specifically. You're putting words in his mouth. His comment applies to both of them.

Which again isn't relevant, because we know #20 pre is weaker than #19 post. So if the latter isn't considered as a match for Trunks' story, then #20 pre shouldn't be considered either. Whether Vegeta addressed #19 separately or both of them isn't the point here, the point is that he said #19 post (they, but the statement still applies to #19) isn't as bad as the rumors, whereas Piccolo still stated they might be up to the rumors.

Piccolo's comment should apply to #19 just as much as it does #20. Like I said neither Piccolo nor Vegeta singled one of the Androids out. Quite simply if they are not close to one another then it would have been proper to single one of them out as being far superior.

 

[p123]

Oh the parameters are definitely relevant ahill. You keep spouting off about incorrect parameters, it's my place to fix that. Which I've accomplished.

This is what you don't understand.

19 Post/20 Pre - Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

You don't seem as terrible as the rumors made out.

19 Post and 20 Pre > Yardrat Goku is completely appropriate here.

The rumors are that Yardrat Goku with 3 years of training, still only gives Trunks a little hope.

Hence, why the parameters are so important, which you FAILED to establish.

 

[Victorious]

Yeah regarding the very absolute minimal, the crew would be expecting someone who can crush Trunks. But it makes sense they would expect someone who could crush Yardrat Goku as well.

 

[ahill1]

Piccolo's comment should apply to #19 just as much as tlad it do #20. Like I said neither Piccolo nor Vegeta singled one of the Androids out. Quite simply if they are not close to one another then it would have been proper to put single one.of them out as being far superior.

Okay, I get this point and I admitted that, wording-wise, this should be the case. But when you look into Piccolo and Vegeta's statement regarding the androids, we see Piccolo still questioning whether they match up to the rumors and Vegeta flat out stating #19 doesn't... which many people take to indicate Piccolo's considering only #20.

Wording-wise? Not really, but that's still a viable explanation for their differing statements, unless you think Vegeta was expecting androids considerably stronger than what Piccolo was.

Btw, now that I have read the original translation, that's what was said:

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

He said they were supposed to be wiped out by them... sure, he is referring to both androids there. But then he wondered whether "you" aren't as strong as we thought... are you sure the "you" is referring to both and not just to #20? Because Vegeta at least stated "you guys" when he made the statement. It's not because he referred to both of them in the first part of his statement that he is still considering both when wondering whether "you" weren't as strong as we thought.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

 

[ahill1]

Oh the parameters are definitely relevant ahill. You keep spouting off about incorrect parameters, it's my place to fix that. Which I've accomplished.

This is what you don't understand.

19 Post/20 Pre - Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

You don't seem as terrible as the rumors made out.

19 Post and 20 Pre > Yardrat Goku is completely appropriate here.

The rumors are that Yardrat Goku with 3 years of training, still only gives Trunks a little hope.

Hence, why the parameters are so important, which you FAILED to establish.

Okay, but why does Vegeta state they aren't as bad whereas Piccolo wonders?

 

[Victorious]

I don't think Yardrat Goku would crush Trunks but I do think he would dominate him.

 

[p123]

Guys, you still are downplaying it! Why, oh why, does it not get through your thick skulls!


Yardrat Goku's current power is what gives him a little hope. As in, he's hoping in 3 years Yardrat Goku will be able to turn into something feasible.

There's a reason he doesn't ask Goku to come back in time with him, he'd just get his ass kicked. Why don't you guys get this? Trunks roughly knows the Future Androids power, that's what he's suggesting. That's what they are expecting.

They are expecting androids that can wipe them out even after 3 years of hard training!

 

[Victorious]

Guys, you still are downplaying it! Why, oh why, does it not get through your thick skulls!


Yardrat Goku's current power is what gives him a little hope. As in, he's hoping in 3 years Yardrat Goku will be able to turn into something feasible.

There's a reason he doesn't ask Goku to come back in time with him, he'd just get his ass kicked. Why don't you guys get this? Trunks roughly knows the Future Androids power, that's what he's suggesting. That's what they are expecting.

They are expecting androids that can wipe them out even after 3 years of hard training!

Well I think an absolute minimum is Androids expected >>> SSJ Future Trunks. Why its an absolute necessity is because Trunks said he was no match and he already fought them. Therefor that chain is an absolute fact.

The further we go beyond that the more cloudy it gets though IMO. What you say of course is perfectly rational but I don't think it's an absolute. The next step is Yardrat Goku and there's no evidence they think Goku as he is ( post Yardrat) would be able to challenge the Androids. So I think at minimum Yardrat Goku << Androids expected. But remember the Future Androids Trunks was talking about are probably only roughly equal to SSJ Vegeta (or perhaps very marginally superior) in the Android saga so I don't think SSJ Vegeta in the Android saga would expect these Androids to be above him. He just says they are not what they were cracked up to be because he can crush them. I think Vegeta was expecting a very intense fight where he might prevail in the end. Instead he's disappointed cause he can crush them both easily.

 

[Victorious]

Piccolo's comment should apply to #19 just as much as tlad it do #20. Like I said neither Piccolo nor Vegeta singled one of the Androids out. Quite simply if they are not close to one another then it would have been proper to put single one.of them out as being far superior.

Okay, I get this point and I admitted that, wording-wise, this should be the case. But when you look into Piccolo and Vegeta's statement regarding the androids, we see Piccolo still questioning whether they match up to the rumors and Vegeta flat out stating #19 doesn't... which many people take to indicate Piccolo's considering only #20.

Wording-wise? Not really, but that's still a viable explanation for their differing statements, unless you think Vegeta was expecting androids considerably stronger than what Piccolo was.

Btw, now that I have read the original translation, that's what was said:

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

He said they were supposed to be wiped out by them... sure, he is referring to both androids there. But then he wondered whether "you" aren't as strong as we thought... are you sure the "you" is referring to both and not just to #20? Because Vegeta at least stated "you guys" when he made the statement. It's not because he referred to both of them in the first part of his statement that he is still considering both when wondering whether "you" weren't as strong as we thought.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

Its pretty obvious both Vegeta and Piccolo's comments apply to both Androids.

 

[ahill1]

Okay, moving on... we can have a third option for such disparity in the comments, can't we?

 

[p123]

You have to combine them. That's what we do all the time. Why would this be different?

19/20 wouldn't be considered the Androids at all if they couldn't at least crush Yardrat Goku.

 

[Victorious]

Considering Sick Goku was kicking #19 pre all around I think #19 and #20 pre could be around Yardrat Goku. Although I have them both post slightly above initial sick Goku.

 

[p123]

Yea, that seems like a good appropriate range.

Sick Goku ~ Post Absorption Androids >> Yardrat Goku ~ Pre Absorption Androids

Seems like a fair range for me.

 

[Victorious]

I can't believe people including myself way back used to have 100% Freeza >> #19 and # 20 post. Like Freeza is even taking 3 blows from the Goku that #19 fought without getting his head caved in.

 

[p123]

Haha I know right. The sensible people were on some Androids Post > Freeza > Androids Pre, hell that was an evolved point of view. Back in the day it was Freeza > Piccolo > Androids Post > Androids Pre right? Damn...

Freeza would get ran over by Trunks. I don't think that fight goes any different. I think he one shots kills Freeza with that sword the same exact way. Or he kicks him in the stomach and then slices him in half.

Freeza would do nothing to 19/20 Pre. It sucks for us Freeza fanboys, but it is what it is.

 

[Victorious]

Don't most the guys on Kanzenahuu still not accept Android arc Piccolo > 100% Freeza? " Ohh Kami mentioned Trunks killed Freeza that means Piccolo can't!" Or "#17 and #18 are the first things shown that can beat a Super Saiyan, only Kamiccolo can"

 

[p123]

Yep. Scumbag, sandbagging logic. That shit is everywhere. Only here do we get a break from it, at least for the most part.

 

[Victorious]

If Piccolo Junior basically the Devil himself, can be far surpassed by Radditz..a mid tier Saiyan whose considered a scrub to Saiyan royalylty. Or if Vegeta on Earth the prince of all Saiyan and Earth buster is no match for Freeza's pink fatso and pretty boy green Fabio wannabe right and left hand henchmen. Then yes Freeza ruler of the galaxy can be passed up by a crazy old nut in his cave who's a sheer genius and his silly mime robot. Point is minor villains of one saga usually exceed (sometimes significantly so) The Super or primary villain of the previous arc.

 

[p123]

Yep, that's the standard. All starts with King Chappa surpassing Tao Pai Pai. If he can do it with his first major villain, of course he will do it with anyone. Literally introduces Tao Pai Pai as an ultimate badass and then boom, Devil Man, Gohan and King Chappa all making that power look like nothing special.

You should do a Dragonball no scouter list like me. I just started it, gotta start it all over to get the amplifications right.